Rulers of Blackmoor

[Havard]

I just read a play report of the never-released DA5 module run by Paul Stormberg at ArneCon 2023 (provided by Klintron in another post - https://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/sho...p?tid=3153 - thanks for that!), and there is again mention of Baron and Lady Jenkins being resident in Blackmoor Castle. While it doesn’t specify that they were the rulers of the castle, it seems to be implied from the context. I understand that Ken Fletcher will be a special guest at DaveCon in April, so hopefully I’ll have a chance to speak with him there and ask him about his map of the castle.

The DA5 material does have Jenkins in charge of the castle as Baron.  I think there is some wiggle room (though I don't yet have a copy of the text) for Jenkins possibly being a caretaker baron for someone else, but he is clearly the baron.  This goes some way in explaining why the Ungulians, and not the Jenkins are in charge of Glendower.  Bascom and Jenkins are not the same person.

May I suggest that this may likely have changed through different drafts of City of Blackmoor? I am only speculating here, but the decision to move the timeline 30 years may have been a late decision after TSR was involved, while Dave was clearly working on a version of the DA series long before that, having considered Mayfair Games and perhaps also others as publishers before TSR agreed to publish the series. 

I am only speculating with regards to the time shift, but what you are citing here clearly contradicts the published versions of DA1-4. 

-Havard

[aldarron]

May I suggest that this may likely have changed through different drafts of City of Blackmoor? I am only speculating here, but the decision to move the timeline 30 years may have been a late decision after TSR was involved, while Dave was clearly working on a version of the DA series long before that, having considered Mayfair Games and perhaps also others as publishers before TSR agreed to publish the series. 

I am only speculating with regards to the time shift, but what you are citing here clearly contradicts the published versions of DA1-4. 

-Havard


I hadn't given the timeline much thought but I think that's an important observation.  If the DA5 materials originated with TSR, even in draft, they should most definitely reflect the  TSR timeline with Uther as a principle character.

[Havard]

I hadn't given the timeline much thought but I think that's an important observation.  If the DA5 materials originated with TSR, even in draft, they should most definitely reflect the  TSR timeline with Uther as a principle character.

Speculating a bit further here. I suspect many outlines of the City of Blackmoor may have been created by Dave over the years. Not all may have been written out, but at the very least they may have existed as in his mind or as rough drafts. In some ways, perhaps even the FFC can be seen as a draft to what Dave may have called the Blackmoor Chronicles.

As years went by, he would have updated this draft. It is not unlikely that each these updates would also have included an extension of the timeline as the years went by and the events played out in the early 1970s became more distant.

While Adventure Games was still a thing, he may have wanted to prepare a document like this for publication.

We know that Dave considered publishing the Blackmoor Chronicles (under that name) with Mayfair Games in the mid 1980s.

I believe that Dave's work on the Blackmoor Chronicles then was revised and sent to TSR a few years later. TSR then sent this manuscript to Dave Ritchie to adapt them into modules with a framework similar to other products for the Classic D&D line in ca 1986. At this time Gary Gygax was ousted from TSR and Bruce Heard was promoted to Product Manager of the Classic D&D line as former editor Frank Mentzer left with Gary and everyone else wanted to work on AD&D.

It is possible that shifting the timeline 30 years ahead was Bruce Heard's idea, but I doubt it. Bruce Heard probably wanted to connect Blackmoor to the Known World (later Mystara) though as he could not afford to split the Classic line into different settings. The time travel plot probably came from him as he had prepared extensive timelines for the shared setting. Although some of this work could have come from Mentzer or more likely Harold Johnson.

So I think the shift from the FFC era Blackmoor to Uther's era either came from Arneson or Ritchie. It could be Ritchie wishing to make room for new PCs instead of having Zvenzen and friends solving every problem, but it could also be Arneson inserting himself as Uther, surrounded by his old friends as NPCs with new heroes emerging. Arneson even speaks about new generations of heroes in the City of the Gods section of the FFC.

City of Blackmoor was the fifth chapter in the Blackmoor Chronicles. I suspect TSR came up with the DA1-5 designation. We also know that a massive manuscript called the Chronicles of Thonia was sold on ebay to an unknown collector several years ago. That manuscript came from TSR's offices and I suspect it was all of DA1-5 in a single document.



-Havard

[aldarron]

I think you are probably not far off the mark Havard but untill I'm able to really parse the mss. its hard to say.  My guess might be that Arneson was given an outline of the DA series as TSR was planning to publish it and asked to provide material for DA5 without being told much else about the changes TSR had made to what he has already submitted.  What I mean is that TSR initially used Arneson's chronicles of Blackmoor material for DA 1-3, and while Ritchie was writing DA4, Arneson may have been preparing, perhaps revising, the mss for DA5.  If we had more information on the Blackmoor Chronicles material it would be helpful - for instance, could the adventures being labeled DA 1-5 actually have been from the Chronicles?

One thing I can say with certainty is that David Ritchie said the time travel idea for DA1 was his.

[Havard]

I think you are probably not far off the mark Havard but untill I'm able to really parse the mss. its hard to say.  My guess might be that Arneson was given an outline of the DA series as TSR was planning to publish it and asked to provide material for DA5 without being told much else about the changes TSR had made to what he has already submitted.  What I mean is that TSR initially used Arneson's chronicles of Blackmoor material for DA 1-3, and while Ritchie was writing DA4, Arneson may have been preparing, perhaps revising, the mss for DA5.  If we had more information on the Blackmoor Chronicles material it would be helpful - for instance, could the adventures being labeled DA 1-5 actually have been from the Chronicles?

One thing I can say with certainty is that David Ritchie said the time travel idea for DA1 was his.

As you say, there are a lot of things we don't know about this process so it is hard to speculate. 

A few things to consider:

• Arneson was talking about the Blackmoor Chronicles before the deal with TSR was made to publish the DA modules. Unless we any outlines sent to Arneson from TSR I am going to assume that Arneson sent TSR his ideas and concepts and then Ritchie was tasked to modify, tweak and revise acccording to TSR's needs. Arneson was then given the final draft for approval. 
  
• Arneson said on many occasions that he was not given a chance to approve DA4 and that he was unhappy with this module. This makes it unlikely that Arneson sent TSR a DA5 manuscript after DA4 was published. To me it seems more likely that he submitted DA5 along with DA4 or even earlier.  
  
• The DA4 situation is interesting to me because so much of DA4 involves repeating information that was already established in DA1 which Arneson had already approved. But I understand that Arneson was miffed about not being consulted on the final product. 
  
• Bruce Heard told me that he had attempted to contact Arneson as he wanted to work with him to flesh out more details etc, but Bruce felt that Arneson was not very interested in talking to him. Bruce was a relative newcomer to TSR ad the time and had just been promoted to product manager of the classic D&D line, but it is possible that Arneson's strained relationship with TSR made him see Bruce as just another TSR exec. I believe it was Bruce who contacted Ritchie and we know that Bruce gave Ritchie some guidelines. I find it interesitng that Ritchie says it was his idea to include Time Travel. I have no reason to doubt that, but I could see this idea being a result of the timeline Bruce Heard sent to his freelancers placing Blackmoor in the past as well as Arneson's descriptions of the Comeback Inn. I do think the main plot in each adventure was largely Ritche's work with Arneson's outlines being more in the line of the Temple of the Frog and the FFC, more focus on background, NPCs, events etc.
  

I agree with you that it would be extremely useful to know more about the Blackmoor Chronicles.

-Havard

[CawmeKrazee]

-Havard

When it comes to the DA5 The City of Blackmoor module that was mentioned here a few years ago 
https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/show...hlight=DA5

did you ever receive the files and turn them into a pdf or something? I'm curious as I took time to look but didn't find anything on it.