Rulers of Blackmoor

[aldarron]

In the case of the Dog Duke and the Bloody Duke, I wonder if they were actually Dukes, or that they were instead Barons. If not, we could take it to mean that Blackmoor was reduced to a Barony after the fiasco with the Bloody Duke, with Vestfold (Earldom) becoming the dominant center of the region.

-Havard

Regardless of who these dukes were, I like that idea a lot. It makes sense that Blackmoor is the "old" capital and Vestfold the new. That shift in power could easily be tied to the growth in size, economy, and importance of Vestfold, while Blackmoor remains an out of the way town.

Regarding the dating of the Bloody Duke, there's a line in ZG's BM Dungeon (area 11-38) that doesn't quite fit your timeline: "Hundreds of years ago they were imprisoned by the "Bloody Duke"..."

Regardless of what you want to make of that, I'm not really feeling that Raddan qualifies as a duke or Baron, as he never had full control of Blackmoor and seems never to have had Imperial support or claim to peerage title in any case.

I've some timeline ideas I'll post later.....

[Havard]

In the case of the Dog Duke and the Bloody Duke, I wonder if they were actually Dukes, or that they were instead Barons. If not, we could take it to mean that Blackmoor was reduced to a Barony after the fiasco with the Bloody Duke, with Vestfold (Earldom) becoming the dominant center of the region.

-Havard

Regardless of who these dukes were, I like that idea a lot. It makes sense that Blackmoor is the "old" capital and Vestfold the new. That shift in power could easily be tied to the growth in size, economy, and importance of Vestfold, while Blackmoor remains an out of the way town.

Thanks! It is possible that the bad reputation Blackmoor gained under the Bloody Duke is what lead to Vestfold becoming an economic center. The fact that the Wizards Cabal uses Vestfold as its base of operations might also have drawn others there. Vestfold is probably at its peak when Ra-All the Wise is promoted to Earl of Vestfold, while the power might swing back to Blackmoor (at least a bit) when Uther moves into the Castle.

Regarding the dating of the Bloody Duke, there's a line in ZG's BM Dungeon (area 11-38) that doesn't quite fit your timeline: "Hundreds of years ago they were imprisoned by the "Bloody Duke"..."

Yeah, its stretching it a bit I guess. 200 years isn't exactly the same as hundreds of years ago, but close. The FFC also states that there was more than one ruler nicknamed the Bloody Duke however, so it could have applied to both Raddan and someone else.

Regardless of what you want to make of that, I'm not really feeling that Raddan qualifies as a duke or Baron, as he never had full control of Blackmoor and seems never to have had Imperial support or claim to peerage title in any case.

It depends on what you consider "Blackmoor". The way I see it, Blackmoor only applies to the whole group of Baronies after Uther's rebellion. Before that Blackmoor is only one Barony among several. Archlis for sure is not under Raddan's control at this time and neither are the demihuman realms, which may in fact never have been part of Thonia.

As to imperial support, I think he may have started out as the Empire's man, but once he got enough power, he was clearly running his own show. I doubt the Empire would have opposed to him going against the Duchy of the Peaks though, or the elves for that matter.

I've some timeline ideas I'll post later.....

I look forward to hearing about your ideas too!

-Havard

[aldarron]

For the record, I've abandoned that Baron Regscott idea in favor of your dog duke story. It fits the material more faithfully.


I like the equation of Raddan Goss to "Bloody Duke" but having taken a closer look at DoCB's level 11, I see a lot of details that seem impossible to fit.

Level 11 has a fair few details about the man, except oddly, for his name.

He's described as a human (Thonian) male with a sadistic love of torture.

His ghost is meglaomaniac and a liar.

He was overpowered by 13 of his victims and guillotined in torture room #13 on the 13th day of the month. His ghost is now terrified of the number 13. (odd detail that, I suspect Arneson's idea).

He claims to have been the "grand creator of the dungeons of Castle Blackmoor" (p184-185). He definetly is responsible for some rooms on level 9 and many on level 11. It would suggest he was an early expander of the dungeons and had controll of all the levels at least down to 11 while he was duke.

Most of that will still fit with Raddan - except for his death. Again oddly, DoCB says its "rumored" that the Bloody Duke was Guilotined but its clear that the rumor is meant to be true, given the ghost has a bloody neck and fears number 13.

Probably, this duke dates to an earlier time in Blackmoor's history.

[aldarron]

In the case of the Dog Duke and the Bloody Duke, I wonder if they were actually Dukes, or that they were instead Barons. If not, we could take it to mean that Blackmoor was reduced to a Barony after the fiasco with the Bloody Duke, with Vestfold (Earldom) becoming the dominant center of the region.
-Havard

Looking at it more closely, I think this really does make a lot of sense. TWC has the newly established Cabal reestablishing ties with Thonia. We can pretty much assume the mage wars destroyed whatever political boundaries and powers existed previously and that the empire/Cabal redrew the lines and established the Baronies we know. Perhaps a handful of the older houses survived.

[Xylarthen]

At the risk of asking a question probably answered elsewhere (although I did a search first, really I did!), did Sir/Baron Jenkins ever hold Blackmoor Castle? We know he was Baron of Glendower at one point, but how about Blackmoor proper?

There are two pieces of possible evidence that could support his being the Baron of Blackmoor Castle for a short time after Baron Fant’s rule, depending on interpretation of these pieces:

First, in Corner of the Table Vol. 4 No. 6, there is a line that reads: “Megarry and Jenkins return to Duane’s castle where Megarry quickly got into trouble and was lost during a dungeon trip in Blackmoor’s depths.”

If “dungeon trip in Blackmoor’s depths” is interpreted to be Blackmoor Castle’s dungeon, then wouldn’t that imply that the castle they returned to was Blackmoor Castle? We know Fant was not Baron of Blackmoor at this time, as COTTv4n6 describes the adventures of the Blackmoor Bunch after being exiled to Loch Gloomen (but also mentions the pardoning of Jenkins and Fant by the Earl of Vestfold after their Loch Gloomen adventures). Another line in the same issue states “…Dave Fant, who has returned to Bramwald…”, so we know Fant did not resume rulership of Blackmoor after his pardoning.

The other interpretation of which dungeon is being referred to could be the Glendower dungeon below Glendower, which we know Jenkins was Baron of at some point.

The second piece of “evidence” is the 1984 Origins convention map of Blackmoor Castle, drawn by Ken Fletcher. Although drawn in 1984, it can be presumed that this map is supposed to represent the castle from an earlier time, as per the line “Original Exploration and Maps - David L. Arneson 1971”. On the second floor, it mentions a room as “Lady Jenkin’s Bedroom”, with the unnamed Baron’s bedroom being on the 5th floor.

Interpretations: Is “Lady Jenkins” supposed to be the wife of Baron Fant, or Baron Jenkins? If Fant’s wife, even though he married a relative of Jenkins as per the Domesday Book #13 write up, would she not then be called “Lady Fant”? Some may say that this is neither of their wives, but merely a relative staying at the castle. After all, why would the Lady and the Baron have different bedrooms? Good point, but remember that Jenkins’ wife is described in Blackmoor Gazette and Rumormonger thusly: “whose face has smashed a thousand mirrors and sunk a dozen ships” - can Jenkins be blamed for not sharing a bed with her? LOL! Also, it was not uncommon during medieval times for king and queen (or other rulers) to have their own separate bedrooms.

Any other thoughts out there on this? Would love to hear them!

- Xylarthen

[aldarron]

oh great stuff!

But no.

Duane's castle is Glendower.

The sequence of events is

2nd coot invasion 
  Krey turns traitor
  Heroes go into dungeon
  Orcs take over castle Blackmoor
  Heroes emerge from dungeon and hide in woods
  Elves besiege Blackmoor Castle
  Lotsa captured and rescued
  Elves capture and take over castle
  Heroes who went into dungeon exiled to Lake Gloomy
  Battle of Lake Gloomy
  Heroes exile ends
  Jenkins returns to Glendower and Megarry goes with
  Fant goes to Bramwald
  Megarry goes on an adventure to Blackmoor Dungeon (Glendower is not very far from Blackmoor)

Now here is what is super cool - you made me realize why Jenkins went to Glendower and why Fant went to Bramwald - the elves.  The elves were now in charge of the castle so Fant was out of a job!

[Xylarthen]

Thanks for the reply, Aldarron. That is certainly the timeline as I knew it to be as well. But I can’t be so quick to dismiss that 1984 castle map. Could “Lady Jenkin’s bedroom” really be a mistake on Ken’s part, and in fact he meant Lady Fant’s bedroom? Or is there still some way to work Jenkins being the Baron of Blackmoor at some point into the timeline?

Here are a few possibilities:

- Perhaps just prior to the 2nd Coot invasion? Maybe Fant was already in disfavour with the Earl of Vestfold for some as-yet unrecounted reason and Jenkins had been made Baron by the Earl. Of course, this begs the question of who would then be the Baron of Glendower at this time?

- Maybe Fant was incapacitated and unable to perform his duties for a time so Jenkins stepped in as Baron of both Glendower and Blackmoor?

- We know Jenkins was run out of Glendower by an enemy force just prior to the Earthquake of All Hallow’s Eve (as mentioned in Blackmoor Gazette & Rumormonger). Fant put him and his wife up for a time in Blackmoor Castle. Maybe events ensued that caused a political power struggle between the two, and Jenkins won? 

- Or Fant, tired of his “guest” loafing around past his welcome, decided to take back Glendower for Jenkins to get rid of him, and while Fant was fighting Jenkins’ battle for him, Jenkins acted as honorary Baron in his stead?

This is all speculation, of course. Sure wish we had more info on that period of the original campaign between about October 1971 and April 1972!

- Xylarthen

[Xylarthen]

I just read a play report of the never-released DA5 module run by Paul Stormberg at ArneCon 2023 (provided by Klintron in another post - https://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/sho...p?tid=3153 - thanks for that!), and there is again mention of Baron and Lady Jenkins being resident in Blackmoor Castle. While it doesn’t specify that they were the rulers of the castle, it seems to be implied from the context. I understand that Ken Fletcher will be a special guest at DaveCon in April, so hopefully I’ll have a chance to speak with him there and ask him about his map of the castle.

[aldarron]

I just read a play report of the never-released DA5 module run by Paul Stormberg at ArneCon 2023 (provided by Klintron in another post - https://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/sho...p?tid=3153 - thanks for that!), and there is again mention of Baron and Lady Jenkins being resident in Blackmoor Castle. While it doesn’t specify that they were the rulers of the castle, it seems to be implied from the context. I understand that Ken Fletcher will be a special guest at DaveCon in April, so hopefully I’ll have a chance to speak with him there and ask him about his map of the castle.

The DA5 material does have Jenkins in charge of the castle as Baron.  I think there is some wiggle room (though I don't yet have a copy of the text) for Jenkins possibly being a caretaker baron for someone else, but he is clearly the baron.  This goes some way in explaining why the Ungulians, and not the Jenkins are in charge of Glendower.  Bascom and Jenkins are not the same person.

[WingofCoot]

I just read a play report of the never-released DA5 module run by Paul Stormberg at ArneCon 2023 (provided by Klintron in another post - https://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/sho...p?tid=3153 - thanks for that!), and there is again mention of Baron and Lady Jenkins being resident in Blackmoor Castle. While it doesn’t specify that they were the rulers of the castle, it seems to be implied from the context. I understand that Ken Fletcher will be a special guest at DaveCon in April, so hopefully I’ll have a chance to speak with him there and ask him about his map of the castle.

That's interesting! I didn't realize DA5 was ever actually written (as opposed to just proposed).