Tell me about the Iron Duke

[Rafael]

Marshal's and Dave Arneson's clash was in the 1970-71 timeframe. Until the clash happened and he was expelled from the group, I had been driving Marshal to Dave Arneson's house for the gaming sessions. The incident with Marshal in the early 1980's happened at a gaming convention and got him thrown out of the convention. I don't really know any of the actual details of either incident, but I heard stories about both at the time they happened...

Thank you. With this, the different stories I've heard over the years gain their proper perspective. - Now, Hoegfeldt himself maintained that he and Arneson eventually patched things up, and that he participated in later stages of the campaign, again. IF I recall things correctly, that is. Hoegfeldt, - or someone claiming to be him, at least - posted on several of the usual message boards in the late 2000s, but his contributions there were generally pretty unassuming: Nothing that not could be found elsewhere, and, given that his identity was never confirmed, nothing he could not have learned elsewhere, as well.

Another question is how closely the DA modules and the entire King Uther era of Blackmoor follows events from actual gaming sessions. If that is the main point of interest rather than Dave's overall vision for his world, then I think it is better to stick to the FFC, Supplement II and tales from players alone. But I think that we can talk about Dave's visions for the setting beyond what he was able to run for his players.

Again, the core question seems to be, when in the (relative) in-game timeline do the events related to actual playing sessions stop? - Simple question. Simple answer?

I've always been thinking, 1024, perhaps, because Steve (?) Lortz continued gaming with Arneson into the 1980s, if I remember the details correctly. Also, notably, it's after that point that the in-game timeline begins to recycle events everyone knows to have happened earlier, like the expedition(s) to the Temple of the Frog, and to the City of Gods, until we enter the area that is "pure Ritchie", plotwise.

[Havard]

Marshal's and Dave Arneson's clash was in the 1970-71 timeframe. Until the clash happened and he was expelled from the group, I had been driving Marshal to Dave Arneson's house for the gaming sessions. The incident with Marshal in the early 1980's happened at a gaming convention and got him thrown out of the convention. I don't really know any of the actual details of either incident, but I heard stories about both at the time they happened...

Thank you. With this, the different stories I've heard over the years gain their proper perspective. - Now, Hoegfeldt himself maintained that he and Arneson eventually patched things up, and that he participated in later stages of the campaign, again. IF I recall things correctly, that is. Hoegfeldt, - or someone claiming to be him, at least - posted on several of the usual message boards in the late 2000s, but his contributions there were generally pretty unassuming: Nothing that not could be found elsewhere, and, given that his identity was never confirmed, nothing he could not have learned elsewhere, as well.

I came across some notes from an email exchange I had with Marshall before his passing. He mentions there that he first met Dave Arneson in 1969 in Mike Carr's basement. I remember the messages you refer to where he called himself Lord Grey. I believe that these were legitimate, but as you say they had very little substantial in them.

Again, the core question seems to be, when in the (relative) in-game timeline do the events related to actual playing sessions stop? - Simple question. Simple answer?

I've always been thinking, 1024, perhaps, because Steve (?) Lortz continued gaming with Arneson into the 1980s, if I remember the details correctly. Also, notably, it's after that point that the in-game timeline begins to recycle events everyone knows to have happened earlier, like the expedition(s) to the Temple of the Frog, and to the City of Gods, until we enter the area that is "pure Ritchie", plotwise.

The DA modules are set in 1025 so that makes sense. The ZGG material was pushed to 1030, but in retrospect that decision seems a bit pointless since in the ZGG timeline, nothing of importance happens between 1025 and 1030. Also, important plotlines that seemed urgent in 1025 ended up being dragged out all the way to 1030 because of this decision.

The Temple of the Frog and the City of the Gods had been explored during the FFC run, but these are locations that are well suited for multiple expeditions.

-Havard

[aldarron]

I've always been thinking, 1024, perhaps, because Steve (?) Lortz continued gaming with Arneson into the 1980s, if I remember the details correctly.

Lortz was employed at Adventure Games and that's when he was tapped to play the dwarf - that's apparently why we get the whole Uberstar is kidnapped and out of the picture and now Lortz Kharnundhrum is in charge of the dwarves, because Walter Oberstar wasn't there anymore and Lortz was.

[Rafael]

Lortz was employed at Adventure Games and that's when he was tapped to play the dwarf - that's apparently why we get the whole Uberstar is kidnapped and out of the picture and now Lortz Kharnundhrum is in charge of the dwarves, because Walter Oberstar wasn't there anymore and Lortz was.

Thanks, Aldy! Did Lortz not play with Arneson prior to his short stint with Chaosium? - That's the kind of stuff that I plainly don't keep track of any more, these days. This is important, though: Were the stories about Riza Aleford, St. Stephen, and so on, that we get to play in the DA modules perhaps simply where the campaign actually was, at this point? Or, are there documents/testimonies that firmly set them in the 1970s/pre-TSR days?

That, again, would perhaps explain some of the circumstances regarding the Iron Duke. If the DA modules are essentially campaign replays up to DA4, then that points into a certain direction. If the campaign stopped substantially before that, that points to another.

The DA modules are set in 1025 so that makes sense. The ZGG material was pushed to 1030, but in retrospect that decision seems a bit pointless since in the ZGG timeline, nothing of importance happens between 1025 and 1030. Also, important plotlines that seemed urgent in 1025 ended up being dragged out all the way to 1030 because of this decision.

The Temple of the Frog and the City of the Gods had been explored during the FFC run, but these are locations that are well suited for multiple expeditions.

- Which is the point. Those plotlines canonically happen when Greg was already playing as Sol, in "The Garbage Pits of Despair", and when the Great Svenny as a main character had already been retired. Could be Ritchie and later ZGG just put them in the order that suited their respective plotlines best; or, could be that order came from Arneson.

[Havard]

Lortz was employed at Adventure Games and that's when he was tapped to play the dwarf - that's apparently why we get the whole Uberstar is kidnapped and out of the picture and now Lortz Kharnundhrum is in charge of the dwarves, because Walter Oberstar wasn't there anymore and Lortz was.

Thanks, Aldy! Did Lortz not play with Arneson prior to his short stint with Chaosium? - That's the kind of stuff that I plainly don't keep track of any more, these days. This is important, though: Were the stories about Riza Aleford, St. Stephen, and so on, that we get to play in the DA modules perhaps simply where the campaign actually was, at this point? Or, are there documents/testimonies that firmly set them in the 1970s/pre-TSR days?

St. Stephen obviously goes way back to when Stephen Rocklin came back from the military. He is featured in the original Temple of the Frog. I am less sure about the kidnapping of Rissa Aleford. I am not sure how explicit this is set up, but my impression is that Rissa was a kind of romantic interest for Uther. Rissa however, is the daughter of Baron Han Aleford who seems to be a contemporary of the Original Players. Not sure if he is based on a player though. I always assumed that the town of Hanford was named after Han Aleford.

That, again, would perhaps explain some of the circumstances regarding the Iron Duke. If the DA modules are essentially campaign replays up to DA4, then that points into a certain direction. If the campaign stopped substantially before that, that points to another.

I am trying to think about what the design needs would be for the DA modules. It was useful for them to advance the timeline enough so that many of the events of the original campaign had already taken place. Basically, the DA modules were placed ca 30 years after the Coot Invasions. The Lord Fang storyline had been completed and the Castle was once again liberated. We don't know if the Uther storyline was something that had been played out or if it was a kind of logical conclusion to the events played by the Original Players, but the details about Steve Lortz are definitely interesting since they are very recent in the DA1 setup. As mentioned earlier, the Uther storyline also reads much like an analogy of Dave's relationship with TSR (Uther breaking with the Great Kingdom).

The design goals for the DA modules were probably as follows:
1) Introduce new D&D players to Blackmoor
2) Keep it away from Greyhawk (AD&D territory), but connect it to the Known World setting
3) Give the players stuff to do while exploring Blackmoor.

I think point 3) is the reason why the modules were built as they were. Allowing new players to explore classic Blackmoor locations. The players would need some basic story hooks to get them invovled, but the main part of the actual modules is exploration both of these locations and the wilderness surrounding them. The Original Players are presented as experienced and powerful NPCs with deep roots in the setting. This is not so different from how players at conventions joining a game run by Dave Arneson would experience Blackmoor. Remember how "Tindel" complained that he had to explore the dungeon with the powerful Svenny. Of course, the DA modules were written for Companion Level PCs (15+) so the PCs would still be on par with the NPCs.

For the ZGG books, I think they had a plan with moving the timeline, but looking back I think they might have forgotten that along the way. The disappearance of Oberstar meant that the 6th Orc-Dwarf War had just started at the onset of DA1, but in the ZGG books, it has dragged on for 5 years, yet has no bearing on the setting.

- Which is the point. Those plotlines canonically happen when Greg was already playing as Sol, in "The Garbage Pits of Despair", and when the Great Svenny as a main character had already been retired. Could be Ritchie and later ZGG just put them in the order that suited their respective plotlines best; or, could be that order came from Arneson.

From what I understand, Dave ran those games for Greg (Sol), Malia, her husband and others in 1999, but it is indeed possible that he had been planning for them to take place at this point in the timeline back in the mid 80s.



-Havard

[gsvenson]

St. Stephen obviously goes way back to when Stephen Rocklin came back from the military. He is featured in the original Temple of the Frog.

St. Stephen was played by Stephen Rocheford.

[Havard]

St. Stephen obviously goes way back to when Stephen Rocklin came back from the military. He is featured in the original Temple of the Frog.

St. Stephen was played by Stephen Rocheford.

Ah, yes of course :oops: Rocklin was the character's last name, not the player. Thanks for correcting me Greg!

-Havard

[aldarron]

Lortz was employed at Adventure Games and that's when he was tapped to play the dwarf - that's apparently why we get the whole Uberstar is kidnapped and out of the picture and now Lortz Kharnundhrum is in charge of the dwarves, because Walter Oberstar wasn't there anymore and Lortz was.

Thanks, Aldy! Did Lortz not play with Arneson prior to his short stint with Chaosium? - That's the kind of stuff that I plainly don't keep track of any more, these days.

Not sure. What I know about this time period comes mostly from talking with Chirine. We should ask him to have a look at this thread and shed what light he can. The only difficulty is that Chirine was focused on Tekumel products and not so involved with what Arneson was doing with Blackmoor. At this point, I'm not sure who might be a better source though since Lortz has passed.

This is important, though: Were the stories about Riza Aleford, St. Stephen, and so on, that we get to play in the DA modules perhaps simply where the campaign actually was, at this point? Or, are there documents/testimonies that firmly set them in the 1970s/pre-TSR days?

That, again, would perhaps explain some of the circumstances regarding the Iron Duke. If the DA modules are essentially campaign replays up to DA4, then that points into a certain direction. If the campaign stopped substantially before that, that points to another.

My sense is that Arneson was developing new plotlines for the Blackmoor Chronicles that may well have featured a Rissa Aleford kidnapping plot as a hook to explore TotF. I don't think the TotF and CoG plots were campaign replays but I don't know. Part of the reason I don't think so is because of Lortz.

Lortz took over as Dwarf king and was presumably involved in the dwarf/orc wars so that implies that they were adventuring in the Black Hills, Crystal Peaks and so on. GPoD is also set in the Dragon hills - all of which seems pretty removed from the events of the DA series and also seems like the sort of plot lines TSR would be less interested in.

The DA modules are set in 1025 so that makes sense. The ZGG material was pushed to 1030, but in retrospect that decision seems a bit pointless since in the ZGG timeline, nothing of importance happens between 1025 and 1030. Also, important plotlines that seemed urgent in 1025 ended up being dragged out all the way to 1030 because of this decision.

The Temple of the Frog and the City of the Gods had been explored during the FFC run, but these are locations that are well suited for multiple expeditions.

- Which is the point. Those plotlines canonically happen when Greg was already playing as Sol, in "The Garbage Pits of Despair", and when the Great Svenny as a main character had already been retired. Could be Ritchie and later ZGG just put them in the order that suited their respective plotlines best; or, could be that order came from Arneson.

Yeah, great point - Greg did mention playing in the playtest of GPoD. The Great Svenny gets no mention in GPoD and that is probably because he was off managing his domains. My feeling is that Ritchie choose to utilize the character more in the DA series. I think Greg was still in Boston for much of this time?

[gsvenson]

I was in Boston from late 1978 until mid-1983. Then I moved to Rochester, MN and worked for 4D Interactive Systems with Dan Nicholson, Dave Megarry, Dave Wesley and Ross Maker from the old group (Dave Arneson was a co-owner) until December 1984 when we lost the Coleco contract. That was when I moved to Clearwater, Florida, where I still live.

[chirine ba kal]

Not sure. What I know about this time period comes mostly from talking with Chirine. We should ask him to have a look at this thread and shed what light he can. The only difficulty is that Chirine was focused on Tekumel products and not so involved with what Arneson was doing with Blackmoor. At this point, I'm not sure who might be a better source though since Lortz has passed.

I have no useful data; Dave did not invite any of us 'boat people' to his Blackmoor games, which was why it was such a big deal for him to come and play in our campaign out at Phil's.