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+--- Thread: Tell me about the Iron Duke (/showthread.php?tid=2918)
Tell me about the Iron Duke - Rafael - 12-08-2020
Hey, all!
Long time, no see! While it's looking like I'm running Midnight next year, I've been looking into some of my older gaming notes, lately, and I find myself curious: Did the Iron Duke, of DA 1 fame, receive any significant treatment in later sources, and in the MMRPG?
I know a certain viking dedicated a lot of space to him in a recent treatment of the Thonian Rand.
But outside of that? My later ZGG books are in the antic, right now. Which one do I need to pull out from the ocean of boxes? Thank you, and happy to see this place thriving!
- R
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - aldarron - 12-08-2020
I'm 99% certain the Iron Duke is not mentioned at all in the d20 books. I don't recall ever seeing him mentioned. That may be because he was apparently not a Blackmoor character, but something TSR came up with.
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Havard - 12-08-2020
Aldarron Wrote:I'm 99% certain the Iron Duke is not mentioned at all in the d20 books. I don't recall ever seeing him mentioned. That may be because he was apparently not a Blackmoor character, but something TSR came up with.
There is a mention of the Iron Duke in p 174 of the D20 Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Sourcebook.
But thanks for mentioning this. Its been a while since I looked at this book and I had forgotten how little mention there is of the Thonian Empire in the book. The lisence ZGG operated under prevented them from exploring lands beyond the lands shown on the map of "The North".
There are many references to Thonia scattered around the book, but a separate section for the Empire is sorely missing. I hope to remedy this with my Thonia Sourcebook series.
This is the first time I hear that The Iron Duke might not have been created by Dave Arneson. I have seen no references to this character in the FFC or other tales from the First Fantasy Campaign, but still he is a central character in the era of Blackmoor's history after Uther's Revolt. He appeared in DA1 which was approved by Dave back in the 80s. Do you have other evidence to back this up?
-Havard
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Havard - 12-08-2020
Rafael Wrote:Hey, all!
Long time, no see! While it's looking like I'm running Midnight next year, I've been looking into some of my older gaming notes, lately, and I find myself curious: Did the Iron Duke, of DA 1 fame, receive any significant treatment in later sources, and in the MMRPG?
I know a certain viking dedicated a lot of space to him in a recent treatment of the Thonian Rand.
Thank you, and happy to see this place thriving!
DA3 adds more to the Iron Duke and The Rand. Not sure if the D20 version of City of the Gods also has info on him? I don't have that book handy at the moment...
-Havard
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Rafael - 12-08-2020
Thank you for the quick replies, guys!
Havard Wrote:DA3 adds more to the Iron Duke and The Rand. Not sure if the D20 version of City of the Gods also has info on him? I don't have that book handy at the moment...
Yeah, this is where the Thonian Rand is described in detail.
Aldarron Wrote:I'm 99% certain the Iron Duke is not mentioned at all in the d20 books. I don't recall ever seeing him mentioned. That may be because he was apparently not a Blackmoor character, but something TSR came up with.
I also think that there was a player in the later stages of the original Blackmoor campaign. (The one that I've been referring to as "Phase III", 1978 until Marfeldt's exit from the campaign, some time in 1981 or 1982.)
It's true, though, that this is a trope that pops up in later TSR publications that have a Blackmoor flair, like "Destiny of Kings", and "Crown of Ancient Glory". The whole "Markovia" sub-setting fits with what I know from the original campaign, but I can see how the published version of the Iron Duke, especially in the version of the omnipotent evil mastermind, might not necessarily be based only on the original campaign.
Havard Wrote:There is a mention of the Iron Duke in p 174 of the D20 Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Sourcebook.
But thanks for mentioning this. Its been a while since I looked at this book and I had forgotten how little mention there is of the Thonian Empire in the book.
This is why I asked: Like Aldarron, I'm 99% sure that there is no mention of the Iron Duke in the MMRPG, even though the Comeback Inn is such a central location in the game. I've even checked the files with an in-document search program, and - nothing. This was a rather big surprise to me.
I can see, though, how ZGG perhaps would have shunned both the slightly racist Ruritania angle of the story, as well as a connection to the DC universe and the other Markov of TSR fame - from Ravenloft.
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Havard - 12-09-2020
It is worth considering what happened with Blackmoor between the release of the FFC and the time when Dave submitted his documents for the DA series to TSR.
We know that prior to this, Dave Arneson was working on a manuscript called The Blackmoor Chronicles that he was hoping to have released from Mayfair Games, possibly turned into as many as 12 adventures. This is something Dave talked about in 1985, but in 1986 Dave revealed that he was working with TSR. The plan had now changed to 8 modules and a novel, according to an interview in Space Gamer.
Most likely TSR hired Dave Ritchie to coordinate with Arneson and work as a co-writer for what became 4 modules.
It seems to me that already before talking to Ritchie, Dave was developing Blackmoor's post FFC timeline. During the FFC Blackmoor is still a part of the Great Kingdom/Thonia and this realm functions as a supporter of "the Good Guys". In the Post-FFC setting on the other hand, Thonia is an adversary. In this context, the Iron Duke, becomes a much more meaningful NPC than he would have been during the FFC era.
One question is how closely this post FFC setting is connected to events in Dave's later campaign. Based on Dave's earlier works, it seems likely that this is a combination of actual play experiences, unused ideas etc. TSR/Ritchie's influence is clear on the first couple of pages of each module where the connection to The Known World/Mystara and how to bring Known World PCs back to Blackmoor, but it is not apparent to me that TSR excerted a strong influence on the main parts of the adventures. It is a shame that we never got to interview Ritchie about this before he passed away. Regarding The Rand and the Iron Duke, we do know that that material was presented in modules DA1 and DA3 which were fully approved by Arneson.
Comparing the d20 material and the DA modules, I also don't see a lot of disparity. Indeed, without a handful of specific exceptions, the d20 material seems to follow the DA modules very closely. The d20 line does add to and expand on this material, but rarely omits or changes that material except when done to accomidate the d20 rules.
When writing the Thonia Sourcebooks, I have become more and more aware of the fact that Thonia in the post FFC era is a realm that is a contrast to Blackmoor and while PCs in Blackmoor can be allies of the King and The Regency Council, heroic PCs adventuring in Thonia ought to be freedom fighters working in opposition to the ruling class. This is especially true in The Rand where you have the Iron Duke as the main antagonist.
-Havard
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - aldarron - 12-09-2020
Havard Wrote:Aldarron Wrote:I'm 99% certain the Iron Duke is not mentioned at all in the d20 books. I don't recall ever seeing him mentioned. That may be because he was apparently not a Blackmoor character, but something TSR came up with.
There is a mention of the Iron Duke in p 174 of the D20 Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Sourcebook.
...
This is the first time I hear that The Iron Duke might not have been created by Dave Arneson. I have seen no references to this character in the FFC or other tales from the First Fantasy Campaign, but still he is a central character in the era of Blackmoor's history after Uther's Revolt. He appeared in DA1 which was approved by Dave back in the 80s. Do you have other evidence to back this up?
-Havard
Nice Havard,
No time to really dig through DA1 at the moment, but my recollection is that the Iron Duke was created to serve as the mastermind behind the whole kidnap Uther plot which sets up the time travel business for the adventure.
I think none of that came from Arneson. Certainly the time travel aspect did not, not did details of "Thonia", and I doubt he had a plot where Uther was captured due to machinations from the Great Kingdom/Thonia.
It's possible, but I suspect the Iron Duke was inserted by TSR to provide a plot device for the time travel adventure.
The other thing is that I haven't heard anyone hint at an Iron Duke character. That doesn't at all mean there wasn't, but I have no reason to suspect there was such a person in any of Arneson's games. Most of the "real" characters get some kind of nod or treatment somewhere.
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Havard - 12-09-2020
Aldarron Wrote:Nice Havard,
No time to really dig through DA1 at the moment, but my recollection is that the Iron Duke was created to serve as the mastermind behind the whole kidnap Uther plot which sets up the time travel business for the adventure.
I think none of that came from Arneson. Certainly the time travel aspect did not, not did details of "Thonia", and I doubt he had a plot where Uther was captured due to machinations from the Great Kingdom/Thonia.
The time travel plot is the only thing we really know for sure didn't come from Arneson.
Quote:It's possible, but I suspect the Iron Duke was inserted by TSR to provide a plot device for the time travel adventure.
I hadn't thought about this, but I suppose it is possible. The kidnapping of Uther is the main plot of the first adventure in the DA series, so it seems a bit strange to me that this was not Arneson's idea. I always imagined that this was a regular kidnapping plot, but that the time travel thing was added into the plot as well as to the setting. Alternately, it is possible that the kidnapping in the original draft did include the Comeback Inn's "teleporter", but that it originally didn't lead to The Known World, or perhaps even not through time. We know that such expeditions to other realities or time periods have already been tried out in Arneson's campaign so it does not seem so surprising.
But as you say, we really don't know.
I am open to being wrong about the Iron Duke, but I think that I in general see Arneson as much more active in creating the DA modules, at least the first 3 than you do. We know that Arneson submitted manuscripts and that he approved the 3 first after being sent them from TSR with Ritchie's additions.
But its hard to say what's what.
Quote:The other thing is that I haven't heard anyone hint at an Iron Duke character. That doesn't at all mean there wasn't, but I have no reason to suspect there was such a person in any of Arneson's games. Most of the "real" characters get some kind of nod or treatment somewhere.
Agreed. I don't think this was based on any player, at least from the pre 1975 campaign. If he did appear in any games, I think it would be related to games Dave would have run in the late 70s or early 80s.
-Havard
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Rafael - 12-10-2020
Isn't "Markovia" a part of Thonia as per Blackmoor's extended canon?
I recall David Ross mentioning it somewhere, but I think it was on one of the mailing lists, not in the Blackmoor Notebook that he put together.
It would perhaps be interesting to shed some light on the later-day Blackmoor campaign (post-publication FFC until Arneson's move out of Minnesota, some time in the 1980s), at some point, if you haven't done it yet. So, in-game, the campaign timeline reached around the early 910s until the games simply became fewer, and the different core players started gaming increasingly independently from one another: What had happened until then? Did we see Uther's coronation in-game? Because, if the Afridhi where in Arneson's later games, then that would imply that - Uther was already king, as per DA 1, when they first appeared. - That could give us an idea whether the Iron Duke was part of the original game, or not. (Standard TSR trope character that he seems to be.)
Now, in terms of in-game utilities, this will likely do nothing: So, the Iron Duke, publication-wise, a one-off, a stereotypical pseudo-KGB officer, and probably even a placeholder villain, right? No substantial sources on the character beyond DA 1, right? - Okay, let's see what I can perhaps do with it, then.
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Havard - 12-10-2020
Rafael Wrote:Isn't "Markovia" a part of Thonia as per Blackmoor's extended canon?
I am not familiar with "Markovia" in that form of the name, but the Iron Duke's real name is Taha Marcovic.
Quote:It would perhaps be interesting to shed some light on the later-day Blackmoor campaign (post-publication FFC until Arneson's move out of Minnesota, some time in the 1980s), at some point, if you haven't done it yet. So, in-game, the campaign timeline reached around the early 910s until the games simply became fewer, and the different core players started gaming increasingly independently from one another: What had happened until then? Did we see Uther's coronation in-game? Because, if the Afridhi where in Arneson's later games, then that would imply that - Uther was already king, as per DA 1, when they first appeared. - That could give us an idea whether the Iron Duke was part of the original game, or not. (Standard TSR trope character that he seems to be.)
This would absolutely be interesting. We know that Dave kept his annual games going with the original group, but after moving to California (1984?), I don't know who he played with on a more regular basis. In the 1990s he moved to Florida to teach at Full Sail University where he met Dustin Clingman. I am not sure if they played D&D together before they formed Zeitgeist Games in 2004.
Quote:Now, in terms of in-game utilities, this will likely do nothing: So, the Iron Duke, publication-wise, a one-off, a stereotypical pseudo-KGB officer, and probably even a placeholder villain, right? No substantial sources on the character beyond DA 1, right? - Okay, let's see what I can perhaps do with it, then.
DA1 and DA3 provide the best info on the Iron Duke. I actually think this character has tons of potential. He is a military genius and has married into one of the most powerful families of the Empire. He is also ambitious enough that many suspect he is planning to succeed the current Emperor (Iyx). His provess includes highly successful battles against the Skandaharians and the Peshwah. He is also interested in making deals to get technology from the City of the Gods. He has a number of allies and agents deep within Blackmoor. If one wanted to, one could easily run an entire campaign based around him.
Note that the DA modules are wonderful in that they have useful information scattered throughout them. You need to really dig around to get the full picture of anything
-Havard