Blackmoor reading list

[Havard]

My initial idea was to pinpoint ore or less ten titles and make a list with some short explanations of the why and how.

Horseclan novels - pretty obvious.

Yeah, these can probably be linked to the Peshwah if not other things as well.

Beagle - pretty obvious.

Indeed!

But Dune and Lankhmar, or Lovecraft? - Which stories in concrete would you say had an impact on Blackmoor?

Frank Herbet's Dune - The culture of the Fremen and the story of Paul Atreides seems like a good match for Peshwah Na Shepro and the Peshwah.

HP Lovecraft
I don't know the individual stories of the Cthulhu Mythos that well, but anything dealing with Cthulhu, the Deep Ones and Tsaothoggua can be linked to the Temple of the Frog, the Froglin etc. IMC I also see the Egg of Coot as a Cthulhu-like being. I think it is one of several valid interpretations of this entity.

Fritz Leiber
I haven't read any of Leibers Lankhmar novels, but I know they deal with rogue-ish characters and are generally city based adventures. If I were to guess I might picture Maus as a Lankhmar-ish city, with Debelfry and the thieves guild (The Coven in the ZGG version) as similar to that. I could also see the tales of Mello and the Blue Rider as being similar in spirit to the tales of Fahrfd and the Grey Mouser. I have never thought about the Maus/Lankhmar analogy before, but I think this is something we can explore further.

-Havard

[Rafael]

This is exactly what I am after; there's, ever since Gary Gygax canonized fantasy literature for D&D nerds, an in the end, very narrow talk, and only on a few selected authors: Selected, for no good reason than that the crew at TSR liked them, and/or was involved in promoting products related to their works.

For example - Dune, really? I am mid-through the first novel, and I cannot say that I see any similarity to any aspect of Blackmoor; except maybe the crystals/shards being somehow equivalent to spice; but apart from that, really none.

The same for Cthulhu - I read a bunch of those novels over the last year, and, okay, you have fish-people in Innsmouth - but apart from that? I think the similarities between some very marginal aspects of D&D and the whole Lovecraft material stem from either early 80s reception of Warhammer, and, more importantly, from D&D's reception of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series. - Which is unfamiliar to most of us today, but was in it's heyday in the 70s, and contains nearly all the kind of motifs that we have in BKM, including forces of Chaos, etc.

- Which is one of the reasons why I am inclined to discard Leiber as a primary source for Arnesonian D&D; Greyhawk was essentially Lankhmar already, and, so far, there is no direct indicator for a reception by Mr Arneson.

Rather than that, I'd like to know the impact of stuff he actually is sure to have known - like, probably "Thieves World", given the AiF angle, or stuff he directly references to, like the Beagle.

My idea behind all this is that I am somewhat stalling with my understanding of the setting as is, and this I attribute mostly to the sources commonly named being false ones; for example, I am so going to grab those Horseman books at some point.

[Rafael]

:oops: BTW, Robert Adams' Horseman books, right?

EIGHTEEN novels... EIGHTEEN. GAAAAAAAAH.

(You might know by now that I am notorious for usually not reading fantasy that much.)

Eighteen novels alone... That's a year of reading ahead of me...

[gsvenson]

I forgot about Michael Moorcock, we were reading his books, too. This is what we were reading, not necessarily what we used in the games. We were all familiar with Greek mythology. Dispite the links to sci-fi more than 95% of our Blackmoor games were more typical D&D adventures. The sci-fi elements were what was unique about Blackmoor that the TSR staff wanted to publish in the late '80s.

[Havard]

This is exactly what I am after; there's, ever since Gary Gygax canonized fantasy literature for D&D nerds, an in the end, very narrow talk, and only on a few selected authors: Selected, for no good reason than that the crew at TSR liked them, and/or was involved in promoting products related to their works.

Well, I sort of agree, but OTOH, is it not true that Gygax' list is fairly extensive compared to what was available at that time? As Greg has mentioned elsewhere, the Twin Cities gamers would read anything they could get their hands of when it came to sci fi and fantasy. The main difference between Arneson and Gygax seems to be Gygax' attempt at distancing himself from Tolkien.

For example - Dune, really? I am mid-through the first novel, and I cannot say that I see any similarity to any aspect of Blackmoor; except maybe the crystals/shards being somehow equivalent to spice; but apart from that, really none.

I hadn't thought of the Spice/Crystals analogy, but that is interesting. However, when I read the description of "The Nomad" in the FFC and Peshwah Na Shepro in DA1, I could not help think about the Fremen and Paul Atreides, even if Shepro is only Paul on a very small scale (yet).

The same for Cthulhu - I read a bunch of those novels over the last year, and, okay, you have fish-people in Innsmouth - but apart from that? I think the similarities between some very marginal aspects of D&D and the whole Lovecraft material stem from either early 80s reception of Warhammer, and, more importantly, from D&D's reception of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series. - Which is unfamiliar to most of us today, but was in it's heyday in the 70s, and contains nearly all the kind of motifs that we have in BKM, including forces of Chaos, etc.

Moorcock is probably in there, but I would not rule out the Cthulhu Mythos. This manifests itself not only in the Fish People/Frog people, but also in the idea of dark gods lurking below. The Egg of Coot rising from beneath the waves is a clear R'lyeh analogy, even though it might be filtered from Zimriel. The idea of a Froglike deity seems very likely to have been derived from Tsaothoggua. Keep in mind that the elements from the mythos could also have come from Howard/Ashton-Smith as much as Lovecraft himself. I don't see Blackmoor as a Lovecraftian setting, but much more the Mythos as presented by the two others, though Lovecraft created the Mythos.

- Which is one of the reasons why I am inclined to discard Leiber as a primary source for Arnesonian D&D; Greyhawk was essentially Lankhmar already, and, so far, there is no direct indicator for a reception by Mr Arneson.

Remember your chronology here. Greyhawk was not Lankhmar already, since Blackmoor predates Greyhawk. I am seriously beginning to wonder if Maus could not be a direct reference to the Grey Mouser. OTOH, I agree that Greyhawk has a stronger Lankhmar feel than Blackmoor. In Blackmoor, it is just one of many influences.

Rather than that, I'd like to know the impact of stuff he actually is sure to have known - like, probably "Thieves World", given the AiF angle, or stuff he directly references to, like the Beagle.

I'm not really familiar with Thieves World at all, so I can't comment much. Seems likely though.

My idea behind all this is that I am somewhat stalling with my understanding of the setting as is, and this I attribute mostly to the sources commonly named being false ones;

Not really sure what that means? Are you looking for the objective truth to what Blackmoor was? In Arneson's mind, or in that of his players? Is that possible, or even useful?

for example, I am so going to grab those Horseman books at some point.

Jorkens over at the Piazza recommended getting the GURPS Horseclans sourcebook, which I now have in my shelf. I need to spend more time going through it though. I just recently got the book, but it seemed easier than getting all the books.

-Havard

[Havard]

I forgot about Michael Moorcock, we were reading his books, too. This is what we were reading, not necessarily what we used in the games. We were all familiar with Greek mythology. Dispite the links to sci-fi more than 95% of our Blackmoor games were more typical D&D adventures. The sci-fi elements were what was unique about Blackmoor that the TSR staff wanted to publish in the late '80s.

I was hoping you would pop in here Greg. Good point about the sci fi elements being rare rather than every day stuff. I would say Tolkien combined with the the Napoleonics/Braunstein games seems to have been the main influences in that respect.

-Havard

[Rafael]

Okay, so I wrote a lengthy answer, and then accidentally deleted it; GAAAAAAAAH.

Basically, I think most sources that we traditionally name can be debated.

Of course, there is always a difference between what Mr Arneson himself used for inspiration,
what his players preferred, and what other, later authors did with his material.

For me, the goals are many:

First, I would like to explore the depths of 60s and 70s fantasy literature a bit;
this Robert Adams, for example,
it seems he had a great career apart from the Horseclan stuff.

Second, I'd like to differentiate a bit this reigning opinion that everything is either Leiber, Tolkien, or Forbidden Planet.

Third, it would be an idea to make a list for the fans that is a bit more than just numbering the already well-known classic authors.

Like, for example, which of the Moorcock books was the one most influential on Blackmoor?
Can one pinpoint that, in the same fashion that "Tower of Glass" seems to be an influence?

Or, for that matter, Temple of the Frog: Cthulhu, or frogmen from 1930s vintage fantasy books? (I think Edgar Rice Burroughs did them already.)

Or, Philip José Farmer, certainly one of the most prolific writers of his era, how nobody talks about him when it comes to fantasy gaming?

... And so on.

More tomorrow. Now that I have time, beware of my ramblings.

[Havard]

Okay, so I wrote a lengthy answer, and then accidentally deleted it; GAAAAAAAAH.

Basically, I think most sources that we traditionally name can be debated.

Discussion is always good. However, based on a http://thread over at Dragonsfoot, I think we can assume the following:

Confirmed:
Robert Heinlein
Robert Adams (Horseclans Series)
Robert E. Howard (and DeCamp/Carter Conan pastiches)
JRR Tolkien
Poul Anderson (Dave really liked those regenerating Trolls)
John Norman (aka Dr. John Langue)
Star Trek TOS
Homer's Illiad and Odyssey
Godzilla/Monster B-movies
Kung Fu Movies



Speculation:
Frank Herbert (Greg also confirms this)
Fritz Leiber (seems even more likely after recent discoveries)
HP Lovecraft (according to Jeff Berry as an inspiration for Frogfolk)
Clark Ashton Smith (Tsaothoggua as inspiration for the deity behind the Frog?)
Michael Moorcok
Edgar Rice Burroughs

For me, the goals are many:

First, I would like to explore the depths of 60s and 70s fantasy literature a bit;
this Robert Adams, for example,
it seems he had a great career apart from the Horseclan stuff.

A worthy goal!

Second, I'd like to differentiate a bit this reigning opinion that everything is either Leiber, Tolkien, or Forbidden Planet.

As Greg once pointed out, fantasy and sci fi literature was not very common back in the 70s. Fans of those genres were stuck with ready whatever they could get hold of. This might be one reason why the list seems limited. OTOH, it is certainly possible that there are sources we have overlooked.

Third, it would be an idea to make a list for the fans that is a bit more than just numbering the already well-known classic authors.

I agree that connecting the authors with specific elements can be useful where possible.

Like, for example, which of the Moorcock books was the one most influential on Blackmoor?

I am no expert, but I am wondering how much Moorcock influence there would be at all? The main legacy from Moorcock is the Law/Chaos axis, which IIRC Arneson did not start using untill much later. That and perhaps the idea of dragon riders?

Or, for that matter, Temple of the Frog: Cthulhu, or frogmen from 1930s vintage fantasy books? (I think Edgar Rice Burroughs did them already.)

I dont know if these need to be one or the other, most likely the idea of frogmen appealed to Arneson and he took ideas from various authors who had used the concept before. Complicating things even more, these authors probably stole from eachother as well.

Or, Philip José Farmer, certainly one of the most prolific writers of his era, how nobody talks about him when it comes to fantasy gaming?

I have heard Riverworld mentioned in some internet discussions, but beyond that I am not sure. I have never read any of his works personally so I cannot comment.

To conclude, I found this quite from Dave Arneson which will be useful in the continued discussion:

"As far as books go, fantasy books, science fiction/fantasy books that inspired me, we’re talking about Poul Anderson, Robert Heinlein, and a lot of the other authors, like the author of the Horse Clans series. (Robert Adams) Gary [Gygax] Seems to have listed every book he’s ever read in his bibliography, and I’ll be blunt, I don’t think I’ve read a lot of those books. Although, after having read a few thousand books, I really can’t remember which ones I’ve read anymore… So a lot of it is, Yes, I was inspired by…; but where does the inspiration stop and the game design begin? I mean, you’ve got to make changes. You’ve got to do variations. You can be influenced by something you read and don’t even remember reading, because you want to include “oh here is something neat I can incorporate into my world."

Source: http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?bo ... hread=4187

-Havard

[aldarron]

Bram Stokers Dracula would be another although maybe indirectly through horror movie adaptations.

hock: Really? Why?

Ah, well I think the horror movies that Dave loved are too easily glossed over when one thinks of sources. Blackmoor castle in its abandoned state, "feels" not unlike Dracula's castle - an abandoned ediface on a rocky outcrop filled with ghosts and with a creepy old dungeon ruled by a vampire (Sir Fang).

There's also the "van Helsing" model used to create the Cleric class - both being doctors/healers who hunt and destroy unlife.

Dune:
I think there's a number of subtle things but the nomads and thier leader, as Havard mentioned do seem influenced by the fremen, at least in the FFC where it says "...their military prowess... is fearsome beyond belief... defeating up to ten times their number with ease."

And there's "magic" items like the "educator" that have dune equivalents and the fighting machine straight out of the book.

[Rafael]

Ah, well I think the horror movies that Dave loved are too easily glossed over when one thinks of sources. Blackmoor castle in its abandoned state, "feels" not unlike Dracula's castle - an abandoned ediface on a rocky outcrop filled with ghosts and with a creepy old dungeon ruled by a vampire (Sir Fang).

There's also the "van Helsing" model used to create the Cleric class - both being doctors/healers who hunt and destroy unlife.

Isn't that a bit far fetched? I mean, there are so many vampires throughoutliterary history, it doesn't really have to be that particular one.

The same goes for Van Helsing as a model for clerics. Possible, but not demanding a conenction.

Dune:
I think there's a number of subtle things but the nomads and thier leader, as Havard mentioned do seem influenced by the fremen, at least in the FFC where it says "...their military prowess... is fearsome beyond belief... defeating up to ten times their number with ease."

And there's "magic" items like the "educator" that have dune equivalents and the fighting machine straight out of the book.

I am still sceptical about the Dune connection, especially since there are other books that I - at least from my very limited perspective, would consider equally possible influences, namely:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Brain - Which features a Egg of Coot-ish sentientorganism.

Or, this booklet, which features what could be labeled as protopsionics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whipping_Star


Not saying you're wrong, just saying that I still don't get it.