11-24-2009, 06:29 AM
http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=168
Havard:
Orcs of the White hand and Orcs of Mordor were mentioned in the FFC, but removed along with the other Tolkien references in later products. Is there any way we can make use of this in the current campaign? What would Mordor and Saruman translate to in the current Blackmoor setting? The Orcs of Mordor could be translated to the Stormkiller Orcs, but what about the Orcs of the White Hand? Would they differ stat-wise?
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Desdichado:
I am not sure what to make about all the Tolkienian references, but I am thinking of doing a campaign set in Rhun, another Tolkienian country borrowed by DA, that was devastated by Marfeldt the Barbarian... Would be interesting to know what has happened over there since then...
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Havard:
Where is the Rhun of Blackmoor anyway?
As for the other Tolkenian references, the idea would not so much be to make Blackmoor more Tolkienesque, but to change them into a Blackmoor feel, yet use them as ideas for fleshing out new parts of the setting.
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Desdichado:
I think nothing is said directly - but, judging from the hints given in the FFC, I believe it's eastwards. Smile Now, I would be curious to find out if the game ever was set in Rhun, or if that land was only used as a random name for background...
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Havard:
Indeed! Who played Marfelt anyway?
Having Rhun be to the east doesn't really make sense, unless its on the other side of the North Sea. Ofcourse it is located to the far east in Middle Earth. OTOH, if it was to the west, perhaps it was actually the homeland of the Afridhi who just wanted to stay there peacefully untill Marfelt came along and ruined everything? Perhaps he is to blame for all of this???
Back to Sarumans Orcs, assuming that there are indeed at least two important fractions between the Blackmoorian Orcs, parallell to the situation in Tolkien's world; one serving an evil deity, possibly their creator, and the other serving a powerful wizard. How would this fit with the Stormkiller Orcs? Or are they the third party, parallelled to the Orcs of Moria? In any case, who is the evil deity, and who is the evil wizard?
********************************************
Desdichado:
I personally have placed a land called *Rhun* east of the nothern sea. I haven't detailed it, except for what was to find in the FFC. - I want to do a Columbus-like campaign to there some day...
As to the orcs, hmmm... I think a super-wizard hidden somewhere there would be just too cheap... IMC, the Iron Duke is one of the orcs' most powerful allies... Maybe one could build up something around this person?
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gsvenson:
(who played Marfeldt?)
A guy named Marshall Hegfeldt. He is the person who introduced me to Dave Arneson and his gaming group in 1969 at the University of Minnesota, before the meetings moved to Dave's basement. I lost track of him by 1974 or so.
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Havard:
Thanks for sharing this Greg! Marfeldt is one of the Blackmoor characters who most likely, in addition to Svenny ofcourse will play a central role in my planned Blackmoor campaign.
Do you have any anectdotes or memories you could share about this character or even Hegfeldt himself that could help GMs wanting to use Marfeldt as an NPC?
Oh, and do you know anything about this "Rhun" mentioned in Marfeldt's background?
*****************************************
gsvenson:
Dave ran games for multiple groups through the week. I don't actually ever remember doing an adventure with Marfeldt. I can't recall any specific traits of Marshall's that would be helpful. Time clouds my memory. I have no special knowledge of "Rhun", either. Sorry.
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Falconer:
You should be aware that older versions of Chainmail had this quote on p. 30: "According to the best authority, there are at least five kinds (tribes or perhaps clans) of [orcs]. These are: 1) Orcs of the (Red) Eye, 2) Orcs of Mordor, 3) Orcs of the Mountains, 4) Orcs of the White Hand, and 5) Isengarders."
Of course, this is straight from Tolkien, but in Tolkien 1=2 and 4=5, so there are really only three "tribes".
Not that this will shed a lot of light on the discussion, but I think it's interesting to know.
In the AD&D Monster Manual, Gygax changed it to: "Known orc tribes include the following: Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Death Moon, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, Leprous Hand, Rotting Eye, Dripping Blade." Just another cool bit of old-school lore which I don't think has ever been used much or at all. Regards.
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Desdichado:
Very interesting info... I wonder about the exact background of those tribes as presented in Greyhawk...
*****************************************
Falconer:
Straying a little off topic, but interesting. In the module WG4 The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun on page 8, Gygax writes as part of an encounter of 131 orcs (plus more than that female and young): "These are Orcs of the Rotting Eye tribe, belonging to the clan of the Jagged Knife. The standard is a huge, glaive-like knife blade with a serrated edge. This blade is colored a rust red and atop a long shaft, beneath it being the circular targe depicting a rotting eye colored yellow-green and red. This symbol is repeated on the shields of the soldiers, with the jagged-bladed knife seeming to grow out of the rotting eye device. Guards and ranking figures wear dull red clothing. The sub-chief, shaman, and chief also have cloaks of yellowish green, the chief's being striped with red, the shaman's merely bordered with that color."
According to Dragon #57, the Vile Rune and the Death Moon are based in Bone March. Between Deities & Demigods, Unearthed Arcana, and Monster Mythology you can read of various Orkish gods corresponding to different tribes thus:
Vile Rune = Luthic
Death Moon = Shargaas
Broken Bone = Bahgtru
Evil Eye = Gruumsh
Leprous Hand = Yurtrus
Dripping Blade = Ilneval
If you care for those pantheons. Regards.
********************************************
Falconer:
I once designed a campaign based in (Tolkien's) Rhûn and briefly ran it. If anyone's interested, I can elaborate on it and we can see how it can fit in with the Blackmoor world, since official info does not seem to be forthcoming. Regards.
******************************************
gsvenson:
In the original Blackmoor game, the local orc tribe was known as the Orcs of the Black Hand. Their leader was King Frederick the First. King Frederick was played by one of my friends, Fred Funk. They had a settlement on the 10th level of the dungeon under Blackmoor castle. They managed to sack the city of Blackmoor with help from the Egg of Coot while most of the player characters were off on a different adventure...
******************************************
Desdichado:
hank you for that Greyhawk goodness! Smile
I wonder if they'll include the Orc settlement in the DABM book... *Gotta look it up in my FFC.* - What might happen in MY BM Dungeon campaign? - Maybe yet another attempt of the orcs to conquer the city...? Twisted Evil
As to Rhune, please go on with that Falconer. Since Greg's reading, I can't really disclose why I am interested in that, but obviously, it could be very useful for my PbP.
Just as a note: *My* Rhune would bear very close similarities to Frank Mentzer's Aquaria setting...
********************************************
Havard:
Alot of goodness in this thread indeed!
Falconer: What Blackmoor gods would correspond to those Greyhawk ones, if any?
Des: Making use of Aquaria here is interesting. I got the files from Frank, but I still only have a vague concept of what Aquaria is about. Except that he uses the OD&D cosmology for it...
Greg: I knew King Funk was named after a player, but I didnt know his first name, or that you played with him. So Orcs were allowed as Pcs back then? Thanks for sharing yet another of your gaming moments with Dave!
*****************************************
gsvenson:
Another PC, John Soukup, played a balrog. He and Fred were feuding at one point and the balrog joined Svenny and the gang for a raid on King Frederick's throne room. It was a glorious battle, as I recall, Svenny killed 113 orcs and the balrog out did him. But, alas, the balrog died and Svenny had to be carried out while drifting in and out of conciousness (giving my companions directions as to how to get out when I was awake...). We even had to leave most of the loot...
In the early days, we would have "good" and "bad" teams of players contending with each other. The teams would take turns meeting with Dave during the gaming sessions. We would have board games, miniatures games or card games going in another room to keep busy while we waited for our turn.
**********************************
Desdichado:
Smile I use Aquaria just as a *default* setting - the more detail material was all borrowed from Greyhawk... What I got from the web is actually not more than two or three maps and a sort of campaign journal, but it works... Somehow... Laughing
BTW, since you're a Wilderlander too, Frank stated once that he used the old JG map of Valon as a first model for Aquaria.
*Note to Greg: NEVER EVER read the Aquaria pdfs... Wink*
******************************
-Havard
Havard:
Orcs of the White hand and Orcs of Mordor were mentioned in the FFC, but removed along with the other Tolkien references in later products. Is there any way we can make use of this in the current campaign? What would Mordor and Saruman translate to in the current Blackmoor setting? The Orcs of Mordor could be translated to the Stormkiller Orcs, but what about the Orcs of the White Hand? Would they differ stat-wise?
*****************************
Desdichado:
I am not sure what to make about all the Tolkienian references, but I am thinking of doing a campaign set in Rhun, another Tolkienian country borrowed by DA, that was devastated by Marfeldt the Barbarian... Would be interesting to know what has happened over there since then...
************************
Havard:
Where is the Rhun of Blackmoor anyway?
As for the other Tolkenian references, the idea would not so much be to make Blackmoor more Tolkienesque, but to change them into a Blackmoor feel, yet use them as ideas for fleshing out new parts of the setting.
****************************
Desdichado:
I think nothing is said directly - but, judging from the hints given in the FFC, I believe it's eastwards. Smile Now, I would be curious to find out if the game ever was set in Rhun, or if that land was only used as a random name for background...
************************************
Havard:
Indeed! Who played Marfelt anyway?
Having Rhun be to the east doesn't really make sense, unless its on the other side of the North Sea. Ofcourse it is located to the far east in Middle Earth. OTOH, if it was to the west, perhaps it was actually the homeland of the Afridhi who just wanted to stay there peacefully untill Marfelt came along and ruined everything? Perhaps he is to blame for all of this???
Back to Sarumans Orcs, assuming that there are indeed at least two important fractions between the Blackmoorian Orcs, parallell to the situation in Tolkien's world; one serving an evil deity, possibly their creator, and the other serving a powerful wizard. How would this fit with the Stormkiller Orcs? Or are they the third party, parallelled to the Orcs of Moria? In any case, who is the evil deity, and who is the evil wizard?
********************************************
Desdichado:
I personally have placed a land called *Rhun* east of the nothern sea. I haven't detailed it, except for what was to find in the FFC. - I want to do a Columbus-like campaign to there some day...
As to the orcs, hmmm... I think a super-wizard hidden somewhere there would be just too cheap... IMC, the Iron Duke is one of the orcs' most powerful allies... Maybe one could build up something around this person?
*************************
gsvenson:
(who played Marfeldt?)
A guy named Marshall Hegfeldt. He is the person who introduced me to Dave Arneson and his gaming group in 1969 at the University of Minnesota, before the meetings moved to Dave's basement. I lost track of him by 1974 or so.
**********************************
Havard:
Thanks for sharing this Greg! Marfeldt is one of the Blackmoor characters who most likely, in addition to Svenny ofcourse will play a central role in my planned Blackmoor campaign.
Do you have any anectdotes or memories you could share about this character or even Hegfeldt himself that could help GMs wanting to use Marfeldt as an NPC?
Oh, and do you know anything about this "Rhun" mentioned in Marfeldt's background?
*****************************************
gsvenson:
Dave ran games for multiple groups through the week. I don't actually ever remember doing an adventure with Marfeldt. I can't recall any specific traits of Marshall's that would be helpful. Time clouds my memory. I have no special knowledge of "Rhun", either. Sorry.
*****************************************
Falconer:
You should be aware that older versions of Chainmail had this quote on p. 30: "According to the best authority, there are at least five kinds (tribes or perhaps clans) of [orcs]. These are: 1) Orcs of the (Red) Eye, 2) Orcs of Mordor, 3) Orcs of the Mountains, 4) Orcs of the White Hand, and 5) Isengarders."
Of course, this is straight from Tolkien, but in Tolkien 1=2 and 4=5, so there are really only three "tribes".
Not that this will shed a lot of light on the discussion, but I think it's interesting to know.
In the AD&D Monster Manual, Gygax changed it to: "Known orc tribes include the following: Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Death Moon, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, Leprous Hand, Rotting Eye, Dripping Blade." Just another cool bit of old-school lore which I don't think has ever been used much or at all. Regards.
*************************************************
Desdichado:
Very interesting info... I wonder about the exact background of those tribes as presented in Greyhawk...
*****************************************
Falconer:
Straying a little off topic, but interesting. In the module WG4 The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun on page 8, Gygax writes as part of an encounter of 131 orcs (plus more than that female and young): "These are Orcs of the Rotting Eye tribe, belonging to the clan of the Jagged Knife. The standard is a huge, glaive-like knife blade with a serrated edge. This blade is colored a rust red and atop a long shaft, beneath it being the circular targe depicting a rotting eye colored yellow-green and red. This symbol is repeated on the shields of the soldiers, with the jagged-bladed knife seeming to grow out of the rotting eye device. Guards and ranking figures wear dull red clothing. The sub-chief, shaman, and chief also have cloaks of yellowish green, the chief's being striped with red, the shaman's merely bordered with that color."
According to Dragon #57, the Vile Rune and the Death Moon are based in Bone March. Between Deities & Demigods, Unearthed Arcana, and Monster Mythology you can read of various Orkish gods corresponding to different tribes thus:
Vile Rune = Luthic
Death Moon = Shargaas
Broken Bone = Bahgtru
Evil Eye = Gruumsh
Leprous Hand = Yurtrus
Dripping Blade = Ilneval
If you care for those pantheons. Regards.
********************************************
Falconer:
I once designed a campaign based in (Tolkien's) Rhûn and briefly ran it. If anyone's interested, I can elaborate on it and we can see how it can fit in with the Blackmoor world, since official info does not seem to be forthcoming. Regards.
******************************************
gsvenson:
In the original Blackmoor game, the local orc tribe was known as the Orcs of the Black Hand. Their leader was King Frederick the First. King Frederick was played by one of my friends, Fred Funk. They had a settlement on the 10th level of the dungeon under Blackmoor castle. They managed to sack the city of Blackmoor with help from the Egg of Coot while most of the player characters were off on a different adventure...
******************************************
Desdichado:
hank you for that Greyhawk goodness! Smile
I wonder if they'll include the Orc settlement in the DABM book... *Gotta look it up in my FFC.* - What might happen in MY BM Dungeon campaign? - Maybe yet another attempt of the orcs to conquer the city...? Twisted Evil
As to Rhune, please go on with that Falconer. Since Greg's reading, I can't really disclose why I am interested in that, but obviously, it could be very useful for my PbP.
Just as a note: *My* Rhune would bear very close similarities to Frank Mentzer's Aquaria setting...
********************************************
Havard:
Alot of goodness in this thread indeed!
Falconer: What Blackmoor gods would correspond to those Greyhawk ones, if any?
Des: Making use of Aquaria here is interesting. I got the files from Frank, but I still only have a vague concept of what Aquaria is about. Except that he uses the OD&D cosmology for it...
Greg: I knew King Funk was named after a player, but I didnt know his first name, or that you played with him. So Orcs were allowed as Pcs back then? Thanks for sharing yet another of your gaming moments with Dave!
*****************************************
gsvenson:
Another PC, John Soukup, played a balrog. He and Fred were feuding at one point and the balrog joined Svenny and the gang for a raid on King Frederick's throne room. It was a glorious battle, as I recall, Svenny killed 113 orcs and the balrog out did him. But, alas, the balrog died and Svenny had to be carried out while drifting in and out of conciousness (giving my companions directions as to how to get out when I was awake...). We even had to leave most of the loot...
In the early days, we would have "good" and "bad" teams of players contending with each other. The teams would take turns meeting with Dave during the gaming sessions. We would have board games, miniatures games or card games going in another room to keep busy while we waited for our turn.
**********************************
Desdichado:
Smile I use Aquaria just as a *default* setting - the more detail material was all borrowed from Greyhawk... What I got from the web is actually not more than two or three maps and a sort of campaign journal, but it works... Somehow... Laughing
BTW, since you're a Wilderlander too, Frank stated once that he used the old JG map of Valon as a first model for Aquaria.
*Note to Greg: NEVER EVER read the Aquaria pdfs... Wink*
******************************
-Havard
Currently Running: The Blackmoor Vales Saga
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign