Ship Building Rules [FFC, p. 10]

[DungeonDevil]

I'm rather confused about the section of the construction of ships and boats given on page 10 of the First Fantasy Campaign book. Could someone explain the use of "ship points" and especially "hull points"?

Are "hull points" a mechanic solely for the construction, or also a kind of "hit point value" for the vessels if involved in maritime combat scenarios?

Are there infos on the number of "hull points" needed to build, say, a Viking longship? A typical merchant ship? Small fishing boats?

If 1 hull point is 600 logs, each one being 12 ft. by 1 ft. I'd imagine that it wouldn't take more than a fractional hull point to make something as small as a typical rowboat, shallow-draft fishing boat, etc.

The DMG (p. 54, col. A) gives various vessels with "hull value ranges" but I'm assuming that these are two different systems, as EGG says that a mere rowboat has 1-4 points "hull value". I simply cannot see a single rowboat requiring the expenditure of 600 logs. hock:

It's also odd that, despite the attention to this subject, there were no stated rules for the maintenance of vessels in drydock (as in "winter repairs" while the waterways were undoubtedly iced-over and unnavigable). Perhaps I'm overthinking this.

[gsvenson]

I honestly don't remember. I reread it. It sounds a bit like our Napoleonic ship building rules. If that is the case then a hull point would be like a displacement ton. I will have to see if I can find the old Nappy rules...

[DungeonDevil]

Since I also do "Nappy" wargaming, it would be great to hear what you used in the past. I'm always on the lookout for rules that would have been extant since the 1950's. I always appreciate the feedback. Thank you, sir.

[garolek]

I have always taken hull points to be the same as the damage points needed to capsize a vessel, as listed in OD&D and the AD&D DMG.
In OD&D, the amounts for each type are listed as: boats have 3 points, small ships have 9 - 15, large ones 18 - 24. These are lower than the values in the 1e DMG.

A rather cheap boat is in the equipment price list on page 11 of the FFC, costing 400 GP and requiring 120 logs. This vessel would seem to have one fifth of a hull point. This does not bear out with the above figures, but a small catapult shot would stand an excellent chance of sinking a very small boat.

I could find nothing specific about repairing vessels at a winter dry-dock in the FFC, but I would assume that hull points are repaired with the same cost and time as the original construction (that is, 1 hull point = 600 logs, so repair of a quarter point loss would take 150 logs and you would then only have to build 23.75 hull points worth of ships to keep the dock open).

Something to keep in mind, I feel, is that a lot more wood goes into the manufacture of a boat than is actually used for the planking, strakes, masts, et cetera. Timber frames are used to support construction of all but the smallest vessels. Lots of fire is needed for boats too - many wooden parts are curved and must be steamed into shape, and the pitch used to seal a vessel must be melted to be applied.

The rules in the FFC take into account neither the rope needed for rigging nor the canvas for sails, let alone the pitch mentioned above. Mr Arneson is reknowned for his knowledge of ships, so I would think that these other costs are subsumed into the hull point costs somehow.

I have watched boats being built in Halifax (Nova Scotia, not England), and while they do not burn wood to create the steam to bend planking nor do they use large wooden frames, they do use an awful lot of timber to build a boat. I would estimate perhaps 40 or 50 logs of the size Mr Arneson describes being used to construct these boats, which are around 12 to 15 feet in length, a beam of 4 - 6 feet and a draft of 2 or 3 feet.

I must admit, however, that I do not use the FFC rules for ship building as written. They do provide me with inspiration, and if my DM brain is stuck for an answer I might pull a number out of there if necessary. I have a larger price list for sailing vessels, and I allow them to be built in the same manner as a stronghold is built. I've never had a player into the nitty-gritty of shipbuilding, so abstract is easier for all concerned.

I know this is a little short on concrete answers, but hopefully it helps. :wink:

Alfred

[DungeonDevil]

Thanks, garolek, for the very useful post!
Have a pint on me!

[Havard]

Great thread. I had never really taken a close look at this part of the FFC before.

-Havard

[gsvenson]

Gorelik's idea is a good one. My nappy campaign rules are still in a box in the attic, sorry...

[Big Mac]

I'm rather confused about the section of the construction of ships and boats given on page 10 of the First Fantasy Campaign book. Could someone explain the use of "ship points" and especially "hull points"?

Are "hull points" a mechanic solely for the construction, or also a kind of "hit point value" for the vessels if involved in maritime combat scenarios?

Are there infos on the number of "hull points" needed to build, say, a Viking longship? A typical merchant ship? Small fishing boats?

If 1 hull point is 600 logs, each one being 12 ft. by 1 ft. I'd imagine that it wouldn't take more than a fractional hull point to make something as small as a typical rowboat, shallow-draft fishing boat, etc.

Wow! Looks like Dave Arneson invented the ship system that got used in Jeff Grubb's Spelljammer rules! hock: