Anchoring the d20 line

***Havard*** · 08-11-2010, 04:29 AM

Given the recent discussion about the Scale of the ZG material, I have begun to formulate one of my grand projects. Given the recent dicussion, it looks like this is something I will have to do on my own, but that is okay Smile

As Rafe says, the d20 Blackmoor product line is filled with wonderful ideas. Yet, it sometimes feels like something is missing.

To me it feels like there are two layers of Blackmoor. The D20 line being a layer that is somehow floating on top of the older material. Looking at the history and geography sections of the D20 books, many of the references are extremely vague about where something happened or who exactly did what or how these people are connected to the rest.

This is not going to be a long complaint about the d20 line. To me, Blackmoor is a puzzle and there are just things with these products that I haven't figured out where to place yet.

Right now, I can think of two major additions to the setting that were introduced in the d20 line:

1) The Mage Wars. The whole storyline about the creation of the Wizards Cabal introduced alot of new characters and make alot of references to places and events without specifying exactly when or where these things occurred.

2) Elves. This is what I am working on right now. Not much was detailed on the elves prior to 2003 so there was alot of room for expansions. Yet, alot of things about the two elven races was left as mysteries for the DM to figure out.

Anything else that feels like it is floating out there?

-Havard

aldarron · 08-15-2010, 08:03 PM

Balrogs. Yes they disappeared (in name) from the print material because they are a trademarked name, but even so, FFC Blackmoor is crawling with Balrogs. What happened to them?

aldarron · 08-17-2010, 11:31 AM

Another is Gypsys. Possibly the nomads of ten, although I think you may have linked the nomads with the Afridi?

aldarron · 08-17-2010, 12:05 PM

Havard Wrote:2) Elves. This is what I am working on right now. Not much was detailed on the elves prior to 2003 so there was alot of room for expansions. Yet, alot of things about the two elven races was left as mysteries for the DM to figure out.

There is a great deal of material about the nature of Elves in AiF and a bit about Dwarves too.

I see no reason not to consider it cannon for Blackmoor. Daves Elves are Daves Elves. You could use some of that to flesh out your info.

Rafael · 08-17-2010, 12:08 PM

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah.

There we go, Aldy! My thoughts exactly! Big Grin

***Havard*** · 08-17-2010, 04:16 PM

Great input Dan! Keep those coming!

Aldarron Wrote:Balrogs. Yes they disappeared (in name) from the print material because they are a trademarked name, but even so, FFC Blackmoor is crawling with Balrogs. What happened to them?

Obviously they have other names in other editions, but I imagine that Demons or some sort will still be around. DoCBM has some clues on this subject. I will expect most Demons to be lurking within the Realm of The Egg, or possibly some are enslaved by the Afridhi.

Aldarron Wrote:Another is Gypsys. Possibly the nomads of ten, although I think you may have linked the nomads with the Afridi?

IMC I had some Gypsies who were of Peshwa origin. 3E also has the Gnomes as a Gypsy-like folk.

I'm linking Nomads either with the Afridhi or the Peshwa, depending on the context.

Aldarron Wrote:
Havard Wrote:2) Elves. This is what I am working on right now. Not much was detailed on the elves prior to 2003 so there was alot of room for expansions. Yet, alot of things about the two elven races was left as mysteries for the DM to figure out.

There is a great deal of material about the nature of Elves in AiF and a bit about Dwarves too.

I see no reason not to consider it cannon for Blackmoor. Daves Elves are Daves Elves. You could use some of that to flesh out your info.

I am doing some work on elves and dwarves now, but I only have book 1 of the AiF so I can't find any info on the races there. Any help would be appreciated! Wink

-Havard

aldarron · 08-18-2010, 08:56 PM

Havard, check your PM.

Balrogs - I know that Gygax recast these as type something or other demons, but that just seems a bit off to me.

Balrogs in Tolkien are a kind of dragon or proto dragon, somewhat supernatural in power perhaps but very much a creature of the material world of middle earth. Demons, being judeo/christian in origin are otherwordly beings tied to serving dark otherwordly (extraplanar) powers.

Maybe its just me but I think a balrog is a balrog and a demon is a demon.

Nomads of ten - these could be desert nomads too. Ever since I saw that reference to Satraps as the rulers Ten, I've been thinking that the ruleing class of Ten (at least) came north from some realm in the southern deserts.

Rafael · 08-18-2010, 10:53 PM

The Balrogs in Arneson are 100% Tolkienian.

I think it's worth noticing that original BM dungeon was fairly stuffed with them, as opposed to any official rendition of the setting.

Dave L · 08-19-2010, 03:21 AM

Aldarron Wrote:Havard, check your PM.

Balrogs - I know that Gygax recast these as type something or other demons, but that just seems a bit off to me.

Balrogs in Tolkien are a kind of dragon or proto dragon, somewhat supernatural in power perhaps but very much a creature of the material world of middle earth. Demons, being judeo/christian in origin are otherwordly beings tied to serving dark otherwordly (extraplanar) powers.

Huh?

Sauron and the Istari are Maiar - 2nd stage angels. The Valar are the 1st stage, of whom Melkor was one before his fall.

Balrogs were also angelic-type beings who followed Melkor, of the same order as the Maiar.

Wikipedia Wrote:The Balrogs were Maiar, of the same order as Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf. They were seduced by Melkor, who corrupted them to his service in the days of his splendour before the making of Arda.

That's why Gandalf made such a big deal about fighhting one - he was facing a being of the same order of power as himself.

The dragons were created by Melkor iirc.

All of this stuff is in the Silmarilion, but I'm stretching back over 25 years trying to remember it. Smile

aldarron · 08-19-2010, 12:39 PM

Yep, agreed, but I still don't see them being demonic, any more than I see Melkor as a devil.

The supernaturalism in LoTR, being grounded in Norse/Germanic model is very tied to the material world and the "supernatural" beings aren't much different than the natural ones - just more powerful. Aesir and Vanir and Maiar can and do bleed and die, not simply be banished to some other plane.

Have to check, but I beleive dragons were bred from Balrog as orcs were bred from elves.