The AD&D N Module Series and Blackmoor (Split from:What was

[Rafael]

Not really on topic, but I'e always kind of assumed that N3 - Destiny of Kings was written with Blackmoor in mind.

Maybe plots and ideas that were originally designed to appear in DA5 were recycled to fit into the Andevar universe?





Admin edit: Split off from this thread

-Havard

[Havard]

Not really on topic, but I'e always kind of assumed that N3 - Destiny of Kings was written with Blackmoor in mind.

Maybe plots and ideas that were originally designed to appear in DA5 were recycled to fit into the Andevar universe?

It is an interesting theory. I could see the plots working in a Blackmoor context and the similarities between King Andahar and the King of Andevar are odd coincidences if not more.

What makes your theory less likely I think is the year of publication. N3 was published in 1986 while DA4 came out in 1987. If it was indeed something rejected for Blackmoor would it not be likely that they would have waited till after the end of the DA line before releasing it? Perhaps it is more likely that the author was inspired by Blackmoor? It would be interesting to ask Stephen Bourne about his inspiration for this module.

Officialness aside, do you have any further ideas for adapting N3 to Blackmoor? Are any of the other modules in the N series suitable for our favorite setting?

-Havard

[RobJN]

I could easily see porting N1: Against the Cult of the Reptile God to Blackmoor, using either the Temple of Id, Egg of Coot, or even the Frog Cult in place of that module's big bad.

[Rafael]

Officialness aside, do you have any further ideas for adapting N3 to Blackmoor? Are any of the other modules in the N series suitable for our favorite setting?

Yes, but weren't there contractual disputes between then-new head of TSR, Lorraine Williams, and Arneson - the same that then hindered the release of DA 5?

It's not unreasonable to assume a scenario where the DA series would have been discontinued after DA 3. Also, wasn't 1986 the year Mr Arneson and MAR Barker teamed up to create another gaming-related company (whose name now escapes me)?

The reason why I first got interested in the module was, of course, the rather elaborated backstory - in my German edition, it's three letter-sized (larger than DIN A4) pages taking great care in introducing a setting... That just kind of sounds like Blackmoor. Either that's a really uncanny amount of coincidences... Or, this was somehow based around Blackmoor, whether based on an in-house outline for a later DA module, or simply as a piece that was inspired by it.

You might know that I classify the different stages of Arneson's home game as the Svenny Campaign (-1974), the Robilar Campaign (-1976), the Ungulian Campaign (-1982), and the later Sol Campaign ( until ~1994). I could perfectly see that one be part of the Ungulian campaign, perhaps set in the South-Eastern kingdom, near the Abbeys, or the Stormkillers, with the emphasis on courtly intrigue, and the renewed importance of the clergy.

At the same time, I am completely aware that this happened in 1986. This means bascially two things: First, chivalric fantasy was at its height within the roleplaying genre; so, certain topics were quite common, from DragonWarriors, to Dragonlance. Bourne's own first RPG credit is for "Throne of Evil", a Mayfair adventure set in medieval England. - Second, this is the year that many regular writers left TSR, and that many second-level tier guys stepped up - and being a second-level, in that context, meant that knew D&D a whole lot, and, in your writing, didn't wander away too much from the known formula. So, to assume that Stephen Bourne knew and liked the works of Dave Arneson, perhaps even knew DA in person, and had played with him - not entirely out of the plausible. It might be fully possible that he was just a fan, or unconsciously copied the same basics. - Mind you, too, the similarity of the generic X-series modules was wanted by the publisher!

Now, what makes me somewhat suspicious that these similarities are entirely coincidental is this other module Bourne wrote, his last RPG credit for TSR:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Ancient_Glory

Again, a slightly Blackmoor-y story in a slightly Blackmoor-y environment. Many, many coincidences, truly...

[Havard]

Officialness aside, do you have any further ideas for adapting N3 to Blackmoor? Are any of the other modules in the N series suitable for our favorite setting?

Yes, but weren't there contractual disputes between then-new head of TSR, Lorraine Williams, and Arneson - the same that then hindered the release of DA 5?

It's not unreasonable to assume a scenario where the DA series would have been discontinued after DA 3.

Good question. I wrote an article about that on my blog called "Lorraine Williams killed the DA line?" where I reported claims that Williams regarded Arneson as part of the Gary Gygax baggage that she was trying to rid the company of. Since then I have been recieving contradictory reports about this, but ultimately she was in charge when the decision was made to discontinue the line. She assumed full control of TSR in 1986 as the Wikipedia explains:

Although Williams turned down Gygax's invitation to invest in TSR, Gygax did hire her, on the basis of her management experience, to manage TSR.[2][5][7] Williams was able to deal with TSR's creditors and get money flowing back into the company again.[6]:18 Gygax subsequently engineered the removal of Kevin Blume as CEO and the removal of three of Blume's friends from the board as well but, in an act many saw as retaliation, the Blumes soon sold their stock to Williams,[2][8] making her the majority shareholder.[7] Gygax tried to fire Williams[5] and replace her with his future wife, Gail Carpenter, but was advised not to.[2] Gygax tried to have the sale of stock declared illegal; after that failed, Gygax sold his remaining stock to Williams and left TSR at the end of 1985.[5][6]:18[7] Williams formally took over TSR in 1986.[6]:27

Presumably the production of the first DA modules was already in motion when this happened. This could support the claim that it was in fact Gary Gygax who had reached out to Dave Arneson about submitting these modules in the first place. Another theory is that their publication was a result of some legal settlement. Recall, that just a year earlier, Dave Arneson had tried to have his modules published via Mayfair Games, but TSR would likely have wanted to block that effort since they owned the rights to Blackmoor.

In any case, it would make sense that after a year of being in charge, Williams decided to make the move on the DA line. Remember how Dave Arneson was not consulted for DA4 by Ritchie and how DA5 was subsequently cancelled. This does suggest a change of policy from the top level.

Also, wasn't 1986 the year Mr Arneson and MAR Barker teamed up to create another gaming-related company (whose name now escapes me)?

I am not familiar with any company being set up by Arneson & Barker at this time? Adventure Games had been sold to Flying Buffalo in 1984. Are you perhaps thinking of Different Worlds Publication (set up in 1987)?

The reason why I first got interested in the module was, of course, the rather elaborated backstory - in my German edition, it's three letter-sized (larger than DIN A4) pages taking great care in introducing a setting... That just kind of sounds like Blackmoor. Either that's a really uncanny amount of coincidences... Or, this was somehow based around Blackmoor, whether based on an in-house outline for a later DA module, or simply as a piece that was inspired by it.

Interesting Could you give some more specific examples?

You might know that I classify the different stages of Arneson's home game as the Svenny Campaign (-1974), the Robilar Campaign (-1976), the Ungulian Campaign (-1982), and the later Sol Campaign ( until ~1994). I could perfectly see that one be part of the Ungulian campaign, perhaps set in the South-Eastern kingdom, near the Abbeys, or the Stormkillers, with the emphasis on courtly intrigue, and the renewed importance of the clergy.

That is an interesting categorization. Do you have any information about the "Ungulian Campaign" beyond what is found in the published material? Such as which players were involved?

At the same time, I am completely aware that this happened in 1986. This means bascially two things: First, chivalric fantasy was at its height within the roleplaying genre; so, certain topics were quite common, from DragonWarriors, to Dragonlance. Bourne's own first RPG credit is for "Throne of Evil", a Mayfair adventure set in medieval England. - Second, this is the year that many regular writers left TSR, and that many second-level tier guys stepped up - and being a second-level, in that context, meant that knew D&D a whole lot, and, in your writing, didn't wander away too much from the known formula. So, to assume that Stephen Bourne knew and liked the works of Dave Arneson, perhaps even knew DA in person, and had played with him - not entirely out of the plausible. It might be fully possible that he was just a fan, or unconsciously copied the same basics. - Mind you, too, the similarity of the generic X-series modules was wanted by the publisher!

Now, what makes me somewhat suspicious that these similarities are entirely coincidental is this other module Bourne wrote, his last RPG credit for TSR:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Ancient_Glory

Again, a slightly Blackmoor-y story in a slightly Blackmoor-y environment. Many, many coincidences, truly...

Some connection is definitely possible. I am going to treat anything beyond that as speculation untill we can get anything confirmed by Bourne or others, but there is nothing wrong with speculation. It would be interesting to reach out to Bourne about this. Given that he is a Mystara author as well it would have alot of things to talk to the man about

My main reason for having some reservation is that it is not a name that has appeared anywhere else in my material, but of course the number of people having played with Arneson is so large that it cannot be ruled out. Certainly worth investigating further!


-Havard

[Rafael]

In any case, it would make sense that after a year of being in charge, Williams decided to make the move on the DA line. Remember how Dave Arneson was not consulted for DA4 by Ritchie and how DA5 was subsequently cancelled. This does suggest a change of policy from the top level.

Quite frankly, outside of our bubble, this seems to be a pretty well-known fact. Williams actively pursued to minimize stafff employees at TSR; this was not some nefarious scheme, however: TSR was simply bankrupt at the time. So, production schedules were cleaned (mind you, 1987 would also have been the year for Frank Mentzer's Aquaria), and cheaper writers came in for the better-paid regulars.

I am not familiar with any company being set up by Arneson & Barker at this time? Adventure Games had been sold to Flying Buffalo in 1984. Are you perhaps thinking of Different Worlds Publication (set up in 1987)?

Can't remember, really. Ask Chirine, he knows best.

Interesting Could you give some more specific examples?

HAHAHA. No, thanks. I have a dayjob, you know. :o

However, pretty much every name sounds SUSPICIOUSLY familiar; to a degree when I stop believing in coincidences. You might simply want to make a table - the results are surprising.

That is an interesting categorization. Do you have any information about the "Ungulian Campaign" beyond what is found in the published material? Such as which players were involved?

Nothing written, lamentably, and only vague info I picked up here and there. Basically, the it encompasses all the games Mr Arneson ran with a new group after his friends from the FFC left the Twin Cities area; here's where the strong ties to Tekumel were explored, and where the emphasis of the shared stories switched towards Marfeldt, Ungulian, and, I think, the halflings from Boggy Bottom. It ended when Arneson himself moved away from the area, in 1982, and contact to many of the players of that generation broke off, for all the reasons that contact to friendly acquaintances tends to break off when you move 3,000 miles away. That's why many of those storylines were not really finished, or, for that matter, polished for publication. - Like that of Ungulian himself.

Some connection is definitely possible. I am going to treat anything beyond that as speculation untill we can get anything confirmed by Bourne or others, but there is nothing wrong with speculation. It would be interesting to reach out to Bourne about this. Given that he is a Mystara author as well it would have alot of things to talk to the man about

My main reason for having some reservation is that it is not a name that has appeared anywhere else in my material, but of course the number of people having played with Arneson is so large that it cannot be ruled out. Certainly worth investigating further!

Sure; if you can contact him, please do so! Now, I hope he is not offended by my speculation, As I said, very dififcult to escape that special sort of chivalric fantasy, back in 1986.

[Havard]

In any case, it would make sense that after a year of being in charge, Williams decided to make the move on the DA line. Remember how Dave Arneson was not consulted for DA4 by Ritchie and how DA5 was subsequently cancelled. This does suggest a change of policy from the top level.

Quite frankly, outside of our bubble, this seems to be a pretty well-known fact. Williams actively pursued to minimize stafff employees at TSR; this was not some nefarious scheme, however: TSR was simply bankrupt at the time. So, production schedules were cleaned (mind you, 1987 would also have been the year for Frank Mentzer's Aquaria), and cheaper writers came in for the better-paid regulars.

Yes, I tend to take a critical stance towards "well known facts" which is why I phrased it this way.

Can't remember, really. Ask Chirine, he knows best.

Good idea

Interesting Could you give some more specific examples?

HAHAHA. No, thanks. I have a dayjob, you know. :o

However, pretty much every name sounds SUSPICIOUSLY familiar; to a degree when I stop believing in coincidences. You might simply want to make a table - the results are surprising.

Okay, I understand. I am also quite busy so I will have to put it on the things to do list which is already pretty long, but at least it is now on the list.

Nothing written, lamentably, and only vague info I picked up here and there. Basically, the it encompasses all the games Mr Arneson ran with a new group after his friends from the FFC left the Twin Cities area; here's where the strong ties to Tekumel were explored, and where the emphasis of the shared stories switched towards Marfeldt, Ungulian, and, I think, the halflings from Boggy Bottom. It ended when Arneson himself moved away from the area, in 1982, and contact to many of the players of that generation broke off, for all the reasons that contact to friendly acquaintances tends to break off when you move 3,000 miles away. That's why many of those storylines were not really finished, or, for that matter, polished for publication. - Like that of Ungulian himself.

Yes that fits quite well with some of the timelines I have posted here on this forum. I assumed Marfeldt was earlier since his character description is from the Coot Invasions scenario part of the FFC, but the Tekumel stuff fits quite well.

Another possibility for the character Ungulian is actually that he was based off Duane Jenkins' earlier character but projected forward in time, though incursions into the lands of the Egg could certainly have occurred with this group.

Sure; if you can contact him, please do so! Now, I hope he is not offended by my speculation, As I said, very dififcult to escape that special sort of chivalric fantasy, back in 1986.

I dont see any reason to be offended by any of what you wrote. But then I am a fan of that type of fantasy.

-Havard

[Havard]

I could easily see porting N1: Against the Cult of the Reptile God to Blackmoor, using either the Temple of Id, Egg of Coot, or even the Frog Cult in place of that module's big bad.

Interesting! Not sure if I have a copy of that one or not, but it sure sounds like it could fit. Maybe even connect it to the Gatormen of the Barrier Swamp?

-Havard