11-23-2013, 05:54 AM
http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... Black-Moor
Snoring Rock:
So far using this forum, I have found the regular "haunters", to be quite knowledgeable, so I continue on asking questions of the great oracles...
Past the Valley of the Ancients, far to the east, somewhere north I guess, of Karak is the correct location for Blackmoor. I know there was once published, maybe not, the "First Fantasy Campaign Map". I would like to add this map and any connected information to my Wilderlands campaign. Is there somewhere to get old maps, PDF's, or anything on this? I have Dave Arneson's Balck Moor published by Zeitgeist Games, but would really like to expand upon it and put is where it was intended to go. I know it was used by the late and very Great Gary Gygax in Grey Hawk, but I want the JG-like version. Please enlighten me o great oracles.
*****************
James Mishler:
First Fantasy Campaign was indeed Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, as close to direct from the author's version as possible. The map therein is in 10 mile hexes, which means that Blackmoor is the size of four regular Wilderlands maps, if you use the standard 5-mile hex. You can use four hex sheets to re-draw it at 5-mile hexes to make it fit perfectly if you want.
All you need to do is get the original First Fantasy Campaign, and you can tack it on the Wilderlands map to the northeast, as you say. It fits with the southwestern quarter directly above the Valley of the Ancients map. Of course, this is easier said than done, as the FFC set is now rare and expensive on eBay (usually ~$50+ depending on condition), and no legal PDF was ever made, as the rights were no longer held by Judges Guild when that technology came around.
Note that there is, at this time, a map of Blackmoor from the FFC on eBay alone, going for dirt-cheap because someone colored it in... so if you just need the map (having the Zeitgeist verison, that is all you would need), you could pick that up probbaly at a song.
The DA 1 Blackmoor map is essentially the same, though they changed the scale to the 24-mile hexes of the Known World of the day, they didn't actually change the map in any essential way, save to make it full color. You could use that with 10-mile hexes, and it would still fit right.
The new Zeitgeist map has been re-hexed entirely, so it would not fit quite right. But there is far more info on Blackmoor itself in the Zeitgeist books than in the FFC; the FFC has lots of interesting tidbits about gaming in the day, bit is not really the best campaign guidebook for the setting.
*********************
Snoring Rock:
I found the current Zeitgeist edition of the compaign at Drive Thru RPG. Seeing as I get 25% discount today, it is indeed my lucky day. Thank you for the info. I looked at another site with lots of maps, noe really good for gaming, but geeeeee....how many versions, locations, etc, are there for Black Moor? I find it in Greyhawk and in Mystara's deep past, but not the same. I see no mention or Thonia in the Wilderlands. Is there an official link or is this just "one of those given" things?
**************
James Mishler:
The Blackmoor found in Greyhawk is not the same Blackmoor as developed by Dave Arneson. Gary Gygax named it in honor of Dave's campaign, but there was no relation between the two lands.
When Blackmoor was attached to the Wilderlands, in First Fantasy Campaign, Blackmoor was to the north east of the Wilderlands, and Karak directly east, so Thonia was presumed to be somewhere east by northeast, perhaps even east of Karak. No real details were ever developed in Wilderlands canon, and after Judges Guild lost the rights to FFC, there was never any mention of Blackmoor still being a part of the Widlerlands. So really, it is up to the individual judge (as it always is with anything in the Wilderlands, anyway).
The relationship between Mystara and Blackmoor developed later, and the Wilderlands did not fit into it at all. Blackmoor was in Mystara's past, as was Thonia. In the Mystaran version of Blackmoor, Thonia was a vast empire to the south and southeast.
************************
Snoring Rock:
Thank you James, you always seem to be able to answer all those hard to answer questions on the Wilderlands. Speaking of which; just how committed are you to continuing your work in WoHA? I think if you continue, I will follow. Not with C&C I am committed to 3.5, but the generic mix is good, I can convert as I need. I get to add my own flavor that way.
************
mtbdm:
If you still need a map I can tell you I got all my old JG maps from NobleKnight Games at www.nobleknight.com
*****
Snoring Rock:
Thank you mtbdm! I find more stuff by asking here than anywhere else. I am a JG-CSIO freak I suppose. I am chasing after everything Blackmoor now. Noble Knight has some very hard to find material. I bet the collectors love this site!
************
leadjunkie:
If you are collector, then this is the site you need to check out:
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/
******
Snoring Rock:
I visited the site. Speachless.....
I am not actually a collector per se, but there are a few items near and dear to my heart that are "must have" items.
******
MtbDM:
Yes, I do! Seriously I've found the bulk of the hard-to-find stuff in my D&D collection on Nobleknight. It's a lot better than getting sniped on E-bay and you KNOW you're not going to get screwed dealing with Aaron Leeder. He's a great guy to do business with.
****************
Snoring rock:
Ebay.....the mind shutters. Like everything it seems, it was wonderful when it started...then the greed sets in. My next conquest is finding just the level 2 map for Dragon Mouintain. I ma using that for Analagorn's lair in the Majestic Fastness.
****************
Leadjunkie:
Didn't you post in another thread that you bought Dragon Mountain in PDF format? Is it missing a map, or not come with maps? Let me know. I can copy mine and send it to you. Shhh... don't tell anyone.
********************
Snoring Rock:
Check this out, I downloaded it from Drive-Thru RPG....never noticed that the disclaimer clearly informs the purchaser that the 2nd level map is missing. Doh! But on the bright side, the module is most excellent. I have some tweaking to do, but this fits nicely. I would very much like to take you up on the offer, as I am working on this and now that my appetite is whetted I will go crazy if I dont find the map of the 2nd level. I walked aboud the house bumping into wall mindlessly uttering...2nd level, 2nd level. Not good when you have guests. Oh, you can send that 2nd level to ckell (at) charter (dot) net. Many thanks Sir Leadjunkie and please know I am indebted to thee.
***********************
Havard:
I like using Blackmoor and the Wilderlands in my historical Mystara
Havard
*****************************
James Mislher:
While officially they are distinct, as Havard and others do, one can most certainly use them together in one's own campaigns... I was merely stating the "official, canonical" stance on the relationship between the settings.
*********************************
Snoring rock:
and just to make things really confusing, I am using Glantri (set in Mystara) as Valon in the Wilderlands, with the principalities reoganized as the northern city states of Avalonians in the great glacier, and to the east i have Blackmoor. Its a crazy world huh?
************
Snoring Rock:
So far using this forum, I have found the regular "haunters", to be quite knowledgeable, so I continue on asking questions of the great oracles...
Past the Valley of the Ancients, far to the east, somewhere north I guess, of Karak is the correct location for Blackmoor. I know there was once published, maybe not, the "First Fantasy Campaign Map". I would like to add this map and any connected information to my Wilderlands campaign. Is there somewhere to get old maps, PDF's, or anything on this? I have Dave Arneson's Balck Moor published by Zeitgeist Games, but would really like to expand upon it and put is where it was intended to go. I know it was used by the late and very Great Gary Gygax in Grey Hawk, but I want the JG-like version. Please enlighten me o great oracles.
*****************
James Mishler:
First Fantasy Campaign was indeed Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, as close to direct from the author's version as possible. The map therein is in 10 mile hexes, which means that Blackmoor is the size of four regular Wilderlands maps, if you use the standard 5-mile hex. You can use four hex sheets to re-draw it at 5-mile hexes to make it fit perfectly if you want.
All you need to do is get the original First Fantasy Campaign, and you can tack it on the Wilderlands map to the northeast, as you say. It fits with the southwestern quarter directly above the Valley of the Ancients map. Of course, this is easier said than done, as the FFC set is now rare and expensive on eBay (usually ~$50+ depending on condition), and no legal PDF was ever made, as the rights were no longer held by Judges Guild when that technology came around.
Note that there is, at this time, a map of Blackmoor from the FFC on eBay alone, going for dirt-cheap because someone colored it in... so if you just need the map (having the Zeitgeist verison, that is all you would need), you could pick that up probbaly at a song.
The DA 1 Blackmoor map is essentially the same, though they changed the scale to the 24-mile hexes of the Known World of the day, they didn't actually change the map in any essential way, save to make it full color. You could use that with 10-mile hexes, and it would still fit right.
The new Zeitgeist map has been re-hexed entirely, so it would not fit quite right. But there is far more info on Blackmoor itself in the Zeitgeist books than in the FFC; the FFC has lots of interesting tidbits about gaming in the day, bit is not really the best campaign guidebook for the setting.
*********************
Snoring Rock:
I found the current Zeitgeist edition of the compaign at Drive Thru RPG. Seeing as I get 25% discount today, it is indeed my lucky day. Thank you for the info. I looked at another site with lots of maps, noe really good for gaming, but geeeeee....how many versions, locations, etc, are there for Black Moor? I find it in Greyhawk and in Mystara's deep past, but not the same. I see no mention or Thonia in the Wilderlands. Is there an official link or is this just "one of those given" things?
**************
James Mishler:
The Blackmoor found in Greyhawk is not the same Blackmoor as developed by Dave Arneson. Gary Gygax named it in honor of Dave's campaign, but there was no relation between the two lands.
When Blackmoor was attached to the Wilderlands, in First Fantasy Campaign, Blackmoor was to the north east of the Wilderlands, and Karak directly east, so Thonia was presumed to be somewhere east by northeast, perhaps even east of Karak. No real details were ever developed in Wilderlands canon, and after Judges Guild lost the rights to FFC, there was never any mention of Blackmoor still being a part of the Widlerlands. So really, it is up to the individual judge (as it always is with anything in the Wilderlands, anyway).
The relationship between Mystara and Blackmoor developed later, and the Wilderlands did not fit into it at all. Blackmoor was in Mystara's past, as was Thonia. In the Mystaran version of Blackmoor, Thonia was a vast empire to the south and southeast.
************************
Snoring Rock:
Thank you James, you always seem to be able to answer all those hard to answer questions on the Wilderlands. Speaking of which; just how committed are you to continuing your work in WoHA? I think if you continue, I will follow. Not with C&C I am committed to 3.5, but the generic mix is good, I can convert as I need. I get to add my own flavor that way.
************
mtbdm:
If you still need a map I can tell you I got all my old JG maps from NobleKnight Games at www.nobleknight.com
*****
Snoring Rock:
Thank you mtbdm! I find more stuff by asking here than anywhere else. I am a JG-CSIO freak I suppose. I am chasing after everything Blackmoor now. Noble Knight has some very hard to find material. I bet the collectors love this site!
************
leadjunkie:
If you are collector, then this is the site you need to check out:
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/
******
Snoring Rock:
I visited the site. Speachless.....
I am not actually a collector per se, but there are a few items near and dear to my heart that are "must have" items.
******
MtbDM:
Yes, I do! Seriously I've found the bulk of the hard-to-find stuff in my D&D collection on Nobleknight. It's a lot better than getting sniped on E-bay and you KNOW you're not going to get screwed dealing with Aaron Leeder. He's a great guy to do business with.
****************
Snoring rock:
Ebay.....the mind shutters. Like everything it seems, it was wonderful when it started...then the greed sets in. My next conquest is finding just the level 2 map for Dragon Mouintain. I ma using that for Analagorn's lair in the Majestic Fastness.
****************
Leadjunkie:
Didn't you post in another thread that you bought Dragon Mountain in PDF format? Is it missing a map, or not come with maps? Let me know. I can copy mine and send it to you. Shhh... don't tell anyone.
********************
Snoring Rock:
Check this out, I downloaded it from Drive-Thru RPG....never noticed that the disclaimer clearly informs the purchaser that the 2nd level map is missing. Doh! But on the bright side, the module is most excellent. I have some tweaking to do, but this fits nicely. I would very much like to take you up on the offer, as I am working on this and now that my appetite is whetted I will go crazy if I dont find the map of the 2nd level. I walked aboud the house bumping into wall mindlessly uttering...2nd level, 2nd level. Not good when you have guests. Oh, you can send that 2nd level to ckell (at) charter (dot) net. Many thanks Sir Leadjunkie and please know I am indebted to thee.
***********************
Havard:
Quote:jamesmishler wrote:
The relationship between Mystara and Blackmoor developed later, and the Wilderlands did not fit into it at all. Blackmoor was in Mystara's past, as was Thonia. In the Mystaran version of Blackmoor, Thonia was a vast empire to the south and southeast.
I like using Blackmoor and the Wilderlands in my historical Mystara
Havard
*****************************
James Mislher:
While officially they are distinct, as Havard and others do, one can most certainly use them together in one's own campaigns... I was merely stating the "official, canonical" stance on the relationship between the settings.
*********************************
Snoring rock:
and just to make things really confusing, I am using Glantri (set in Mystara) as Valon in the Wilderlands, with the principalities reoganized as the northern city states of Avalonians in the great glacier, and to the east i have Blackmoor. Its a crazy world huh?
************
Currently Running: The Blackmoor Vales Saga
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign