Humans of the Wilderlands/Blackmoor vs Mystara

[Havard]

Mystaran lore divides early humans into three groups:

The Neathar, the Oltecs and the Tangor. All three groups have a presence on Skothar. I have tried to organize the Wilderlands human races accordingly, even though Wilderlands humans are more of a mix between the groups:

NEATHAR

• Skandiks/Skandaharians
  
• Tharbrians
  
• Alryans (Tharbrian/Altanian Mix)
  
• Antillians (Alryan, Orichalan, Tharbrian mix)
  
• Dunael ( Orichalan, Tharbriana, Amazon, Altanian, Elf mix)
  
• Amazons
  
• Thonians
  
• Valemen
  
• Peshwah (Karakhan/Tharbrian Mix?)
  
• Viridians, Common (Tharbrian/Viridian Mix)

OLTEC

• Altantians (Red Skinned)
  
• Karakhans (Yellow skinned)

TANGOR

• Gishmesh
  
• Ghinorans

OTHER

• Orichalans
  
• True Viridians (Sar-Aigu descendants, as per LFC)
  
• Avalonians (Half-Elementals)
  
• Cavemen (Elphand)

Thoughts?

More details on these races here.

-Havard

[ripvanwormer]

I think the above is reasonable, though I could also see the Thonians as Oltec-descended and the High Thonians as Lhomarrian-descended.

Here's a more elaborate take on Wilderlands ethnicities: Selisengard campaign set-up.

Possible origins of the Avalonians
While most of the Ordo Elementarum ended up hundreds of years in the future, some were flung thousands of years in the past, where they mingled their bloodline with water elementals and merfolk and founded the nation of Valon in the Wilderlands.

Alternate explanation: the founders of Valon were (very) early Alphatian planar explorers who had colonized part of the Elemental Plane of Water. When their settlement was conquered by (marids, later waves of Alphatians, the Ordo Elementarum, the hydrax, or whatever), they fled to the Wilderlands, where they intermingled with merfolk and founded the nation of Valon.

[Havard]

I think the above is reasonable, though I could also see the Thonians as Oltec-descended and the High Thonians as Lhomarrian-descended.

Not to keen on making the Thonians Oltec descended as the Thonians are really such a European-esque culture. OTOH, I am VERY intrigued about having the High Thonians be desdended from Lhomar. Why isn't the Seer of Yhog postin here?!

Here's a more elaborate take on Wilderlands ethnicities: Selisengard campaign set-up.

Great link! I have now also dug up my Players Guide to the Wilderlands which makes it easier

Possible origins of the Avalonians
While most of the Ordo Elementarum ended up hundreds of years in the future, some were flung thousands of years in the past, where they mingled their bloodline with water elementals and merfolk and founded the nation of Valon in the Wilderlands.

Alternate explanation: the founders of Valon were (very) early Alphatian planar explorers who had colonized part of the Elemental Plane of Water. When their settlement was conquered by (marids, later waves of Alphatians, the Ordo Elementarum, the hydrax, or whatever), they fled to the Wilderlands, where they intermingled with merfolk and founded the nation of Valon.

These are two really cool ideas! I think I like the second version best. I have always wanted to make a connection between Blackmoor and Old Alphatia.

Actually an earlier idea of mine was that Alphatia was settled by Pre-Blackmoorian mages, like the ones founding the Duchy of the Peaks. Plenty of possibilities here...


-Havard

[ripvanwormer]

Not to keen on making the Thonians Oltec descended as the Thonians are really such a European-esque culture.

Good point, though I kind of like James Mishler's take on Thonian ethnicity. "The majority of the Thonian population was of a combined Neathar/Tangor extraction; tall, lean build, olive or dusky skin with long, flowing black or brown hair and black or brown eyes. The northern principalities were populated by Neathar folk, while the southern principalities were Tangor in origin."

Are you planning on giving the Altantians more of an Oltec-style culture? A lot of the Wilderlands is enough of a blank slate that you can do anything you want with them; although the Player's Guide had them worshiping Greek gods, that's easily changed. Supposedly the "pureblood" Altanians get their blood-red skin from outer planar Lords of Chaos, rather than a human ethnicity (Player's Guide, 20), but perhaps that's just a myth and they're really Oltecs.

[Havard]

Not to keen on making the Thonians Oltec descended as the Thonians are really such a European-esque culture.

Good point, though I kind of like James Mishler's take on Thonian ethnicity. "The majority of the Thonian population was of a combined Neathar/Tangor extraction; tall, lean build, olive or dusky skin with long, flowing black or brown hair and black or brown eyes. The northern principalities were populated by Neathar folk, while the southern principalities were Tangor in origin."

Ah, I had forgotten that Mishler actually adressed this issue. This makes a lot of sense though. DA1 mentions the dark skinned humans known as Bolgers who are likely related to Tangor. Neathar/Tangor mix it is. I could actually see the Thonian Empire include other human ethnicities as well, similar to the Roman Empire.

Are you planning on giving the Altantians more of an Oltec-style culture? A lot of the Wilderlands is enough of a blank slate that you can do anything you want with them; although the Player's Guide had them worshiping Greek gods, that's easily changed. Supposedly the "pureblood" Altanians get their blood-red skin from outer planar Lords of Chaos, rather than a human ethnicity (Player's Guide, 20), but perhaps that's just a myth and they're really Oltecs.

That is a good question. I guess it could go either way. The Greek connection does seem logical, especially with the city state based culture.

My original plan was to use the toned down version of the Wilderlands, where skin colors are limited to the realistic realm, but having them have planar connections is pretty cool too.

Food for thought.

-Havard

[ripvanwormer]

Doing some more research, it seems like the ancient Empire of Kelnore would be the most appropriate place for a Greco-Roman-style pantheon. They ruled just about everyone at one point (including the Altanians), but Tarantis is the location of what was once their capital. The Greco-Roman pantheon might mainly exist in Kelnorean ruins today, or the Tarantians might venerate it, or it might be more or less evenly spread.

I was trying to think of ways to link this timeline of the Oltec Man to a Blackmoor/Wilderlands history. One thing that caught my eye was the Valoin, a prehistoric people who became the ancestors of both the Skandaharians and Valemen. While the authors' decision to make them Oltec rather than Neathar-descended was odd, I thought the Valoin might also be ancestors of the Avalonians and their savage Valonarian cousins.

[ripvanwormer]

Oh, I see. This page indicates that they assumed Oltecs were native to Skothar and Neathar were native to Brun. If anything, I'd assume the opposite.

[Baron]

Doing some more research, it seems like the ancient Empire of Kelnore would be the most appropriate place for a Greco-Roman-style pantheon. They ruled just about everyone at one point (including the Altanians), but Tarantis is the location of what was once their capital.

Wanted to make sure you were aware that the Kelnore stuff was added into the Wilderlands timeline by the Necromancer Games edition, but originally had nothing to do with it. It was simply a separate campaign that you could place anywhere or run on its own; had nothing to do with the official Wilderlands history or background, and completely unrelated to Tarantis or anyplace else in the published world.

But by all means, if you want to work it in, feel free.

[ripvanwormer]

Wanted to make sure you were aware that the Kelnore stuff was added into the Wilderlands timeline by the Necromancer Games edition

I wasn't aware! Thanks, my only Wilderlands sources are recent. That adds perspective.

Also, the modern population of Tarantis would be of primarily Tangor (Gishmesh) descent.

But putting aside for the moment the question of whether or not Kelnore belongs in the Wilderlands in that place and time, and whether or not they worshiped Greek gods, the Player's Guide to the Wilderlands has the following timeline. I'm assuming that 4400 BCCC = 1000 in the Thonian calendar and 4000 BC in the Thyatian calendar for simplicity's sake.

-3,721 BCCC/-7,121/BC 12,121: The fall of Kelnore.
-2,927 BCCC/-6,327/BC 11,327: The Dragon Lords begin their rule in Oricha.
-2,391 BCCC/-5,791/BC 10,791: The War of the Pious and the Philosophers.

There's very little canonical history in Mystara that old, but Geoff Gander's history of Lhomarr begins at about that point in history.

-2,600 BCCC/-6000/BC 11,000: Lhomarrians arise in Skothar as hunter-gatherers.
-2,300 BCCC/-5,700/BC 10,700: Lhomarrians begin migrating to the southern isles.
-2,100 BCCC/-5,500/BC 10,500: Lhomarrians discover island of Lhomarr.
-2,000 BCCC/-5,400/BC 10,400: Remaining Lhomarrians in Skothar are defeated by the Tangor people.

So from the point of view of someone trying to reconcile these settings, it seems reasonable to assume that the ancestors of the Lhomarrians were fleeing the aftermath of the War of the Pious and the Philosophers, and that they might have actually been descendants of the Empire of Kelnore, whose last remnants were defeated by the (Tangor) Gishmesh in 2,000 BCCC.

[Havard]

Wanted to make sure you were aware that the Kelnore stuff was added into the Wilderlands timeline by the Necromancer Games edition, but originally had nothing to do with it. It was simply a separate campaign that you could place anywhere or run on its own; had nothing to do with the official Wilderlands history or background, and completely unrelated to Tarantis or anyplace else in the published world.

I also didn't know that. It really helps explain the long history of the Wilderlands. I could never really figure out what Kelnore was about. I am keeping Kelnore in, but may have to think some more about how to fit things together for my own campaign.

.

-3,721 BCCC/-7,121/BC 12,121: The fall of Kelnore.
-2,927 BCCC/-6,327/BC 11,327: The Dragon Lords begin their rule in Oricha.
-2,391 BCCC/-5,791/BC 10,791: The War of the Pious and the Philosophers.

There's very little canonical history in Mystara that old, but Geoff Gander's history of Lhomarr begins at about that point in history.

-2,600 BCCC/-6000/BC 11,000: Lhomarrians arise in Skothar as hunter-gatherers.
-2,300 BCCC/-5,700/BC 10,700: Lhomarrians begin migrating to the southern isles.
-2,100 BCCC/-5,500/BC 10,500: Lhomarrians discover island of Lhomarr.
-2,000 BCCC/-5,400/BC 10,400: Remaining Lhomarrians in Skothar are defeated by the Tangor people.

So from the point of view of someone trying to reconcile these settings, it seems reasonable to assume that the ancestors of the Lhomarrians were fleeing the aftermath of the War of the Pious and the Philosophers, and that they might have actually been descendants of the Empire of Kelnore, whose last remnants were defeated by the (Tangor) Gishmesh in 2,000 BCCC.

This is very interesting. From my own speculations on how all of this ties together I have so far kept things quite loose when we go further back than 10.000 BC

I wanted to make a connection between the Carnifex (of Mystara) and the Markrabs (of the Wilderlands), but different fan timelines for Mystara are inconsistent so forcing the issue too much might only create controversy.

I do like integrating the Lhomarrians better in this though. Having the Tangor/Gishmesh defeat the Kelnore and the Lhomarrians be remnants of that empire would work well. Would that mean that the Thonians are descendants from a Kelnore/Tangor mix then?


-Havard