5e - Sell it to me.

[Rafael]

Hiho,

So, the "playtest packs" are out, and people start a more sophisticated discussion about 5e.

Me, I am not too interested in it so far, simply because new game, pretty expensive,
and I just cut my entire gaming library in HALF, leaving me still with a slick number of about 120 books, boxes, and booklets.

But as a principle, YAY.

So, what is my reason to spend that money?

SELL me that game, oh gullible fanboys of the evil beast Wizbro!

Yours,

Rafe

[Havard]

I dont know much about the game yet, but I know that I will buy it


-Havard

[Option]

Well, I can't sell the game to you but I can say why it might be appealing to me.

I dabbled in roleplaying games a bit in my high school days but never actually played D&D. (mostly D6 Star Wars, Gurps, and a few other misc games) Fast forward a number of years and my old gaming buddy and I decide to try out role playing again. The wives are interested as well as my bother/sister in-laws. After a bit of research, we decide to give 4e a try since we wanted a professional product with an established setting and it was marketed as being less complex than previous editions (a bonus since the 3 women had never role-played).

However, despite playing every few weeks for a year, our interest quickly waned. The short-answer reason is that the game was too focused on tactical combat. 95% of the character sheet was devoted to combat stats and 95% of our gameplay was devoted to combat encounters. Instead of using our imaginations and coming up with creative solutions, we stared at a grid while trying to decide which of our power cards to use.

While 5e will probably still not be an ideal system for me, at least they addressing a lot of the problems we had with 4e:

The grid is no longer required
At Will/Encounter/Daily power system is gone
More emphasis on fluff/description
Skills are decoupled from a given attribute (allowing more creative application)
Magical items are more rare/special and no longer an integrated part of character advancement
Character advancement has been scaled back to prevent excessively big numbers at high level
No more tracking a bunch of +2 and -2 modifiers (replaced w/ new Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic)
The Background and Theme mechanic add more depth to characters while still having an impact on the crunchy side of things
Combat rounds are faster and combat encounters are resolved quicker

These are just the things that come to my mind. However, it seems that most people posting on the internet who love 3.5 or Pathfinder claim they see no reason to convert. People who love 4e seem to be posting that they really dislike the new system. Thus, I am thinking 5e is aimed at people like me who tried 4e and didn’t like it but are turned off by the more complex 3.5 and Pathfinder rules.

[Havard]

These are just the things that come to my mind. However, it seems that most people posting on the internet who love 3.5 or Pathfinder claim they see no reason to convert. People who love 4e seem to be posting that they really dislike the new system. Thus, I am thinking 5e is aimed at people like me who tried 4e and didn’t like it but are turned off by the more complex 3.5 and Pathfinder rules.

If this is true then I am also very much interested. I liked 3E/PF, but they do tend to become too complex for my taste. 4E just seemed like too big a departure from traditional D&D with its high focus on tactical play. We already have C&C as an excellent alternative as a rules light 3E, but the point with 5E seems to be that each group can determine the level of complexity according to their preferences.

-Havard

[Rafael]

I had the same issues with 4e. Without elaborating too much, I think it was an insult to the fans.

Just as an example: So, the battlegrid was mandatory in 4e.
But the maps from the modules essentially weren't printable, or usable, for that matter.

That was not "bad rules", that was simply "bad overall quality", and I don't spend money for that.


5e sure LOOKS promising, but I think it comes a few years too late:
Like Havard said, with C&C, True20, LotFP, LL, and, the best acronym so far, DCCRPG, we have already have good "3e light",
or, "D&D light" variants out there that are distinctively more economical, well-supported in their own right, and,
most of all, not the notorious money leechers that "official D&D" has become at this point.

I mean, I get it, it's a man thing: We need those to spend those twenty or thirty bucks a month that make
us feel that job and family don't entirely own us yet. However, at the same time, especially with veterans of the RPG
hobby like us, we can perfectly spend the next few years collecting old stuff on ebay, without buying into the next hype machine.

So, again, why 5e, and not other games?

I am not sold yet.

[finarvyn]

So, again, why 5e, and not other games?

I am not sold yet.

I'm not sure if we'll get an answer to this question for a while. In the old days, "Dungeons and Dragons" had the brand name and if you didn't play D&D you were playing something inferior somehow. I'm not sure if the D&D name is enough to sustain the hobby any more.

Twelve years ago was the OGL announcement, and many folks thought that it spelled doom-n-gloom for D&D because now others could make D&D-style products to compete directly with WotC. I think that we finally are seeing the result of this OGL thing, when the D&D folks are trying to reunite the fan base but there are already so many products out there (DCC, C&C, etc) to compete with them.

Even worse, WotC's own actions in creating 4E turned off many folks who complained but reluctantly joined the 3E craze. While there are many 4E fans, there are an equal number of anti-4E folks out there. All they did was further split the fan base.

Bottom line is that I don't know if the D&D name is strong enough any more to lead the pack. I'm willing to look at the playtest stuff as long as it's free and as long as it follows an "old school" philosophy, but the instant they turn their back on their roots many of us will turn our back on them and go to the alternates. I was a playtester for C&C and for DCC RPG and both products are (to me) far superior to the current 4E.

I'm not sure I can "sell you" on 5E because I can't say if I'm "sold" on it myself. The game has some good parts and I have a lot of great memories about old D&D so pure nostalgia gives me the motivation to give them another chance, even though the people who own the D&D name aren't even the same folks who pioneered the game I love 35 years ago.

Heck, I may have just talked myself out of 5E.

[Rafael]

I agree with pretty much all you wrote, Fin.

The only thing is really, I think it's wrong to think in contrasts here: I don't *hate* 4e, I just have no use for it.
What was it? 1200 pages of basic rules, with bad quality or no setting support at all?

How would a game like that enrich my personal gaming experience?

That's pretty much the same question I will ask 5e. I play maybe once a month, when I am not on the road,
or with a project, and for that, a game has really to be exceptional. If, say, 5e starts with "Temple of the Frog" as its first release,
or the Manual comes with a revamped Greyhawk Gaz, then, hell yeah. But if it's basically a random game that just so happens
to have a familiar name, and if it requires five or more purchases, then I'll skip and rather spend my money on ebay.

I keep bitching about money - it's not that I am that cheap, or broke, or whatever.
It's that an average of 100 bucks for a new game is a lot of money, and I think the gaming industry fails to understand that.
Like, that's two new video games, ten paperback novels, three months of BJJ classes, or an average economy class plane ticket.

(And, let's be honest, the D&D core books plus some basic supplements are more in the 150-200 $ range.)

So, indeed, 5e better be EXACTLY the game that fans demand, which is, oldschool-oriented and moving away from the grid.

Otherwise, do you really think people bother WHAT generic fantasy game they're playing? :wink: No biz without Drizz'!

[Havard]

I am always excited about any new edition. A new edition brings new ideas to the game, even if it doesnt turn out to be better than what we already have. The things that will make me most excited about this new edition is if it comes with a new setting, new races or something like that.

At this point we dont really know enough to make anyone excited or not. What we do know is that it seems like this edition can be played in a more traditional style, rather than forcing the kind of tactical, miniature based play that 4E did. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and it seems like 5E can be run that way too, but at least with this edition we will have a choice.

I honestly don't care much how much it will cost. I will leave it to the economy guys at WotC to figure out how much they can charge for it in order to make a profit. I am pretty sure that I can afford it anyway.

Will I buy it? Definately.
Will I play it beyond some play testing? Probably not. New editons are mostly for new gamers anyway.


-Havard

[Rafael]

I am on the same page with you there, except only that I am not so much focused on D&D,
and more on other rule systems and settings as well. So, I am more keen to skip one or two editions
of D&D, and instead, try other stuff. So, what happens to D&D doesn't impact me in my gaming THAT MUCH,
as, whenever I stroll through my FLGS, I am usually as deep in the "Other RPGs" section, as in the D&D section.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am happy that Wizbro seems to finally be listening to their fans for a chance,
and I'll certainly look into the game - but right now, I still have to find something about the product that seriously interests me.

That's why I was asking you guys. I hope they hire a few capable people for whatever new setting is supposed to eventually come...

[finarvyn]

Sounds like we're all on the same wavelength on this.

I think that 5E has some great potential.

However, there are other products (OD&D, DCC, C&C) that fill the same basic niche in my gaming life and I don't see any particular element of 5E that threatens to displace those other games from my "must play" list.

I'm still excited about what I see in 5E, however, and if it continues to impress I will probably buy a copy. Strange, right?