Timeline Redux I: Ancient period

[aldarron]

At it again I am. The following awaits your commentary (or rotten tomatoes if preferred). Rather than one giant post, I've broken it into three for everyon's convenience. I've removed system specific stuff. Oh and this is an FFC ordered timeline, with the priority being FFC/Garbage Pits and Player recolections > DAB books > DA series. With small exceptions, this is meant to flesh out the timeline the 4eTFC, pg 147-8.

Know, oh Prince…
The Northern Marches lie on a world with two moons and wondrous magic (Greg Svenson, Blackmoor forum). It is a swamp and lake riddled, far northern region of some 4,346 square miles (FFC80:17) in which, unsurprisingly, winter is no stranger, typically lasting from October till May. (FFC80:26) The native population of the north includes orcs, elves, dwarves, ents, and hobbits. (FFC, DA1:4).

Once, long ago, the kingdom of the Elves stretched across the North, from coast to coast. (PG:197; 4eTFC:183) As the numbers and strength of the Elves has slowly waned, humans and others have moved in and cobbled together several polities. Hereafter follows that history in brief:

- 800 (+/- 300)
Construction of the great tower of shining blue glass in the Valley of the ancients. (4eTFC:192, true date unknown)
Humans known as Picts begin settling within the borders of the Elven Kingdom. The Picts are a freshwater based culture who build their settlements on islands within the rivers and swamps. (FFC 80: 86, Havard- Arneson letter) Initially, the Picts rely on bronze technologies, are highly superstitious and follow the leadership of religious leaders called wokan. (TWC:3; DoCBM:7 – The history of Callas Anethenitos. the earlier parts of which are considered largely apocryphal by most authorities) (wokan – 4eTFC:99)

0 -
Founding of the Great Kingdom, (Grand Kingdom) southeast of the Northern Marches. (4eTFC:148)
Beginning of the reign of Uhlmar Ithamis, Lord of the Elves. (Havard, date approximate)

26 –
Establishment of a trading post at Maus. (4eTFC:167, date derived from TWC:3 ”almost immediately after the founding of the empire”)

324 – 398
Rule of the Mad Wizard over the Black Moors of the North. Fortifications are built on the future site of Blackmoor Castle on top of Cumasti Elf ruins. The wizards laboratory is built nearby. The mad wizard’s defeat in battle resulted in the creation of a 60’ wide “bottomless” crater – The Wizards Pit - where his laboratory had been. (4eTFC:157, 158;”clear signs of Cumasti craftsmanship.” “ruins of at least three previous layers”, dates assumed/approximate)

398 –
A group of ambitious wizards found the Red Coven and establish a settlement in the diamond rich Superstition Mountains Called by some the Land of the Red Coven, it becomes more formally known as the Duchy of the Peaks. (D&DSuppII:37; true date unknown but Red Coven in the “Northwest” assumed to be associated with the Duchy of the Peaks due to the names of Superstitions, Starmorgan, Starport)

440 -
Conquest and settlement by Robert I, king of All Geneva. He creates a ducal seat (assumed by later references to dukes) at “Blackmoor” and builds a fortification at Glendower (Rampart#10, presumed date) and builds Blackmoor Castle over the Cumasti and Mad Wizard ruins on Dragonsrock. (FFC80:17 Date must predate Temple of Id and post date Mad Wizard. FFC dates never exceed 5 or 6 centuries and there is no reason whatever to push back the date of Blackmoor castle further, creating centuries of empty history. Note: Dragon Rock probably was meant to refer to Serpent Rock island in Blackmoor bay, but I choose to mis-read “Dragon Rock, the hill where Blackmoor Castle itself stands,” as one thought.)
Early, Thonian settlers begin to clear the land and establish hamlets and farms utilizing hay based agriculture. In addition to sheep (DW42:M3), they begin to domesticate the large wild bison that constitute one of the most common wild animals in the area. The domesticated bison soon become the dominant farm animal in the Northern Marches. (FFC80:17)

450 –
Uberstar Khazakhum establishes the Great Mines at Mount Uberstar. (DA1:63; 4eTFC:189 “nearly 600 years of mining”)

471 – 497
The Bloody Duke, a sadist and architectural megalomaniac, reigns in Blackmoor Castle. He greatly expands the dungeons to a depth of 11 levels or more, connecting to even older passages and giving the levels their present form. (DoCBM:184,185 “hundreds of years”; 4eTFC:158; FFC80:21, date assumed to be related to construction of the Temple of Id, which is known to connect by tunnel to Blackmoor dungeons)

474 –
Construction of the Temple of the Id. (FFC80:18, DoCBM:146 ”Worship of Id started shortly before the year 500.” date based on the supposition that the temple was not operational for more than a few decades )

497 –
The Bloody Duke killed in his own dungeon by 13 escaped prisoners. (DoCBM:184,185)

500 –
Destruction of the Temple of Id. (FFC80:18)
An Evil wizard imprisoned in a workshop he has constructed in The Wizard’s Pit. (FFC80:21)

[Havard]

At it again I am. The following awaits your commentary (or rotten tomatoes if preferred). Rather than one giant post, I've broken it into three for everyon's convenience. I've removed system specific stuff. Oh and this is an FFC ordered timeline, with the priority being FFC/Garbage Pits and Player recolections > DAB books > DA series. With small exceptions, this is meant to flesh out the timeline the 4eTFC, pg 147-8.

What is the end goal of this project? The idea of having the DAB books take preference over the DA modules still sounds strange to me, but it also seems like you are changing things from the timeline in the DAB books without any reference to said events in the FFC/Garbage Pits:

- 800 (+/- 300)
Construction of the great tower of shining blue glass in the Valley of the ancients. (4eTFC:192, true date unknown)
Humans known as Picts begin settling within the borders of the Elven Kingdom. The Picts are a freshwater based culture who build their settlements on islands within the rivers and swamps. (FFC 80: 86, Havard- Arneson letter) Initially, the Picts rely on bronze technologies, are highly superstitious and follow the leadership of religious leaders called wokan. (TWC:3; DoCBM:7 – The history of Callas Anethenitos. the earlier parts of which are considered largely apocryphal by most authorities) (wokan – 4eTFC:99)

There are various interpretations of what the Tower of Glass is. Rafe has some interesthing theories on this, which would help date it. Picts do indeed seem to have been around from ancient times. I connect Picts and Valemen. Bob Meyer suggests Picts were replaced by Orcs IIRC.

0 -
Founding of the Great Kingdom, (Grand Kingdom) southeast of the Northern Marches. (4eTFC:148)
Beginning of the reign of Uhlmar Ithamis, Lord of the Elves. (Havard, date approximate)

I like seeing Uhlmar in here. As you probably know, he is mentioned in the D20 line, but named by me.

26 –
Establishment of a trading post at Maus. (4eTFC:167, date derived from TWC:3 ”almost immediately after the founding of the empire”)

Having it from early on makes sense.

324 – 398
Rule of the Mad Wizard over the Black Moors of the North. Fortifications are built on the future site of Blackmoor Castle on top of Cumasti Elf ruins. The wizards laboratory is built nearby. The mad wizard’s defeat in battle resulted in the creation of a 60’ wide “bottomless” crater – The Wizards Pit - where his laboratory had been. (4eTFC:157, 158;”clear signs of Cumasti craftsmanship.” “ruins of at least three previous layers”, dates assumed/approximate)

As you know, I have placed this wizard's fate in the year 500, linking it too with the War against Id. Really it could have happened at any time.

398 –
A group of ambitious wizards found the Red Coven and establish a settlement in the diamond rich Superstition Mountains Called by some the Land of the Red Coven, it becomes more formally known as the Duchy of the Peaks. (D&DSuppII:37; true date unknown but Red Coven in the “Northwest” assumed to be associated with the Duchy of the Peaks due to the names of Superstitions, Starmorgan, Starport)

David Ross places this in 500-525 range.

440 -
Conquest and settlement by Robert I, king of All Geneva. He creates a ducal seat (assumed by later references to dukes) at “Blackmoor” and builds a fortification at Glendower (Rampart#10, presumed date) and builds Blackmoor Castle over the Cumasti and Mad Wizard ruins on Dragonsrock. (FFC80:17 Date must predate Temple of Id and post date Mad Wizard. FFC dates never exceed 5 or 6 centuries and there is no reason whatever to push back the date of Blackmoor castle further, creating centuries of empty history. Note: Dragon Rock probably was meant to refer to Serpent Rock island in Blackmoor bay, but I choose to mis-read “Dragon Rock, the hill where Blackmoor Castle itself stands,” as one thought.)
Early, Thonian settlers begin to clear the land and establish hamlets and farms utilizing hay based agriculture. In addition to sheep (DW42:M3), they begin to domesticate the large wild bison that constitute one of the most common wild animals in the area. The domesticated bison soon become the dominant farm animal in the Northern Marches. (FFC80:17)

I disagree with this. It is a generally agreed upon fact that Robert I founded the Empire. This is specified in the D20 line to which you give preference.

450 –
Uberstar Khazakhum establishes the Great Mines at Mount Uberstar. (DA1:63; 4eTFC:189 “nearly 600 years of mining”)

DA1 says nearly half a century. And the description of Uberstar as the ruler for 500 years. Ross places it in 500-525.

471 – 497
The Bloody Duke, a sadist and architectural megalomaniac, reigns in Blackmoor Castle. He greatly expands the dungeons to a depth of 11 levels or more, connecting to even older passages and giving the levels their present form. (DoCBM:184,185 “hundreds of years”; 4eTFC:158; FFC80:21, date assumed to be related to construction of the Temple of Id, which is known to connect by tunnel to Blackmoor dungeons)

Works. This is a different Bloody Duke from the one I have recently described, but the FFC says there was more than one such Duke.

474 –
Construction of the Temple of the Id. (FFC80:18, DoCBM:146 ”Worship of Id started shortly before the year 500.” date based on the supposition that the temple was not operational for more than a few decades )

Works, though it seems a bit early.

497 –
The Bloody Duke killed in his own dungeon by 13 escaped prisoners. (DoCBM:184,185)

500 –
Destruction of the Temple of Id. (FFC80:18)
An Evil wizard imprisoned in a workshop he has constructed in The Wizard’s Pit. (FFC80:21)

Didn't you have another wizard be imprisoned there earlier?

In general it doesnt really make sense to me to go against David Ross' Timeline unless there are references which specifically proves it to be wrong. David Ross' timeline was incorporated wholesale into the D20 line which means it was accepted by ZGG and probably this includes Arneson as well. Adding things is a different matter of course, but changing dates with only circumstantial evidence is a tough sell.




-Havard

[aldarron]

What is the end goal of this project? -Havard

Good question. To have a timeline centered on original FFC material. Also I'm considering possible fanzine publication.

The idea of having the DAB books take preference over the DA modules still sounds strange to me,
-Havard

That's cool. The DA series has long held center stage and will certainly continue to for lots of folks. OTOH having the DAB books take precedence didn't seem so strange to Dave Arneson et al....

but it also seems like you are changing things from the timeline in the DAB books without any reference to said events in the FFC/Garbage Pits:
-Havard

No. Changes are very few from the 4eTFC timeline.

They consist of the redate of Uberstars mine to match the text as quoted - More on that in a bit.

Placing Robert I later (discussed below)

Ignoring the DA4 Tenian material where it conflicts with FFC Tenian material.

I think that's it.

As you know, I have placed this wizard's fate in the year 500, linking it too with the War against Id. Really it could have happened at any time.
-Havard

The record points to a period prior to Robert I because:
- the present castle was built by Robert I (FFC80:18)
- the present castle was built on three layers of ruins (referenced in the timeline)
- The Mad Wizard Lived "Long before the present castle was constructed." 4eTFC

Hence, while the dating is definetly debatable, it must predate Robert I. There are other supporting bits, but I'm too lazy to type it all.

398 –
A group of ambitious wizards found the Red Coven ...

David Ross places this in 500-525 range.
-Havard

Its just a guess on my part and on Ross's and could be that late. I chose 398 to imply a possible link to the destruction of the Mad Wizard.

I'm impressed with what Ross attempted to do. I'm not impressed with his results, there are a great many issues in his timeline when one really begins to review it critically. The "500-525 range" being one of them. Why this range here when none of the other dates are like that? The answer is that Ross repeatedly confused his start date. He worked from 1035 (by mistake), 1025, and 1000 and applied them inconsistently. The only reason it's 500 - 525 is because he was waffling on whether it should be 1025 - 500 or 1000 - 500.

440 -
Conquest and settlement by Robert I, king of All Geneva. He creates a ducal seat (assumed by later references to dukes) at “Blackmoor” and builds a fortification at Glendower (Rampart#10, presumed date) and builds Blackmoor Castle over the Cumasti and Mad Wizard ruins on Dragonsrock. (FFC80:17 Date must predate Temple of Id and post date Mad Wizard. FFC dates never exceed 5 or 6 centuries and there is no reason whatever to push back the date of Blackmoor castle further, creating centuries of empty history.

I disagree with this. It is a generally agreed upon fact that Robert I founded the Empire. This is specified in the D20 line to which you give preference.
-Havard

Yes, it too was once generally agreed that dinosaurs were reptiles and the sun circled the earth , until I see it in print in an "official" product, I'll suppose its okay to question recieved wisdom.

I've looked through all the written material I have and can't find anything saying Robert I founds the Thonian Empire - only that he founds blackmoor. I don't have everything though and will change the timeline if somebody can give me a quote.

Regarding the date, FFC 80:17 speaks of a "recorded history" prior to Robert. The only reference I've seen is in TFC timeline and there I choose to see it as imprecise - "sometime between 0 and 500". I know its a bit of handwaving on my part, but since, as far as I can tell, they were just copying a date Ross made up, I feel the implications of the FFC are more relevant.

I'm happy to be proven wrong though.

450 –
Uberstar Khazakhum establishes the Great Mines at Mount Uberstar. (DA1:63; 4eTFC:189 “nearly 600 years of mining”)

DA1 says nearly half a century. And the description of Uberstar as the ruler for 500 years. Ross places it in 500-525.
-Havard

Already criticised that 500-525 business above. :roll: For the founding of the mine, most sources say "more than 500" and the "nearly 600" quoted above. 1030 - 580 (nearly 600) or 1000 - 550 (more than 500) was an attempt to reconcile these statements.

474 –
Construction of the Temple of the Id. (FFC80:18, DoCBM:146 ”Worship of Id started shortly before the year 500.” date based on the supposition that the temple was not operational for more than a few decades )

Works, though it seems a bit early.
-Havard

Maybe a little? what would you suggest? Notice that the implication of the dates are that the Bloody Duke permitted or even sponsored the temple.

An Evil wizard imprisoned in a workshop he has constructed in The Wizard’s Pit. (FFC80:21)

Didn't you have another wizard be imprisoned there earlier?
-Havard[/quote]

nope :wink:

In general it doesnt really make sense to me to go against David Ross' Timeline unless there are references which specifically proves it to be wrong. David Ross' timeline was incorporated wholesale into the D20 line which means it was accepted by ZGG and probably this includes Arneson as well. Adding things is a different matter of course, but changing dates with only circumstantial evidence is a tough sell.

-Havard

If you check the references I gave against what Ross gives, you might be surprised. Also, the TFC timeline certainly does not accept Ross wholesale, a great deal of Ross was edit out or moved.

[finarvyn]

An interesting and highly academic discussion so far.

I may be all messed up, but I tend to think of the FFC as being the most fundamental source, followed by the DA modules, and lastly the 3E/4E material. Logically I guess it comes down to the notion that FFC was 100% Dave, the DA modules were written some by Dave and some by others, and for the 3E stuff I can't decide how much Dave wrote versus how much he consulted.

Add to that the fact that there are many Blackmoors, and each has its own dates. I tend to default to the original campaign where possible, but Blackmoor is also blended with the Wilderlands (Judges Guild) campaign, Mystara (DA) campaign, and perhaps others. I get to where I can't keep 'em all straight anymore, which is what has limited my own attempts for a timeline project.

To play devil's advocate, however, I can see where one can argue that the newest material reflects what Dave inteneded, and that it corrects and supercedes previous versions. I just like the FFC so darned much....

[aldarron]

An interesting and highly academic discussion so far.

...To play devil's advocate, however, I can see where one can argue that the newest material reflects what Dave inteneded, and that it corrects and supercedes previous versions. I just like the FFC so darned much....

Yep, me too Fin. Basically, anything that contradicted FFC was a non starter for this project. My goal was to prioritize things in the order in which Dave had control over what was said in the final product.

[aldarron]

Brought this over from the other thread because the discussion is productive but as Havard says is derailing the thread and counterproductive to its purpose.

Right, well I dunno what's in Domesday #13 but haven't seen that mentioned before. Would be "proof" enough to suit me if it does say Robert I, is either a ruler or founder of the great empire. Intriguing possibility though. As it stands, I still see no reason, and perhaps especially on a meta level, to equate FFC's Geneva with great Kingdome. Its like equating the king of england with the ceasar of the roman empire. - meaning Geneva may at times be a part of a greater whole but is not a substitute for it. As it stands I prefer not to somehow read "founder of Thonia" into "king of all Geneva" - two very seperate centitiess, it seems to me.

Fun little puzle though.

I find it very puzzling that you are so resistant to this idea. Here is how it worked. The C&C Society world map was based partially on North America. Different Refrees were assigned different parts of the realm. The heart of the C&C Society was in the area corresponding to Lake Geneva. The King of the C&C Society was Rob Kuntz, as demonstrated here. The reference to Robert I in the FFC is a nod to Kuntz and the C&C Society.

Well, the simple answer is I'm a logical guy Havard and reasoning that runs something like A is B, and A is C, therefore B must equate to C is a logical fallacy (Illicit Major). Actually, I’m a little puzzled why you are so resistant to the later date idea since it opens up some real design possibilities.

Follow me here:

The Castle and Crusades society war games on an imaginary map made up of multiple Kingdoms.

The map is generally referred to as the map of the Great kingdom.

The Great Kingdom (later Thonia) is roughly laid out on the American Midwest, including cities which are analogs to Chicago Illinois, Lake Geneva Wisconsin, and other places.

Rob Kuntz is King of the Castle and Crusades society.

Rob Kuntz Lives in Lake Geneva.

Rob Kuntz is given a tributary role in Blackmoor as Robert I the King of Geneva.

Therefore:

Geneva = the Great kingdom, or

Therefore
Robert the Ist King of Geneva is the founder of the Great kingdom

Obviously, neither conclusion is either supported or excluded by the premises. They aren’t proper conclusions at all. But, as Geneva would, by all appearances (both meta and in game) appear to be a kingdom within the borders of the Great Kingdom map, it does not seems likely King Robert Ist was intended as anything more grand than king of Geneva and founder of Blackmoor. Because Rob Kuntz is King of the C&C society does make Robert a king, but it does not make him either king or founder of Thonia. Further, the implication in the FFC is that of someone who’s existence was not so far distant in time and nothing in the FFC is beyond circa 500 years.

Now in fairness to Ross and to the 4e timeline where it copies him here, it is not entirely clear that Ross really intended to place Robert 1st definitively at year 0. There is no year directly across from the statement and it appears right before the year 500. Given the sense of the FFC info given above, that could be read as “sometime after 0, sometime close to 500”, without too much trouble.

Its far simpler (occams razor) and truer to the text to treat Robert 1st not as founder of the Thonian empire (that’s Rafe’s idea I think – its not written anywhere), but as a king of a kingdom or empire called Geneva and as the founder of Blackmoor as a fief in the circa 400 - 450 range than it is to explain 400+ years of nearly empty Blackmoor timeline.

Really, I’m not trying to say that no one should have Robert 1st as the founder of the Great Empire in their games if that’s the way you like it, – all I’m trying to point out is that there is another way of looking at it that is better grounded in and more fundamental to the texts and introduces a new bit of potentially interesting geography (kingdom of Geneva).

My point was that I think the criticism of Ross' work is exaggerated and that even if we dont understand all of his reasoning, that doesnt mean he doesnt have his reasons for what he writes.
-Havard

I spent every free moment I had every day for more than a month checking and double checking Ross’s work, all the source material cited, reading all the relevant new books and weblore all the published timelines I had access to. Etc, I’ve put less effort into grad school term papers and far, far, more time than I should have spent on this. Even so I’ve attempted to maintain a balance between unbridled passion and fairness to alternative views. At times passion may have had an edge, but if I’ve exaggerated it isn’t by much. I know you think so Havard, but I’d invite you to look closer – show me what is exaggerated.

I have meant to be relatively kind to Ross, because I respect the effort he went to, but frankly, I get the sense that nobody has checked Ross work - Not closely or line by line as I did. It is, after all tedious work, but not something I’m unaccustomed to - it is literally my business to research and analyze ethnohistoric data, and I’ll say this plainly, I’m very certain I’m neither confused or lacking of understand of Ross’ reasoning. There’s no secret curtain of information. I know for example, that he arbitrarily and regardless of the source material changed his start date from 1000 to 1025 to 1035 to make things fit as he thought they should. To me, those kinds of hidden monkeyshines, accidental or not, don’t get a free pass in a work that purports to be “accurate”.

Honestly though if you really think any particular reference is wrong, please check the work, cite a reference or offer a more logical bit of reasoning or compelling narrative and we can talk about it. It is what I was hoping would happen when I posted it. The kind of back and forth that leads to polished text. I was hoping to spark all kinds of debate and commentary from you guys ‘cause this is fun stuff. Instead it’s like Ross timeline is being treated as textus receptus or carved in stone or something.

[Rafael]

*Ding ding ding ding*

Every contestant, back into his corner.


Aldy,

The thing is, your theory IS logical, and sound, and etc. BUT the simple fact is, it's not true.

We have a couple of written and vocal statements that say otherwise.

The point is, frankly, Mr Gygax was one of the kind that eternally strove to diminish the contributions of virtually anbody else,
and so much of the info is simply hidden, blurred, or virtually impossible to obtain, because some people might not tell you the truth - as idiotic as it is.

Now, as to Ross' compilation of notes, the thing is simply, IT WORKS.
For a long time, it was the only resource available, and it was received by the gaming community as an authority,
to the point where the Zeitgeist Games crew moronically copied and pasted it into their books because they were too lazy to check the resources for themselves. (Be aware that this supposedly means Mr Arneson checked and greenlit it.)

ALSO, and most importantly, I think there is, in general, no definitive answer to events that had no impact on the in-game reality whatsoever. Would, for example, the Temple of the Id being founded a thousand years ago instead of five hundred, impact the actual gaming experience in any noticeable way? - I don't think so.

So, what are we talking about here, again?

Purely fluff info that really can be easily adapted.

If there is anything I would criticise about this thread, it is the false notion that an ongoing game where towns are named after whisky bottles, NPCs after friends and buddies, and dungeons after garden decoration, has anything but a fixed frame and is not subject to endless spontaneous alterations.

Remember, a faithful fictionalized version of the actual real game was never done!


So, PEACE, everybody! IT'S JUST A GAME...

[aldarron]

You are a wise man Rafe, but I'm a stubborn old cuss....

As you point out, it is all irrelevant background fluff, mostly.

Only way the early timeline matters really is in choosing a "present" for the campaign. My own is set during the height of the Id cult and reign of the Bloody Duke.

True about the Gygax situation. One thing struck me the other day as I was reading some of his webposts where people were crediting him with all kinds of things, I've never seen him say "Oh that was Dave Arnesons idea (or Rob Kuntz or Law Schick or anybody)".

[Rafael]

Only way the early timeline matters really is in choosing a "present" for the campaign. My own is set during the height of the Id cult and reign of the Bloody Duke.

Given that I venture into similar fields lately with the LFC - campaign journals much?

True about the Gygax situation. One thing struck me the other day as I was reading some of his webposts where people were crediting him with all kinds of things, I've never seen him say "Oh that was Dave Arnesons idea (or Rob Kuntz or Law Schick or anybody)".

Yepp. It's sad, but that was his big fallacy - he wouldn't share the glory.

Made him a pop culture icon, but people will always be aware that, in the end, he was just a glorified editor.

[aldarron]

Only way the early timeline matters really is in choosing a "present" for the campaign. My own is set during the height of the Id cult and reign of the Bloody Duke.

Given that I venture into similar fields lately with the LFC - campaign journals much?

Never developed the habit. But now that you mention it, it might be worth the effort. Thing is, I've usually found most game reports to be eye glazingly dull reads, like reading the play by play for a minor league team you've never heard of. I can see where it would potentially be more interesting, at least for my players, if I started writing up the games...

Yeah, will make the effort.