When-ing the comeback inn

[aldarron]

I dunno if you guys have long since scrutinized this, but I'm seeing puzzling things about the descriptions of the "great rain of fire" and the interior of the comeback inn as described in DA1.

Maybe, some of what I'm seeing is descrepencies between Dave's original ideas and later developments at TSR? I would guess that most of the layout and interior description of the inn comes from Daves notes. It seems likely he would have written that up.

Here's the thing; we are told flately that the cataclysm happened 1000 years after Uther becomes king, and house Andahar is ended in it.

Thus, the inn should reflect the year 2014, more or less, right?

Yet, when we read the room descriptions, everything points to a time period in, or not too long after, Uther's rule. Certainly there is nothing to indicate 1000 years of history had passed. No tributes to later emperors or heroes, new names, non Uther era coins etc.

There is also a few references to the cataclysm resulting from Uthers patronage of techno gadgetry. Seems odd that something happening 1000 years in the future is blamed on Uther.

In the last paragraph of page 2, "one thousand years before the catyclism" Blackmoor is very strangely referred to as Thonia's "least and newest province", hinting that either the author was unaware of Blackmoor's long history or that the cataclism was around the time of Uther. The next couple sentences seem to support the thousand years after Uther date by refering to a "petty baron" who seems to be Uther, but maybe thay could have been added later to "correct" the cataclism date? Its that "newest and least province" that seems confusing here. Is Ritchie pading and reworking something Arneson wrote to change his timeline?

Particularly curious in light of the previous paragraph on page 2. It says "For a thousand years, first as a half forgotton province, then as an independant kingdom, then as a keystone of a faltering empire..."
Again here Blackmoor is either a very new province, or Ritchie/TSR is confusing Arneson's start date for the thousand year history of Blackmoor. Arneson gives "a thousand years" for Blackmoor and ritchie thinks its a thousand years from the time of the first fantasy campaign and Uther, rather than a thousand years before Uther. I'm beginning to think that's exactly what happened.

Also note the "Faltering Empire" bit. Apparently Uther or an heir conquers and subjugates Thonia.

One thing that makes this question of the dating of the rain of fire interesting is that on page 20 we are given a list of the 9 last Thonian emperors, going back 100 years. The list is very curios because it is extremely detailed, giving the name of the Emporer and length of the reign. There's no good reason for Ritchie to have made up such a list. Except for the last emperor, the details have no bearing whatever on this module or any of the later stuff. Could this be Arnesons list? A list meant to be contemporary with Uther's time and not 1000 years later?

[Havard]

I dunno if you guys have long since scrutinized this, but I'm seeing puzzling things about the descriptions of the "great rain of fire" and the interior of the comeback inn as described in DA1.

Maybe, some of what I'm seeing is descrepencies between Dave's original ideas and later developments at TSR? I would guess that most of the layout and interior description of the inn comes from Daves notes. It seems likely he would have written that up.

Here's the thing; we are told flately that the cataclysm happened 1000 years after Uther becomes king, and house Andahar is ended in it.

Thus, the inn should reflect the year 2014, more or less, right?

Yet, when we read the room descriptions, everything points to a time period in, or not too long after, Uther's rule. Certainly there is nothing to indicate 1000 years of history had passed. No tributes to later emperors or heroes, new names, non Uther era coins etc.

Not necessarily. The Comeback Inn is a magical place. The dressing of the rooms could be changing to prepare the adventurers for their destiny.

There is also a few references to the cataclysm resulting from Uthers patronage of techno gadgetry. Seems odd that something happening 1000 years in the future is blamed on Uther.

Uther's reign is a key point in history. His expeditions to the Valley of the Ancients lead to dramatic breakthroughs in technological development, ultimately leading to the doom of the entire civlization.

In the last paragraph of page 2, "one thousand years before the catyclism" Blackmoor is very strangely referred to as Thonia's "least and newest province", hinting that either the author was unaware of Blackmoor's long history or that the cataclism was around the time of Uther. The next couple sentences seem to support the thousand years after Uther date by refering to a "petty baron" who seems to be Uther, but maybe thay could have been added later to "correct" the cataclism date? Its that "newest and least province" that seems confusing here. Is Ritchie pading and reworking something Arneson wrote to change his timeline?

Yeah, it doesnt seem to be quite consistent here. OTOH, while Blackmoor may have been founded during the reign of King Robert, it is possible that the Northern Marches were not recognized as a province until much later.

Particularly curious in light of the previous paragraph on page 2. It says "For a thousand years, first as a half forgotton province, then as an independant kingdom, then as a keystone of a faltering empire..."
Again here Blackmoor is either a very new province, or Ritchie/TSR is confusing Arneson's start date for the thousand year history of Blackmoor. Arneson gives "a thousand years" for Blackmoor and ritchie thinks its a thousand years from the time of the first fantasy campaign and Uther, rather than a thousand years before Uther. I'm beginning to think that's exactly what happened.

I see little evidence for this, especially since we are specifically told the opposite.

Also note the "Faltering Empire" bit. Apparently Uther or an heir conquers and subjugates Thonia.

Yep. Thonia is destined to be conquered by Blackmoor.

One thing that makes this question of the dating of the rain of fire interesting is that on page 20 we are given a list of the 9 last Thonian emperors, going back 100 years. The list is very curios because it is extremely detailed, giving the name of the Emporer and length of the reign. There's no good reason for Ritchie to have made up such a list. Except for the last emperor, the details have no bearing whatever on this module or any of the later stuff. Could this be Arnesons list? A list meant to be contemporary with Uther's time and not 1000 years later?

Hard to say if the names were Arneson's but this theory seems highly speculative to me.


-Havard

[aldarron]

I dunno if you guys have long since scrutinized this, but I'm seeing puzzling things about the descriptions of the "great rain of fire" and the interior of the comeback inn as described in DA1.

Maybe, some of what I'm seeing is descrepencies between Dave's original ideas and later developments at TSR? I would guess that most of the layout and interior description of the inn comes from Daves notes. It seems likely he would have written that up.

Here's the thing; we are told flately that the cataclysm happened 1000 years after Uther becomes king, and house Andahar is ended in it.

Thus, the inn should reflect the year 2014, more or less, right?

Yet, when we read the room descriptions, everything points to a time period in, or not too long after, Uther's rule. Certainly there is nothing to indicate 1000 years of history had passed. No tributes to later emperors or heroes, new names, non Uther era coins etc.

Not necessarily. The Comeback Inn is a magical place. The dressing of the rooms could be changing to prepare the adventurers for their destiny.

That's definetly a reasonable explanation, but I don't get the sense that that is what was intended when it was written. Am I missing something?

Uther's reign is a key point in history. His expeditions to the Valley of the Ancients lead to dramatic breakthroughs in technological development, ultimately leading to the doom of the entire civlization.

okeydoke.

Hard to say if the names were Arneson's but this theory seems highly speculative to me.


-Havard

Yeah, definetly speculative. I read through DA1 specifically looking for dateing material and kept seeing things that suggested first, a 1000 year time period for Blackmoor, and second an end to Blackmoor seemingly at time when Uther's influence was still strong.

The puzzling details of the Inn and the odd bit about newest province made me wonder if maybe Arneson had meant the catyclism to occur much earlier, hence the list of emperors would be earlier, but if not, then that would apparently be a list of Andahars, right?

[Havard]

The puzzling details of the Inn and the odd bit about newest province made me wonder if maybe Arneson had meant the catyclism to occur much earlier, hence the list of emperors would be earlier, but if not, then that would apparently be a list of Andahars, right?

To be honest, I don't think the Cataclysm had anything to do with Arneson. The Great Rain of Fire (GRoF) was a construction invented by Dave Ritchie (maybe with Bruce Heard) to link Blackmoor and the Known World. Ritchie originally envisioned the Thonian Empire to be a predecessor to Thyatis, but this was later changed, with the GRoF being pushed even farther back in time, making the FFC events occur more than 4000 years before the Known World.

-Havard

[aldarron]

The puzzling details of the Inn and the odd bit about newest province made me wonder if maybe Arneson had meant the catyclism to occur much earlier, hence the list of emperors would be earlier, but if not, then that would apparently be a list of Andahars, right?

To be honest, I don't think the Cataclysm had anything to do with Arneson. The Great Rain of Fire (GRoF) was a construction invented by Dave Ritchie (maybe with Bruce Heard) to link Blackmoor and the Known World. Ritchie originally envisioned the Thonian Empire to be a predecessor to Thyatis, but this was later changed, with the GRoF being pushed even farther back in time, making the FFC events occur more than 4000 years before the Known World.

-Havard

D'oh! That makes very good sense. Not sure why I was even thinking Arneson would have imgained his world would end in a GRoF regardless of the timeline. That does still make that list of emperors interesting if they came from Arneson and were meant for an earlier time...

[aldarron]

...while Blackmoor may have been founded during the reign of King Robert, it is possible that the Northern Marches were not recognized as a province until much later.

-Havard

Havard you may be on to something here. I'm not seeing any published statement that Robert the 1st was from the Great Kingdom/Thonia in particular and n hints whatsoever that he founded it. FFC just says "king of all Geneva". Even the timelines seem to just indicate sometime between 0-500.

[Havard]

...while Blackmoor may have been founded during the reign of King Robert, it is possible that the Northern Marches were not recognized as a province until much later.

-Havard

Havard you may be on to something here. I'm not seeing any published statement that Robert the 1st was from the Great Kingdom/Thonia in particular and n hints whatsoever that he founded it. FFC just says "king of all Geneva". Even the timelines seem to just indicate sometime between 0-500.

Geneva is a reference to the old C&C Society Map. Rob Kuntz was based on Geneva and ruled the Great Kingdom. He was "king" of the C&C Society. There are some further references to this in the Domesday Book #13, of which excerpts are available on the acaeum. Dave recognized King Robert as founder of the Kingdom as a nod to his friend Rob Kuntz. The name Thonia was introduced in DA1 to avoid references to RW locations. Also the Great Kingdom could not be used since that had been adopted for Greyhawk (and is also a bit generic if you ask me). King Robert founded the Thonian Empire/Great Kingdom and "within a few years" he also founded Blackmoor.

OTOH, founding Blackmoor does not necessarily mean that the Northern Marches are immediately recognized as an imperial province.

-Havard

[aldarron]

Geneva is a reference to the old C&C Society Map. Rob Kuntz was based on Geneva and ruled the Great Kingdom. He was "king" of the C&C Society. There are some further references to this in the Domesday Book #13, of which excerpts are available on the acaeum. Dave recognized King Robert as founder of the Kingdom as a nod to his friend Rob Kuntz...

King Robert founded the Thonian Empire/Great Kingdom ...
-Havard

Thanks for the reference Havard, I had forgotton there was that much info from DB #13 on the Acaeum.

The RW background is meta game stuff that I'd prefer not to draw too much from. What I'm looking at is "in game", Robert is King of "all Geneva" and I think you mentioned a reference to "Empire of Geneva" in some materials from Mr. Meyer. In a meta sense "because we know" we associate Robert I with Rob Kuntz and the C&C society with the "Great Kingdom" so Robert I gets thought of by us as high potentate and fouder of the Thonian empire.

But, in an "in game" sense I don't see anything suggesting Geneva - however vague and meaningless it was, was meant to be the Great Kingdom, in whole or in part, or that Robert I had anything to do with the Great Kingdom. The two are neve3r linked except in a meta sense, and that might just be an assumption on our part. Maybe there's some statement in an interview somewhere I've missed?

[Havard]

This quote from Rob Kuntz will be relevant to this discussion:

First I want to say that it is very refreshing to see you so actively involved at digging for the actual facts, and thus truth, of the matter(s), Havard. Rather than inuring to pure speculation and misinformation which I oftentimes see on many blogs and fora, you take the valued route of the true researcher and should be commended for doing so. Secondly it is something of worth. I believe that many forget how young this industry actually is, and perhaps with the passing back-to-back of EGG and David this has now re-rooted a growing interest in its salient parts, not just in identifying its "Play" parts, which is only a small piece of that whole, but in examining and really understanding its roots and where those bear from, which can lead those of invested concern to completely appreciate what has been achieved and what these holistic parts will continue to achieve. My memoirs and essays will cover a good section of that matter, and in between I will offer what I can.

Now to your questions.

The Castle & Crusade Society's map as drawn by EGG, and as published in Domesday Book #6 (1971), was not meant as a game campaign/game map but as a figurative representation of the holdings accorded to the Society's members (and this is where, for example, EGG's C&C moniker 'Earl of Walworth' springs from, which is of course a direct reference to Walworth County, Wisconsin whereat my home town of Lake Geneva is located). I reiterate that for the express purpose of what is to follow. It is certain that David incorporated the idea of this at some point into Blackmoor (again 1971-1972), whether stated or not, as he references it in FFC. Thus Dave was the first to actually expand upon its original intent in that manner; and when EGG drew the colored and expanded version of it for the area representing the environs of the Greyhawk home campaign (1973), this incorporated the name "Blackmoor". At that point my 'campaign' was already one (or merged) with that whole and as noted elsewhere either in print, on the net or at my blog. Further, when the Folio version of WoG was published, the idea of incorporating parts of other campaigns was already well defined, so that EGG envisioned Len Lakofka's campaign (thus the namesake, though as Len has noted, its location was misplaced due to Darlene's finished WoG map design) and even, much later, Frank Mentzer's Aquaria as fitting into the whole. At one point I believe there was even mention of Jim Ward's "Dragonkind" following a similar path. We also have 'Perrunland' for Jeff Perren, etc.; and I will even note here that the history of these names is not completely researched and I have found at least two so stated from those proposing such correlations which are incorrect or lack pertinent primary matter as presented.

What we have is just that. No more, unless the Minneapolis gamers were in turn forwarding their own realms or campaigns based upon it. This was a tacit thing then, incorporating maps and such, and has only taken upon a secondary significance as the history of the evolution of the game is researched. But getting the facts straight is always important for matters pertaining to good scholarship.

As for participation of gamers fromto LG/Minneapolis. We have Mike Mornard, Dave Arneson, David Sutherland (though he played in MAR Barker's original Tekumel campaign),
Mike Carr (who may have played while visiting and/or/employed by TSR, I have no knowledge of Mike playing in Greyhawk Castle under EGG, though this could have happened as Gary and I did not always maintain direct comms when and if a game DM'ed by himself or I took place), and of course David Meggary, who follows a similar pattern as Mike Carr did. That doesn't exclude the possibility. It is more than possible as we were always entertaining new adventures and hosts of people arriving at a drop of the hat mention; and that these may have occurred without my knowledge is also possible.

I am glad you continue to take interest in such things, Havard. I am sure my products, which include historical matter, as well as several books of upcoming essays and related research will be of interest.

Happy Gaming!

RJK

_________________
"How can we create the literature of the strange if we stay in well-mapped lands?"--Orson Scott Card, How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy.

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source: http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... &start=735

-Havard