Blackmoor Timeline Project

[aldarron]

Ugh. I thought I'd take a stab at mergining some of the ideas regarding the Wizards Cabal and so forth with the timelines out there, particularly Mr. Ross outstanding work. Figured it would take me a few hours, since its clear Dustin et. al. used Ross’s timeline when they wrote TWC timeline. Ha! It's turned into a major project. And is NO WHERE NEAR completion particularly with references. But I figured its a good time for feedback/hey that can't be right kind of comments.

Basically I'm working on the assumption that the TWC history is propaganda, but broadly correct, except about the date of the Mage Wars - "scribal error" as we have discussed.

I'm also adding in info not available when Mr. Ross did his, and the focus is on an FFC style Blackmoor. So I tried to peg campagn years to real years where I had the info.

Also, I think Ross is wrong in one key interpretation. In the "Blackmoor Castles History" section the first paragraph describes periodic barbarian invasions that have been occurring since before the time of Robert the Ist. One such is called the “Great Benn Hassock invasion during Pissaic’s time. The second paragraph describes a later invasion in which “barbarians” are let into the castle in an act of treachery by the newly appointed Baron “the weasel”. Treachery accomplished the Weasel flees to “the Land of the Benn Hassocks”. Taken together, it seems almost certain that the Ben Hassocks and the Barbarians are one and the same. Perhaps the Benn Hassocks are the leading tribe.

What trips Ross up is the phrase "second coot invasion, some 40 years ago", used to describe this invasion. Ross dismisses this date as impossible for the coot invasion, and everybody agrees.

The problem is that he just assumes it’s the date that’s in error. However, “some 40 years ago” can hardly be a typo, but “Coot” on the other hand, could very well be the mistake. I believe it makes more sense in context to assume Arneson meant to say Second Great Benn Hassock invasion and that it’s the “coot” bit that’s wrong, not the 40 years ago. In fact its easy to see why the slip up occurs. In the Ben Hassock incident, The Weasel allows a 10 “Barbarian” delegation into the castle who then execute a surprise attack in the Black Hall. A few paragraphs later we are told how The Weasel turns traitor to the Egg , in what must be the First (not Second) invasion. He meets with a single representative of the Egg of Coot in the library who later kills all the servants the Weasel sends there. I realize these two different stories once could have been the same thing in Dave’s mind and he might have seen the Ben Hassocks as servants of the Egg, but, going by the text, it makes more sense to keep them separate incidents in separate invasions. That changes a number of things in Ross’s version, and makes more sense of some others I think.

The other odd thing that Ross does regarding the "50 years ago" and "some 40 years" that appear in the section mentioned above is that he measures them from the end date of the DA series - 1025, or later. Ra-All first builds his hall "50 Years ago" and Weasels treachery is "some 40 years ago". Ross dates the founding of the hall at 985, placing the "present" in 1035 but he adds the cryptic note that 40 years ago is ten years before the first Coot invasion, placing the present in 1025!

Ugh again.

The FFC was written in 1976, but has material that dates to 1971. The "present" when the FFC was written was therefor circa 1000 on the Blackmoor calender. I went with 1001 minus 50.

- Anyway, here goes: (Italics indicate non Canon material)

edit: TIMELINE REVISED AND REPOSTED BELOW.

[Havard]

Ugh. I thought I'd take a stab at mergining some of the ideas regarding the Wizards Cabal and so forth with the timelines out there, particularly Mr. Ross outstanding work. Figured it would take me a few hours, since its clear Dustin et. al. used Ross’s timeline when they wrote TWC timeline. Ha! It's turned into a major project. And is NO WHERE NEAR completion particularly with references. But I figured its a good time for feedback/hey that can't be right kind of comments.

Impressive!
David Ross' work is indeed outstanding. If you compare Ross' timeline with the one in the D20 sourcebook, you will see that even Ross' typos are carried over...

Basically I'm working on the assumption that the TWC history is propaganda, but broadly correct, except about the date of the Mage Wars - "scribal error" as we have discussed.

I like the propaganda approach, but I disagree with moving the timeline. The TWC authors had Ross' timeline available when they wrote their book, and it is clear that it was a concious decision to place these events where they were placed.

I'm also adding in info not available when Mr. Ross did his, and the focus is on an FFC style Blackmoor. So I tried to peg campagn years to real years where I had the info.

Also, I think Ross is wrong in one key interpretation. In the "Blackmoor Castles History" section the first paragraph describes periodic barbarian invasions that have been occurring since before the time of Robert the Ist. One such is called the “Great Benn Hassock invasion during Pissaic’s time. The second paragraph describes a later invasion in which “barbarians” are let into the castle in an act of treachery by the newly appointed Baron “the weasel”. Treachery accomplished the Weasel flees to “the Land of the Benn Hassocks”. Taken together, it seems almost certain that the Ben Hassocks and the Barbarians are one and the same. Perhaps the Benn Hassocks are the leading tribe.

Makes sense. Ross' replaces Ben Hassock with Barbarian on the basis that Ben Hassock is a pun. I agree with this decision. I equal them with a tribe of Peshwah myself, though I considered using the Afridhi.

What trips Ross up is the phrase "second coot invasion, some 40 years ago", used to describe this invasion. Ross dismisses this date as impossible for the coot invasion, and everybody agrees.

The problem is that he just assumes it’s the date that’s in error. However, “some 40 years ago” can hardly be a typo, but “Coot” on the other hand, could very well be the mistake. I believe it makes more sense in context to assume Arneson meant to say Second Great Benn Hassock invasion and that it’s the “coot” bit that’s wrong, not the 40 years ago. In fact its easy to see why the slip up occurs. In the Ben Hassock incident, The Weasel allows a 10 “Barbarian” delegation into the castle who then execute a surprise attack in the Black Hall. A few paragraphs later we are told how The Weasel turns traitor to the Egg , in what must be the First (not Second) invasion. He meets with a single representative of the Egg of Coot in the library who later kills all the servants the Weasel sends there. I realize these two different stories once could have been the same thing in Dave’s mind and he might have seen the Ben Hassocks as servants of the Egg, but, going by the text, it makes more sense to keep them separate incidents in separate invasions. That changes a number of things in Ross’s version, and makes more sense of some others I think.

The other odd thing that Ross does regarding the "50 years ago" and "some 40 years" that appear in the section mentioned above is that he measures them from the end date of the DA series - 1025, or later. Ra-All first builds his hall "50 Years ago" and Weasels treachery is "some 40 years ago". Ross dates the founding of the hall at 985, placing the "present" in 1035 but he adds the cryptic note that 40 years ago is ten years before the first Coot invasion, placing the present in 1025!

Ugh again.

The FFC was written in 1976, but has material that dates to 1971. The "present" when the FFC was written was therefor circa 1000 on the Blackmoor calender. I went with 1001 minus 50.

I will need to look into this later, but I agree that the FFC present is probably around the year 1000.


[quote] - Anyway, here goes:

[aldarron]

This is surprisingly fun.

Impressive!
David Ross' work is indeed outstanding. If you compare Ross' timeline with the one in the D20 sourcebook, you will see that even Ross' typos are carried over... .

I really need to buy one of those.

... Ross' replaces Ben Hassock with Barbarian on the basis that Ben Hassock is a pun. I agree with this decision. I equal them with a tribe of Peshwah myself, though I considered using the Afridhi.

I've been equating them with the Nomads of Ten (and the Karsh) which are probably desert Peshwah... Southern Ten I see as eastern karsh. Too early for the Afridhi I think.

I keep this at a later date in accordance with the D20 line. I also think the Cabal would have big problems imposing on the elves at this early point, since they were much stronger before the Id incident and the later rise of the Egg. Even today I think the Cabal would have problems challenging the elves.

Yeah, that 800 year gap is just too big for me to swallow no matter how it's spun, but I think putting the mage wars at 815 won't alter the subsequent timeline.

As a side note, if you do put the influx of wizards circa 800, there should be some trigger events and you'll have to figure out who the emporer is who "issues the call" for settlers and arcanists because it can't possibly be Robert I.

I have the coven from early on, but the Peaks be founded after 500.

I'm not sure the source of my thinking (heh, could have been you!) but I have the Red Coven formed by a group of Rogue wizards who found Starport as thier remote base to take advantage of the diamonds and the privacy. I don't see them preexisting somewhere else first. The date is a wild guess, but I wanted the Duchy of the peaks to exist in my age of Id campaign. Maybe instead it should just be the city state of Starport - not quite a "duchy" yet?

So you are not going with Pissaic=Kargas as I suggested?

Well, there's the dating issue. I picture Kargas as a semi legendary figure from a milenia ago. But even using the TWC dates, I'm hesitant to merge two named figures, particularly when there are so many gaps and unnamed persons. Its okay, but I'd rather see them as seperate people.

Should read Bakula. Ross uses Bakura, but in Garbage Pits, it is spelled with an "l".

Right, I wondered where that r came from. I wonder if Bakula was one of the later players or perhaps Dave himself.

1013 - Afridhi conquer Ten. Ran of Ah Foo commits suicide. Bakula, declares Uther his heir and dies shortly thereafter. Uther Proclaimed King and Co-regent. (TWC)

This doesnt quite make sense. First of all, there are the references to Uther's father who might play a role here, or is he Bakula? Secondly, Uther would not use the tilte King until his break away from The Great Kingdom/Thonian Empire.
-Havard

Uther's parentage is still a mystery to me, but I recall somewhere a suggestion was made that he had some Elvish blood - that's why I tied him to Menander and Bakula.

The King title stems from Ra-All being declared "king" in vestfold in the FFC and the reference to Svenson being "a long time pal of the king". I kinda reasoned that the king title was ceremonial and meant "king of humans in Blackmoor" just as Menander is "king" of the elves, Uberstar king of the dwarves etc. Thus Ra-all could be king and earl all at once. Since Ross places Bakula as the next Earl in Vestfold, I figured the title would continue, along with Co-Concilor in 996 and Co-regent in 997.

I'm unsure of when Bakula dies, or when Menander dies, or when Uther declares himself king, or if there is a direct relationship between any of those, so input here is humbly requested. It seems sensible to have Uther as Bakulas heir, but I don't know about that either. There may be a different difference in Uther's title too in that he seems to me to be dissolving the Co regency and the earldom and declaring himself king of all Blackmoor.

[aldarron]

Regarding the crash of the Beagle date, I just guessded that 25 years seemed about right. Stephen had to build the temple and environs and that had to have taken a year or two or more. It seems like it wasn't a "recent" event so a period of 20 - 25 years seemed approximately right. Could be more or less easily enough. Interestingly, if the crash was 30 years prior it would correspond to the first siteing of the Egg of Coot - an idea proposed some time ago by one LordTarrant here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=243

[aldarron]

Yeah, that 800 year gap is just too big for me to swallow no matter how it's spun, but I think putting the mage wars at 815 won't alter the subsequent timeline.

As a side note, if you do put the influx of wizards circa 800, there should be some trigger events and you'll have to figure out who the emporer is who "issues the call" for settlers and arcanists because it can't possibly be Robert I.

Never say never. After making this post viewtopic.php?f=22&t=782 It dawned on me that there could be a perfectly good reason why the mage wars didn't happen until the 800's. If we go with the hints that superberries, which only grow in Blackmoor's magical soil really are a key item for great Magic, then it's perfectly reasonable that any wizard worth thier salt would want thier private garden of the things and fueds could and would erupt over the them.

Then the simple question is who first figured out that superberries could be distilled and or otherwise processed for use in magic and when did that happen.

Kargas D. seems a likely candidate.

If Kargas discovers the use and distillation processes for superberries in the late 700's, then it makes perfect sense that the discovery would lead to a mass influx of wizards seeking the "wealth" offered by the berries. It's also concievable that the Empire would call for internal immigrants to help keep out persons with competing loyalties.

This may be a better solution than changing the date of the Mage Wars...

[Rafael]

I would comment in length, but then again, I already wrote my personal (almost) definite BM timeline.
You might want to check it out for some of the differences between your and my approach.

[aldarron]

Following on some of the comments, I'm deleting the timeline above (post was too long anyhow) and posting a revision here. Italics represent non canon derived material.

Blackmoor’s native population includes elves, dwarves, ents, orcs and hobbits. (FFC, DA1:4)

The kingdom of the Elves stretches across the North, from the foothills of the Goblins Kush in the west to the Barbarian hills of Rhun in the east. (PG:197)

- 800 Construction of the great tower of shining blue glass in the Valley of the ancients (4eTFC:192, true date unknown)

- 800 A people calling themselves the Picts begin settling within the borders of the Elven Kingdom. The Picts are a freshwater based culture who build their settlements on islands within the rivers and swamps. (FFC 80: 86, Havard- Arneson letter) Initially, the Picts rely on bronze technologies, are highly superstitious and follow the leadership of religious leaders called wokan. (DoCBM:7 – The history of Callas Anethenitos. the earlier parts of which are considered largely apocryphal by most authorities)

-126 Founding of a trading post at Maus. (4eTFC:167, date approximate)

[Havard]

1 - Conquest and settlement by Robert I, King of all Geneva, Emperor of the Great Empire.

any particular reason why you have the year 1 here? Ross uses the year 3 IIRC, though the exact reference is "within a few years.." (after founding the kingdom).

I tend to tone down the importance of Geneva as it is a real world reference, since the original C&C map was based on North America. Similarly, I try to avoid references to the players themselves, with a few exceptions:

"994 (1970 AD) - Baron Weasel plots with forces of Coot. Orders expedition into Blackmoor dungeon. Man at Arms Svenson is sole survivor. He delivers the magic sword “Red” to the Baron. (from G. Svenson story and sword description in FFC). Creation of Marfeldt the Barabarian in a Laboratory in Rhun. (TWC/FFC)"

I don't think Weasel is the Baron's name. Rather he is referred to as "The Weasel", probably due to his sneaky schemes. The sword is called Maroon, rather than red. Marfeldt was probably not created in Rhun. IIRC, he is described as a stranger when he first arrived there, but I might be misremembering.

996 (1972) - Cabal decides a three person council is the fastest way to coordinate a martial defense for the next Coot invasion. Svenson builds first stronghold. Mello builds his house. Willem of the Heath picks up armor and weaponry from 12th level of Blackmoor Dungeon, becomes Blue Rider. Battle against two towers of wizardry, giant vultures in “six hills” of Wolf’s Head Pass, magical darkness, probably undead. Svenny, Bishop Carr, Blue Rider, and Mello build Freehold to guard said Pass. Pete becomes Wizard of the Wood. (Ross)

The problem here is that you have Svenson (Svenny?), Mello, the Blue Rider etc seemingly working for the Cabal. I think this is still giving the Cabal too much credit for the effort of others.

Svenny builds “a city, called Tonisborg, complete with a dungeon and a network of catacombs.”(Odd74, Svenson)

I wonder if this should be Svenny, or rather Greg Svenson the player. OTOH, it could be interesting if Tonisborg is built as a Blackmoorian colony, maybe south of Bartertown, on the northern coast of the Black Sea.

-Havard

[aldarron]

1 - Conquest and settlement by Robert I, King of all Geneva, Emperor of the Great Empire.

any particular reason why you have the year 1 here? Ross uses the year 3 IIRC, though the exact reference is "within a few years.." (after founding the kingdom).

Blackmoor Centricism I just figured the timeline started with the founding of Blackmoor, not the founding of the Great Empire. Maybe I should put it at year 3.

"994 (1970 AD) - Baron Weasel plots with forces of Coot. Orders expedition into Blackmoor dungeon. Man at Arms Svenson is sole survivor. He delivers the magic sword “Red” to the Baron. (from G. Svenson story and sword description in FFC). Creation of Marfeldt the Barabarian in a Laboratory in Rhun. (TWC/FFC)"

I don't think Weasel is the Baron's name. Rather he is referred to as "The Weasel", probably due to his sneaky schemes. The sword is called Maroon, rather than red. Marfeldt was probably not created in Rhun. IIRC, he is described as a stranger when he first arrived there, but I might be misremembering.

Maroon? Was that from Greg? "Red" is the sword listed in the FFC as "Last owner Wesely". Wesely "the Weasel" almost certainly had to be the Baron in question because the FFC is clear that he was the baron prior to Fant - unless we have a missing baron. Alvarez would have been a candidate except TWC has him die in 985. No matter how you look at it, Ross had the dating of Ra-All wrong so he had long since taken up residence in Vestfold. The Weasel is the only candidate. Since Red was his magic sword and he got a magic sword from Svenny I assumed they were one and the same.

Marfeldt is a stranger at the capital of Rhun but I assumed the wizard was from the country somewhere. Your right though I should take that out since we don't know.

996 (1972) - Cabal decides a three person council is the fastest way to coordinate a martial defense for the next Coot invasion. Svenson builds first stronghold. Mello builds his house. Willem of the Heath picks up armor and weaponry from 12th level of Blackmoor Dungeon, becomes Blue Rider. Battle against two towers of wizardry, giant vultures in “six hills” of Wolf’s Head Pass, magical darkness, probably undead. Svenny, Bishop Carr, Blue Rider, and Mello build Freehold to guard said Pass. Pete becomes Wizard of the Wood. (Ross)

The problem here is that you have Svenson (Svenny?), Mello, the Blue Rider etc seemingly working for the Cabal. I think this is still giving the Cabal too much credit for the effort of others.

Well, I see them being loyal to the authorities, who are under the thumb of the Cabal, so kind of. I don't see it as giving the Cabal credit per se, but perhaps it could be reworded.

Svenny builds “a city, called Tonisborg, complete with a dungeon and a network of catacombs.”(Odd74, Svenson)

I wonder if this should be Svenny, or rather Greg Svenson the player. OTOH, it could be interesting if Tonisborg is built as a Blackmoorian colony, maybe south of Bartertown, on the northern coast of the Black Sea.

-Havard

Good point, we'll have to ask Greg.

[Rafael]

Dunno, Aldy, have you even cared to look into the LFC timeline?

The thing is, you will eventually end up with something like the one I did two years ago already,
just that it seems you need to rethink every single step I already did by then. :wink:

Of course, I made some game-related changes, but they were small compared to the overall work I put into pillaging all BM canon.

(LFC Events > LFC member ideas > DA Series > FFC > Havard's investigations outside of the LFC > Forum stuff > BM d20 series.)

">" meaning "more important than", in this case.