The NWFP Connection

[Havard]

I'd argue the opposite. Havard knows more than anybody regarding the overall corpus of Blackmoor, but there is indeed disagreement on Arnesons role on different parts and the DA series being one of them. David Ritchie was the lead writer there and his role was to intergrate Blackmoor into the TSR line as a standard TSR Mystara product. He consulted with Arneson (a little less on each one, seemingly) and worked from his notes, but it was ultimatly TSR who dictated the nature of the line and Ritchie who crafted it. The ZGG line, on the other hand, while largely an invention of the other writers, was under Daves control, at least to the extent that he hadan executive influence and veto power he lacked earlier and the writers were attempting to at least be consistent with Dave's vision.

I think my previous statement came off a bit more critical towards the ZGG line than intended. I agree with your assessment on that line.

I do however disagree with your description of Ritchie's role. It is important to remember that there was no Mystara at this time, and the Known World little more than the map in the Expert Set.

While each DA module includes a history section and a chapter about how the PCs can get from the Known World, via Time Travel to Blackmoor, the impact of this connection on the DA modules pretty much ends here. The descriptions of Blackmoor are in no way affected by any "baggage" of the overall line.

Ritchie's true impact however, is to bring Blackmoor into what James Maliszewski might call a Silver Age*framework:

The Silver Age is a transitional age that marries a sophisticated (some might say "decadent") interpretation of Gygaxian naturalism with a growing concern for "dramatic" coherence. The Silver Age is one of "fantastic realism" and the construction of believable worlds and stories is its great concern

While the FFC is a collection of Arneson's Campaign Notes and House Rules, the DA modules present Blackmoor as a coherent setting, removing the most blatant in-jokes and allows the reader to easily get an overview of the setting, where the FFC dives straight in. Having gotten into D&D in the "Silver Age" myself, I am much more comfortable with this kind of presentation.

The DA series have a serious impact on the core products of the ZGG line, also suggesting that Ritchie came fairly close to Arneson's vision. The main thing Arneson objected to in the DA series was having the Afridhi invade Ten, as mentioned earlier.


-Havard


*I dislike Grognardia's loaded terminology, but the analysis is good.

[aldarron]

Yep, plenty of room for disagreement, but nevertheless, well said Havard (might make a good blog post) Regarding "ages" I can only echo Mathews reply on Grognardia.

Your view of the DA series could be right of course but for me its seems too radicaly different in tone and substance from the Blackmoor of FCC to see it as being what Arneson had in mind. Anyway, I would merely point out that Dave Arneson was a remarkably good natured and collegial fellow who considered gaming to be a group project. He posted on ODD74 that basically everything published should be considered canon whether he had much input to it or not, so its no surprise the zgg line builds on that.

[Rafael]

Yeah, it's worth noting that Mr Arneson apparently put way less thought into "canon" lore than most fans do.

As to Mr Arneson's real contribution to the DA series, well, he ran the campaign for 15++ years before the modules appeared. I think it's safe to say, if there was substantial impact on it from other authors, we would have known. Also, that he probably had plenty of notes.

As to the D&D ages, since I think all of us are on the same side here, and since this is ultimately our internet forum, I'll gladly go ahead and bluntly state that I think such a classification is retarded.

All this grognardism has degenerated from commemorating OOP games to windy authors trying to make a buck with demonizing their market rivals.

- No, not at all a slur against you, Aldy, I read your booklet on the FFC,
and it's the first contribution to that "oldschool renaissance" in a long while that was actually a worthwhile read and not just random crap with bad illustrations.

[Rafael]

FTR, I tend indeed to divide the "OSR" into two ages:

1.0 - The rulebooks: OSRIC, Basic Fantasy RPG, DaD, the first few adventures.

2.0 - All the other crap that five years ago would have made for a good freebie on Dragonsfoot and Canonfire. Or not even that.






U see what I did there?

[aldarron]

- No, not at all a slur against you, Aldy, I read your booklet on the FFC,
and it's the first contribution to that "oldschool renaissance 2.0" that was actually a worthwhile read and not just random crap with bad illustrations.

Aw shucks, I'm blushing. Thanks Rafe. Personally, I've come to really enjoy reading retroclones although my fisrt reaction back in the day was. Why?... Anyway I don't really think of DaD as part of that scene since the whole point is not to clone but to explore a path (a Dave Arneson path) that the game never took.

[Rafael]

Nah, you did very good there.

I would also have told you if you had done otherwise. :twisted:

The point is, that so-called OSR was, as a principle, a good idea.
However, a lot of people seem to think that name recognition and nostalgia equal quality. Which they don't.

I am pretty annoyed about it actually, because I spent money on stuff that proved to be unimaginative and poorly executed random crap; that people would even bother to publish some of it, is beyond me.

If they had been less "I need to become a published author", and more "I am gonna do something that helps the gaming community", the game would be better off than with random PDF downloads.

I mean, who still runs a blog like Havard, for example? - Just the stuff he has put out would have made for TEN sourcebooks.

[end/rant, and close of getting carried away.] :twisted:

[Havard]

Your view of the DA series could be right of course but for me its seems too radicaly different in tone and substance from the Blackmoor of FCC to see it as being what Arneson had in mind.

I think this is what would happen to any early age product revised for a "Silver Age" audience. In the DA series, Blackmoor was presented as a cohesive setting with a history, clearly presented cultures for each nation and detailed writeups of the NPCs in the region. Most in-jokes were also removed. I agree that this is a significant departure from a "Golden Age" product, but having gotten into gaming in the Silver Age myself, this is the only way I understand the term setting. Earlier books were campaign models or examples of play rather than settings in the modern sense.

Tim Kask said about OD&D that if you opened one of the original D&D booklets and had never been exposed to D&D and also did not have any background in Wargaming, there would be alot in those rulebooks that you would not understand. Similarly, I would argue that the FFC is written for an audience with a Wargaming/OD&D background. The FFC is a gold mine for a Blackmoor fan, but as an introduction to the setting for someone who is used to D&D products from the 80s or later, it will be very confusing.

Ritchie moves the timeline a few decades into the future. He then details the setting based on the premises laid out by Arneson. The Duchy of Ten, Egg of Coot, Skandaharians, Peshwa, Afridhi, Valley of the Ancients etc are all concepts from Arneson's campaign which are now presented for a Silver Age audience. The main bulk of the NPCs in the DA modules are based on PCs from Arneson's campaign.

But all the gonzo/in-joke/war gaming stuff is gone since it will be of very little use for the Silver Age gamers. Yes, it is a departure from how Blackmoor was presented in the FFC, but the departure is mainly in how it is presented and not the spirit of the setting.

Anyway, I would merely point out that Dave Arneson was a remarkably good natured and collegial fellow who considered gaming to be a group project. He posted on ODD74 that basically everything published should be considered canon whether he had much input to it or not, so its no surprise the zgg line builds on that.

At least we can agree on this:

Arneson=Awesome


-Havard

[gsvenson]

Dave Arneson worked with Dave Richie on DA1-3. His contract with TSR gave him the right to review all Blackmoor material before it was published, but DA4 was published before he was able to review. So, that was most of his problem with that module. I am also sure that he objected to the fact that the Ran of An Foo, the leader of one one of Blackmoor's major enemies, was not even mentioned in the module. All the rest of this discussion on Dave's plans for the Afridhi is just speculation. I have no idea what his future plans for the Afridhi were.

[Havard]

Dave Arneson worked with Dave Richie on DA1-3. His contract with TSR gave him the right to review all Blackmoor material before it was published, but DA4 was published before he was able to review. So, that was most of his problem with that module. I am also sure that he objected to the fact that the Ran of An Foo, the leader of one one of Blackmoor's major enemies, was not even mentioned in the module. All the rest of this discussion on Dave's plans for the Afridhi is just speculation. I have no idea what his future plans for the Afridhi were.

Thanks for your insight on this Greg! I knew Arneson was consulted on the DA modules, but didnt know exactly what that entailed.

Good point about the Ran. That makes alot of sense. The Blackmoor Fan Gazetteer also asks what happened to him. It assumes him to have died during the invasion, but it seems unlikely IMO.

Yeah, the discussion of the Afridhi were just speculation on my part. I have been rereading DA4, and I am surprised at how little we actually learn about the Duchy of Ten in the module. Most of the information given is on the Afridhi conquerors...

Havard

[aldarron]

Dave Arneson worked with Dave Richie on DA1-3. His contract with TSR gave him the right to review all Blackmoor material before it was published, but DA4 was published before he was able to review. So, that was most of his problem with that module. I am also sure that he objected to the fact that the Ran of An Foo, the leader of one one of Blackmoor's major enemies, was not even mentioned in the module. All the rest of this discussion on Dave's plans for the Afridhi is just speculation. I have no idea what his future plans for the Afridhi were.

Was just re reading this Ciro Allessandro Sacco interview with Dave http://www.thekyngdoms.com/forums/viewt ... ?f=23&t=35

He says the DA series was "heavily edited" and "For the first four modules he (Ritchie) was the editor. The work that he did was never passed back to me for my approval. Not to criticize David, but there were changes made that I did not like."

That still leaves a lot of questions regarding what Dave intended or what his ideas were for the series. For me, in some ways it doesn't matter because I'd prefer the FFC approach to Blackmoor regardless of who was behind the approach taken in later material.