Gnomes

[Havard]

The one thing I picked up of interest about Gnomes in the D20 book is that they are a wandering people, sort of like gypsies. I think I am going to take that even further and say that the Gnomes are the gypsies of the Blackmoor setting. I might even link it to the Gypsy sayings from the FFC. Having a travelling people in a setting is always a good source of adventures. I will detach them completely from inventions and machines as other races fill that niche in this setting.

Havard

[Big Mac]

Gnomes, seem really pointless to me as they come off as goofy dwarves with an engineering fetish and that's completely unlike anything from folklore.

I've always really associated that type of gnome with Dragonlance (and Spelljammer - where they are travellers from Krynn).

I think that DL gnomes worked very well, but then other campaign settings (and core D&D) said: "this is popular, lets copy it". I think that was a mistake, because it dilutes the good idea of DL, but also because this DL element doesn't necessarily fit in with the cultures of other campaign settings.

I want my demihuman groups to feel like nations, that fit into the local geography, rather than some sort of universal stereotype.

With Blackmoor having more tech than other settings, I could see someone making a case for gnomes that are similar to DL gnomes, but they shouldn't really be identical to them. I'd be wanting to focus on the differences in Dave Arneson's gnomes.

[Havard]

I've always really associated that type of gnome with Dragonlance (and Spelljammer - where they are travellers from Krynn).

I think that DL gnomes worked very well, but then other campaign settings (and core D&D) said: "this is popular, lets copy it". I think that was a mistake, because it dilutes the good idea of DL, but also because this DL element doesn't necessarily fit in with the cultures of other campaign settings.

I actually don't think DL was where the inventor type gnomes came from originally, but that is certainly the setting which is most famous for it.

I want my demihuman groups to feel like nations, that fit into the local geography, rather than some sort of universal stereotype.

Agreed! Demihumans need different cultures just like humans do.

With Blackmoor having more tech than other settings, I could see someone making a case for gnomes that are similar to DL gnomes, but they shouldn't really be identical to them. I'd be wanting to focus on the differences in Dave Arneson's gnomes.

I would actually go the other way. Blackmoor has tech, but this technology is in no way tied to the Gnomes. Blackmoorian technology is tied to dwarves, wizards, the City of the Gods and possibly the Egg of Coot. Gnomes need a different niche. That is why I suggested the whole wandering folk/gypsy thing since it is already mentioned in the 3E book.

I think Greg said there were Gnomes in Arneson's games, but in the published material they play almost no role at all. They were even removed in the 4E version of Blackmoor, possibly because PHB2 was not out yet, but at the same time, their removal did not affect the setting much.

Havard

[Havard]

I have split off this discussions from the Demihumans of Blackmoor thread.


I'm returning to the topic of Gnomes because I discovered a reference to the Rotter Clan of Gnomes in MMRPG Ep 61 which states that this clan has withdrawn from The Neck to South Pim after the Afridhi invasions there. That is the only Gnome Clan I know about though.

I have included some details on Gnomes in my Dwarf/Gnome Timeline.

What else is known about the Gnomes of Blackmoor? What have you done with Blackmoorian Gnomes in your campaigns?

-Havard

[finarvyn]

The one thing I picked up of interest about Gnomes in the D20 book is that they are a wandering people, sort of like gypsies.

I suspect they wander a lot because nobody likes them. Well, maybe that's just me.

Funny how I can enjoy hobbits, generic halflings, even kinder ... but I dislike gnomes for some reason. :oops:

[Havard]

The one thing I picked up of interest about Gnomes in the D20 book is that they are a wandering people, sort of like gypsies.

I suspect they wander a lot because nobody likes them. Well, maybe that's just me.

Funny how I can enjoy hobbits, generic halflings, even kinder ... but I dislike gnomes for some reason. :oops:

I don't know why you dislike them, but it seems like there are so many different incarnations of Gnomes that I don't know if they have a single identity as a race. In some material they are very similar to Dwarves. Others, like Dragonlance and Mystara focus on the inventor aspect of Gnomes. D&D 4E changed them again and made them more Fey-like.

I am still trying to pinpoint how Blackmoor Gnomes should be portrayed. The d20 sourcebook Clock & Steam does suggest a more tinkerish type of Gnome. Again, Blackmoor's technological theme makes it easy to use them in this fashion. On the other hand, humans, dwarves and even elves have their share of dabbling with technological devices in Blackmoor so this means Gnomes have even less of a niche of their own here.

In my original post, I picked up on the "gypsy" comparison used in the main d20 Sourcebook. At the moment, I think I am moving away from that idea. I like the idea of small family units of Gnomes moving from town to town looking for work, but I think they should instead be compared to more common medieval craftsmen. Gnomes should not have the exotic connotations of "gypsies" and Blackmoor gnomes are known not to show of wealth, preferring very common clothing. Unlike dwarves who are masters at crafts like Blacksmithing, and massive steam machineries, Gnomes are much more specialized in finer crafts like making jewelry, gem cutting or tiny clockwork devices. Mages and Dwarves like working with Gnomes because they can offer expertise in this particular fields so that the Mages and Dwarves can incorporate these crafts in their larger constructs.

Could this be a direction to take gnomes?

-Havard

[Yaztromo]

Do you remember that Mystara's Northlands Gazzetteer they reference (allegedly) ex-Blackmoorian Gnomes in caves in Soderfjord (or was it Vestland?) and they appear to be very highly refined WRT technology (they had calculators etc.).
That's perhaps not supercanon Blackmoor, but very close to that.

[Havard]

Do you remember that Mystara's Northlands Gazzetteer they reference (allegedly) ex-Blackmoorian Gnomes in caves in Soderfjord (or was it Vestland?) and they appear to be very highly refined WRT technology (they had calculators etc.).
That's perhaps not supercanon Blackmoor, but very close to that.

Ah yes, we have a thread about the Falun Cavern Gnomes in the Mystara section. Its hard to say if there would be much of a link between Thonian Year 1030 and AC1000 Mystara Gnomes even if we assume that they are part of the same continuity. That technology could have been developed over the milennia between them. I really like that adventure seed from the Northern Reaches Gazetteer though.

As I said, the weird thing about Blackmoor is that technology isn't something that is exclusive to Gnomes. But I do like the idea that Gnomes specialize in a specific type of technology involving fine machinery, clockwork engines etc.

I am still looking for non-tech related features of Blackmoor gnomes though. I guess the crazy inventor stereotypes still apply. I'd love to play a Gnome who was just a really rational, scientific minded, but down to earth analytical character though just to break that stereotype.

-Havard

[Yaztromo]

I really like that adventure seed from the Northern Reaches Gazetteer though.

I wholeheartedly agree!

[ripvanwormer]

When I was a kid, my main models for gnomes were:

1. The Nomes from L. Frank Baum's Oz books, who were wicked and unpleasant.
2. The gnomes from The Silver Chair by C.S. Lewis, where they were slaves of the Green-Witch helping their mistress in her attempt to conquer Narnia.
3. The G'home Gnomes from Terry Brooks' novel Magic Kingdom For Sale—Sold!, who were stupid, greedy, and unpleasant.
4. The gnomes from Gnomes, the classic coffee table book by Wil Huygen, and The World of David the Gnome, the cartoon inspired by it, who were all twee and unpleasant.
5. The hypothetical gnomes that I was semi-convinced infested my house and caused things to fall unexpectedly, like poltergeists or boggarts.
6. The garden gnomes in my grandmother's yard, who were suspect (for the above reasons, I assumed every gnome was plotting something).
7. The tinker gnomes from Dragonlance and Spelljammer, who were appealingly funny but completely inept.

So I didn't like gnomes very much. It didn't help that they weren't a PC race in BECMI D&D, which is the flavor of D&D I originally cut my teeth on, and the Red Box Basic Set said "They love gold and gems and have been known to make bad decisions just to obtain them," which wasn't an appealing trait (though it appealed to me because I hated gnomes and appreciated any anti-gnome propaganda).

So it wasn't until I moved to (2nd edition) AD&D (at my players' request) that I started to come around to gnomes. In 2e they were tricksy illusionists and the only PC race to get an intelligence bonus. A story I read in junior high, written in a student publication, made much of gnomes being the most intelligent of races and that made me consider that they might have worth. But in AD&D their trickiness was sometimes treated as sadism (for example, the gnome brigands in The Book of Lairs II) so they still didn't come across that well.

So it took me a while to come around to gnomes.

In general it's hard to use gnomes because their role in the fantasy world has never been as clear cut as elves, dwarves, and halflings. Dwarves are stalwart, taciturn miners and engineers. Elves are slender, beautiful tree-huggers. Halflings are phlegmatic farmers who live in holes. Tolkien didn't use them except as another name for the Noldor elves. So what are gnomes? Like dwarves, but smaller and greedier? If they're tinkers and engineers, what are dwarves, who also have inventing/engineering skills in The Dwarves of Rockhome gazetteer?

2nd edition AD&D made use of the tinker stereotype while making its gnomes less inept than the Dragonlance ones. The Complete Bards Handbook gave us the gnomish professor kit. The Arms and Equipment Guide gave us gnomish armor, which is covered with tools and pouches. But 2e also had trouble thinking of things for gnomes to do, forcing them to share a book with halflings when the Complete Race series got around to them.

3rd edition amped up the "tricksy illusionist" angle by giving all gnomes inherent illusion magic, regardless of their character class.

4th edition actually created a recognizable niche for its gnomes by having them replace the brownies, buckawns, leprechauns, and other benign wee folk of previous editions. Gnomes stood in for all faerie commoners and craftsmen, while fey nobles were eladrins. Their backstory was that they were enslaved by fomorian giants.

But Blackmoor. We were talking about Blackmoor.

It's understandable that they're a minor race in Blackmoor because they weren't a PC race in OD&D or BECMI until Top Ballista and the Rules Cyclopedia. The Hollow World boxed set said that Garal Glitterlode didn't create them until BC 2,900, a century after the Great Rain of Fire ended the Blackmoor era. Zeitgeist Games made a place for them because they tried to make a place for all Player's Handbook races in both 3e and 4e, but could probably have a more distinctive place in the world. The authors closely tied the gnomish pantheon to the dwarvish one, and the creation story there is that the gnomish god Charis was created when the dwarvish god of magic first touched the earth. Gnomes, then, are related to dwarves but touched with magic.

In Mystara, Garal created the gnomes after the dwarvish race he had been born from was dying from radiation poisoning, replacing them with a race that was smaller and more adaptable. One idea is to bring that idea to Blackmoor but instead of using the Great Rain of Fire as a catalyst, use the wars against the orcs (or beastmen) or the Mage Wars (or something even earlier, like the War of the Pious and Philosophers in the Wilderlands setting) as the reason that Mieroc or Charis felt the dwarves had to be recreated into something more flexible. Mieroc could easily be another name for Garal, and Charis could be Terra.