Supplement II: Was there a lost Underwater adventure?

[Havard]

OD&D Supplement 2 has a wide range of monsters. We know from other sources that TSR's editorial staff were unhappy with the material that Dave Arneson submitted for Supplement II. We also know that TSR at the time (before JG proved them wrong), TSR did not believe money could be made from publishing adventures. Could it be that Dave Arneson submitted not only the Temple of the Frog, but also an underwater adventure for Supplement II? In supplement II we find two pages on Underwater adventures and a surprisingly large number of the monsters included are appropriate for underwater adventuring.

Add to this the lengthy background for the Sahuagin. The reference to Evil High Priests who can brieathe under water also seems like they are taken out of their original context. We know that Dave Arneson loved naval gaming, so could some of these pages be from something bigger that Dave was working on?

The following monsters from Supplement II would be appropriate in an Underwater adventure:

Mermen
Giant Crabs
Giant Octopi
Giant Squid
Giant Crocodile
Giant Leech
Dinosaur: Elasmosaurus
Dinosaur: Mosasaurus
Dinosaur: Plesiosaurus
Giant Shark
Whale
Giant Eel
Lamprey
Sea Horse
Portugese Man of War (Manatae)
Dolphins
Aquatic Elves
Pungi Ray
Manta Ray
Water Spiders (Giant sea Spider)
Weed Eels
Sahuagin
Floating Eyes (Fish)
Ixitxachith
Locathah
Morkoth (or Morlock)
Masher
Poisonous Coral
Strangle Weed
Nymph (as Dryad)
Leech
Evil High Priest (Underwater!)
Sea Hag (As Dryad)
Kopoacinth (Underwater Gargoyle)
Koalinth (Underwater Hobgoblin)
Lacecdon (Ghoul, aquatic)




-Havard

[aldarron]

That'd be nice, but I've never seen anything that would even hint at such a thing. Plus the TOtF itself is a pretty big work. Not sure Dave would have had time to write another scenario unless it was a fairly short kinda thing.

I'm also not convinced there is a whole lot of "lost" material from supplement II. Dave tended to recycle, and it seems likely to me that some of that stuff showed up later. Especially, I'd bet dollars to donunts that the "Special Interests" section of the FFC was part of the material Dave submitted for Supp II that got cut.

[Havard]

That'd be nice, but I've never seen anything that would even hint at such a thing. Plus the TOtF itself is a pretty big work. Not sure Dave would have had time to write another scenario unless it was a fairly short kinda thing.

Fair points.

The thing that got me thinking about it were the details on the underwater mages. It seems like a reference taken from something else and brought in with some context missing. Of course another possibility is that it was taken from something written by Steven Marsh or Tim Kask, but still edited in a way where something was cut...

I'm also not convinced there is a whole lot of "lost" material from supplement II. Dave tended to recycle, and it seems likely to me that some of that stuff showed up later. Especially, I'd bet dollars to donunts that the "Special Interests" section of the FFC was part of the material Dave submitted for Supp II that got cut.

Interesting theory! I think the Special Interest section could have worked very well with OD&D, especially with some modifications. Any particular reason why you think this particular section is what was discarded? I agree that the things being cut likely appeared in the FFC, but never gave any thought to what specific sections might have been submitted.


-Havard

[Yaztromo]

Very interesting conjectures.

[aldarron]

... Any particular reason why you think this particular section is what was discarded? I agree that the things being cut likely appeared in the FFC, but never gave any thought to what specific sections might have been submitted.


-Havard

Yeah. So the whole thing reads like something written for publication; IOW it is not a bunch of campaign notes or a player handout.

If you look at the details, it is very clearly written for published D&D.

Now, we know that Supplement II was pubulished at the very tail end of 1975 after several months of editing at the hands of Blume first and Kask second. So we can safely assume the manuscript was submitted sometime between mid summer to early fall of 1975 (roughly August to October)

Let's look at the class list given in the Special Interest section:

Fm
C
Mu

Ranger
Paladin
Assassin
Merchant
Sage

Okay. First 3 are from the 3lbbs, of course. Ranger comes from the summer 1975 issue of Strategic Review.

What classes are missing from the list? Thief? yes, sort of, but we do have Assassin. Also Paladin comes from Greyhawk so Supplement I is definitely included.

Illusionist and Bard from the Strategic Review are missing for sure, as are any of the classes found in Dragon magazine. Illusionist wasn't published until the winter issue of 1975; Bard, came out in the spring of '76. So only the Ranger class could have been known to Dave when he was writing Supplement II.

Now of the last 3 classes, Assasin and Sage are both found in Supplement II. Merchant is not, but Monk is, and we know that Blume invented the Monk class. My suspicion is that he tossed out Arneson's Merchant and replaced it with his monk. (which makes one wonder if any of the Merchants mechanics became part of the monks) In any case, there was no published Monk when Arneson was writing Supp II.

So the Special Interest Class list fits exactly the classes available to Dave in the summer of 1975 when he would have been writing Supp II.