Lost civilization in Dismal Swamp

[aldarron]

For me, one of the things that seemed to be a problem when gaming in Blackmoor was the overall newness of the place. I mean, one of the great tropes of D&D is the discovery of ancient treasures in ruins thousands of years old from ancient days of glory. Other than elves, Blackmoor was pretty much an uncivilized backwater.

I ran into this problem in particular when I tried to place Barrowmaze in Blackmoor and had trouble finding a suitable location for the extensive and old cemetery complex.

Anyway, the other day it hit me. There really was an extensive, ancient civilization in Blackmoor, and an exotic, alien one to boot. It's just hidden in the Great Dismal Swamp. Here are the references I was able to find:

MMRPG Episode 28:
Ziggurat from an ancient, lost civilization with frog god carvings and multiple statues of a leader/ god named Ritotar, depicted as a humanoid with a frog like head. Also prayers to Ritotar in an ancient script

From the Blackmoor campaign sourcebook : Great Dismal Swamp: Rumors tell that under the swamp’s waters lie the remains of a great civilization that collapsed long before mankind knew Blackmoor. Some say that feverish madmen now work tirelessly within the depths of the swamp in the hopes of resuscitating an ancient evil, lying trapped beneath the mud.

From d20 Temple of the Frog by Harley Stroh:
The Cult of Brr’bb’t (as it is known in an batrachian tongue of unknown origin) is an ancient religion whose existence predates human—and perhaps even Elven—settlement of the North. No one is precisely sure how old the cult is, not even its adherents. All that is known is that it has been a feature of the Great Dismal Swamp for as long as anyone can remember which is to say, effectively forever. The original founders of the cult, intelligent amphibians of a sort now extinct, were urged on by their strange god, Brr’bb’t, to subdue the Dismal and spread outward, with an eye toward conquering the lands beyond. Unfortunately, these amphibious beings were poorly adapted to life outside the swamp. They had difficulty surviving in other environments and thus their cult was confined to their native environment. Over time, the cult attracted non-amphibians to its service, luring them with promises of wealth and power.


Awesome right?

For my campaign, I will need to flesh this out a bit further and have been looking online for supplements, etc. that might be helpful, but I wonder if the community here has any thoughts.

[Rafael]

Played on this when I set "Caverns of Thracia" in Blackmoor - I used the Duchy of Ten, in general, as a place where people had dwelled before the arrival of king Robert.

[Havard]

Great findings! Especially the MMRPG reference.

I think that in these two sources, the civilisation referenced is connected to the Sar Aigu. It could either be the Sar Aigu themselves, or other races either working as slaves for or as allies or fringe groups of the Sar Aigu civilization. Some of the description of the Sar Aigu makes it seem like they are just a handful of individual mystics coming out of the Swamps and eventually discovering the magic of the Blackmoor Peninsula, but I think it is very much possible to talk of a Sar Aigu Civilization. It is hard to give estimates for when the Sar Aigu Age was, but I think that it would have to be at leat 3000 years before the founding of Thonia (or 4000 years before the modern Blackmoor Era).

I really like the reference to the God Riotar. At first I thought he could be the same deity as Brr’bb’t (or Tsathoggua as he is known IMC), but he could also be a lesser servitor of Brr’bb’t.

I think that there is plenty of room for other ancient civlizations on Blackmoor as well, either predating the Sar Aigu or following them. Published material gives us several examples, but they do not have to be the end of the story either. There could be many more groups appearing and disappearing over the centuries, many even coexisting with the groups listed in the D20 Books.

I really like the idea of secrets being held by the Dismal Swamp, so I would love to hear more about those ideas!

-Havard

[Rafael]

For my campaign, I will need to flesh this out a bit further and have been looking online for supplements, etc. that might be helpful, but I wonder if the community here has any thoughts.

*Yawns.* I was tired when I wrote my first answer, I am tired as I type this now. Coffeeeeeeeee...

I used "Caverns of Thracia", as per the d20 version, after running it on a weekend back in '06.
Worked surprisingly surprisingly well as written, in combination with the Blackmoor d20 material.
I set the game around the Starmorgan area, as opposed to the swamp, though, which makes sense, IMO,
given that Thracia d20 essentially is about discovering a large underdark/ersatz Hollow World.

Thracia's Immortal King works pretty well within the lich-infested Duchy, and the beastman element felt very Blackmoor-y at the time.


The TotF d20 update also read pretty well, and one could build on that one, instead of doing the St. Stephen/CoG angle, of which I always felt
that it overloaded the module with content, if you know what I mean. But that one, I didn't run, so I am careful to give a blind recommendation.

All the best, Aldy, and good to see you're still around!

[aldarron]

Great findings! Especially the MMRPG reference.

I think that in these two sources, the civilisation referenced is connected to the Sar Aigu. It could either be the Sar Aigu themselves, or other races either working as slaves for or as allies or fringe groups of the Sar Aigu civilization. Some of the description of the Sar Aigu makes it seem like they are just a handful of individual mystics coming out of the Swamps and eventually discovering the magic of the Blackmoor Peninsula, but I think it is very much possible to talk of a Sar Aigu Civilization. It is hard to give estimates for when the Sar Aigu Age was, but I think that it would have to be at leat 3000 years before the founding of Thonia (or 4000 years before the modern Blackmoor Era).......
-Havard

Yeah, Sar aigu was my first thought also. But then again they don't seem quite right. They seem too brutish to have ever had more than a tribal sort of organization and fairly low order of civilization. They also are reptiles, strictly speaking and not amphibians, though that could be easily handwaived. Sar aigu are also not extinct, but still it seems like there should be some connection.

It's the question of what happened to them that has given me some ideas. I started to think about the description in d20 TotF about how the original froglin creatures were to delicate to survive outside the swamp. So perhaps their species began to die off due to environmental changes - the ph of the water or something. Perhaps then the frog cult really arose out of that deperation. Thier wizard/alchemists began experiments in making hybreds with aligators and other fearsome but hardy swamp creatures in a miguided attempt to preserve the species. Sar aigu and perhaps gator men could well be the result. I could see these new franken creatures soon turning on their creators and being the final nail in the coffin for that civilization.

Somenting like 3500 years ago, give or take, sounds about right.

I took advantage of the GM day sale at rpgnow to download a bunch of swamp related stuff. One adventure that seems to be easily adapted is spahn's Pyramid of the dragon.

[Dave L]

Rather than being genetic creations, you could have the Sar Aigu as slaves or servants of the froglin creatures, and as their civilisation faded and died out it was ironically the servants who were hardy enough to survive the environmental changes.

That would explain their low order of civilisation and their tribal structure - they need someone at the top to tell them what to do.

[aldarron]

Hmm. Starting to flesh out this idea a little further. The civilization should have a name, of course....

I thought I'd make a nod to Arnesson's Scandinavian ancestry so I looked up some words for frog. Maybe "groda" (sweedish) has promise, but I don't know how best to use that. I mean (and I'm looking mostly at you Havard) should it be the Groda; Grodan; Grodoan; Grodian; Grodalin?

Maybe Groda from the Grodan empire? I dunno.

Or maybe some other name entirely? Suggestions?

[Havard]

Hmm. Starting to flesh out this idea a little further. The civilization should have a name, of course....

I thought I'd make a nod to Arnesson's Scandinavian ancestry so I looked up some words for frog. Maybe "groda" (sweedish) has promise, but I don't know how best to use that. I mean (and I'm looking mostly at you Havard) should it be the Groda; Grodan; Grodoan; Grodian; Grodalin?

Maybe Groda from the Grodan empire? I dunno.

Or maybe some other name entirely? Suggestions?

I like Grodian

I agree that there is something about the Sar Aigu/Froglin relationship that does not entirely make sense. I do believe that the origin of both races is tied to the entity known as The Frog though. It is perfectly possible that he is neither a Frog nor a Lizard.

It occurs to me that the Eras described in the Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor are named after whoever controlled the Blackmoor Peninsula (the location of Castle Blackmoor later) at the time, not who controlled the entire North or the world at large. It is perfectly possible to have multiple races and civilisations existing at the same time as the ones controlling the Peninsula.

As to the Sar-Aigu, I do not see them as primitive, but rather just alien in the Lovecraftian sense. Their purposes and behaviour is nearly impossible to understand to a human mind. At the same time, they would have been able to evoke powerful magic, including the ability to summon demons. I would not have them be slaves of the Froglin, but I agree that the Froggies are more likely to build the kind of structures that humans could identify.

BTW, sorry for the late response. I've just been a bit busy again

-Havard

[aldarron]

Grodian it is then

I think you have some good points about the Sar aigu. When I have a bit more time I'll write something up and post it.

[aldarron]

Five thousand three hundred and forty four years before the founding of the Great Empire, the first magnificent civilization of the Northern Marches died a grisly death. For a millennium a highly intelligent and delicate amphibious race, the Groda, had raised wonderous stone spires, ziggurats, and cities surrounding broad plazas, throughout the great swamp of Mil. They had developed magnificint magics, arts and architecture, but their greatness became their downfall, as they began to reach out, seeking new territories and colonies, the discovered something else, a plague which ran through the populace like wildfire, killing millions. They had long attracted the attention of dark and sinister forces, the Baledraugs, who sensing their weakness, began to attack them. One by one the Grodian cities toppled. The groda turned to dark magics to try to save themselves. They bred new warrior races, the Sar-Aigu and the Gator men, to fight the Baledraugs, but these new servants were easily corrupted, and often as not turned on their masters. The groda soon were no more.

Deep in the swamp lies many a mystery. Ancient ruins, barely visible rising from the muck and covered in verdure, surround a low hill. In a broad opening on the hill, a strange pyramid like ruins seem to guard a passage leading into darkness.