The before Thonia world of Blackmoor

[aldarron]

In the mundane world, there once was a Blackmoor before there was a Thonia. Arneson apparently borrowed the name in the mid 80's from Mystara, perhaps to tie things in to that world. In any case that created a "new" history of Blackmoor as a fringe borderland north of the great empire and civilization of Thonia.

My question is what do we know of the lands south of Blackmoor before Thonia was added? My sense is that the original idea was one more of small kingdoms or city states or some such, somehow tied to the judges guild wilderland map or to the C&C societies maps etc. Any ideas?

[Rafael]

In the mundane world, there once was a Blackmoor before there was a Thonia. Arneson apparently borrowed the name in the mid 80's from Mystara, perhaps to tie things in to that world. In any case that created a "new" history of Blackmoor as a fringe borderland north of the great empire and civilization of Thonia.

Not exactly. In Arneson's campaign, Thonia was always just "The Great Kingdom". I think Thonia would actually have been one of David Ritchie's additions.

My question is what do we know of the lands south of Blackmoor before Thonia was added? My sense is that the original idea was one more of small kingdoms or city states or some such, somehow tied to the judges guild wilderland map or to the C&C societies maps etc. Any ideas?

No. In the FFC, the lands of Blackmoor are defined as nomad lands (later Peshwah) and said Great Kingdom.

This was a reference to Robert J Kuntz' "Great Kingdom" (setting of the Maze of Zayene series, among others), from the Castles & Crusades society.

However, Arneson's Great Kingdom had distinguishable features as early as the FFC.

The pre-Thonian timeline you find in the announcement section of this board is, although based on Blackmoor and Wilderlands stuff, almost purely my creation.

[aldarron]

No. In the FFC, the lands of Blackmoor are defined as nomad lands (later Peshwah) and said Great Kingdom.

This was a reference to Robert J Kuntz' "Great Kingdom" (setting of the Maze of Zayene series, among others), from the Castles & Crusades society.

However, Arneson's Great Kingdom had distinguishable features as early as the FFC.

Very interesting. What might some of those distinguishable features be?

[Rafael]

I don't recall them in detail, but for example, the names of the kings, a few city names, and of course, the Iron Duke, something like the proto-Warduke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warduke

[Rafael]

I should emphasize that I have none of the relevant texts at hand for the next few months. Being one year abroad for a sabbatical.

[Havard]

Very interesting topic gentlemen!

Not exactly. In Arneson's campaign, Thonia was always just "The Great Kingdom". I think Thonia would actually have been one of David Ritchie's additions.

This is pretty much correct. However, the name Thonia originally appeared on the map in the D&D Master's Set by Frank Mentzer. Ritchie linked Blackmoor to Thonia, suggesting that the "Thonia" on the Mystara map was where the inhabitants of the Great Kingdom fled to after the Great Rain of Fire. This is all part of Ritchie's project of connecting Mystara and Blackmoor. IIRC Bruce Heard was already Product Manager of the Classic D&D line at this time, so he may have played a role in this as well.

Very little is known about the Mystaran Thonia, though Frank Mentzer suggested he may have had the word "Cthonia" in mind when he came up with that name. This is interesting since the word Cthonia also pops up in Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor....

Havard

[Havard]

I moved the discussion about Cthonia into a separate thread.

Havard

[Havard]

One of the reasons why I split the Cthonia stuff to another thread, is that I wanted to Aldarron's original question:

My question is what do we know of the lands south of Blackmoor before Thonia was added? My sense is that the original idea was one more of small kingdoms or city states or some such, somehow tied to the judges guild wilderland map or to the C&C societies maps etc. Any ideas?

Some facts about the Great Kingdom:

* It was founded by King Robert I of Geneva who also founded Blackmoor
* There are 10 Provinces, each about the size of the region marked on the Blackmoor map.
* The capital is named Mohacs (After a famous Hungarian Battlefield)
* The northernmost province, ruled by Taha Marcovic is called Borno (After the Czech town Brno with a well known castle).
* A dark-skinned race known as Bolgers also live in the Kingdom (DA1)

The Great Kingdom started out as an ally of Blackmoor and would often send troops to defend its friends in the North against the Egg or the Skandaharians. However, after a while things seem to have changed in the Kingdom. The "Unwanted" were people driven from the Kingdom who settled in the Duchy of the Peaks and later founded the Duchy of Ten. This must have been a sign that something was rotten in the Kingdom.

With Uther's rebellion, Blackmoor also breaks with the Great Kingdom, meaning something surely must have been wrong there. After that, the Great Kingdom has made several attempts to reclaim Blackmoor, but all have failed.

As to connections to the Judges Guild, you could assume that the Great Kingdom is Karrak, meaning the main area of the Wilderlands setting will be to the west of the Great Kingdom, or you can have Karrak be a separate realm between the Great Kingdom and the Wilderlands.

Havard

[aldarron]

Very interesting indeed. Where do your "Great Kingdom" facts come from Havard? DA1? (The Only DA series I have is the Totf) or various places? Is there a map? Somehow I like the sound of this a lot more than the d20 Thonian empire. I'll be looking more closely at RJK's setting. Perhaps it would be interesting to merge his "Great Kingdom" with Blackmoors...

edit: seems others have thought along similar lines before http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... 0&start=30

[Havard]

Very interesting indeed. Where do your "Great Kingdom" facts come from Havard? DA1? (The Only DA series I have is the Totf) or various places? Is there a map? Somehow I like the sound of this a lot more than the d20 Thonian empire. I'll be looking more closely at RJK's setting. Perhaps it would be interesting to merge his "Great Kingdom" with Blackmoors...

My information is from DA1 and the FFC. DA1 has more too, but since you asked about the Great Kingdom before it became Thonia, I tried to rely mostly on the information from the FFC. I wrote it off memory though so I cant remember exactly how much is in that book about the GK, but definately the information about the shifting relations between the Kingdom and Blackmoor.

edit: seems others have thought along similar lines before :http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=printview&t=540&start=30

I can't access the MMRPG forum from work, but I'm guessing this is the thread where Michael Falconer posted many of his ideas? That is definately a good place to start researching ideas for this realm.

BTW: ZGG once stated that their lisence did not give them the permission to flesh out Thonia or the Duchy of Ten, so very little can be learned of Thonia in the D20 Sourcebooks.

My own impression is that Thonia started out as a benign realm under King Robert I, but eventually fell into corruption and decay. This is why so many people have been eager to leave the empire for the North.

Havard