[Necromancer Repost] Blackmoor (Jan-Jul 2007)

[Havard]

From: http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... oor?page=1

mtbdm:

Does anyone have a map of how the Wilderlands links up with Blackmoor? I know many have joined the two worlds into a single setting at the "Valley of the Ancients" which appears on both maps. Does anyone have an image file of what the resulting continent would look like?

I'd also be interested in any maps showing Karak or the Demon Empires.

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magoo:
I remember seeing that map linked on this board. Can't remember who posted it and where it is...

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leadjunkie:
Yeah, I have the same recollection. Too bad the search feature on these boards is so terrible.

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Mtbdm:
I tried searching online but couldn't find any current links. I know they link up at the Valley of the ancients, but was looking for a more specific "Hex X is right above..." sort of thing OR a picture.
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JamesMishler:
Unfortunately, they do not quite match up perfectly.

The Blackmoor map from First Fantasy Campaign is at 10-miles per hex, so it is actually four times the size of a regular Wilderlands campaign map. The south-western quadrant of the Blackmoor map is the same size as the map of the Valley of the Ancients (new map #3), which it more or less stands above. However, there is at least a one to three hex "buffer" between the two maps, as they do not quite match up/overlap as the other Wilderlands maps do. That's something you have to figure our on your own...

The problem comes in, of course, if you use the later TSR "DA-series" version of Blackmoor, which takes the exact same map as used in First Fantasy Campaign and converts it to 24 miles per hex, later adding on a whole new section of southern Blackmoor/northern Thonia in the City of the Gods adventure module... none of these maps are compatible with the Wilderlands maps, so only the First Fantasy Campaign map really fits with the Wilderlands.

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Robsconley:
The problem is that First Fantasy Campaign map is 10 mile per hex and Wilderlands is 5 miles per hex. So it requires a fair amount of work to make a combined map.

FFC map is equal to four wilderland maps.

Rob Conley
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Blair Goatsblood:
The maps from the DA series ine up nicely with the widerlands map, IMO, if you have them to the east of the WL. Blackmoor is NE if the Valey of the Ancients. The city of the gods maps is to the east of the Valley of the Ancients.

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lkj:
A guy on the Blackmoor boards did his own conceptualization based on various sources.

The map is here:



There's a key here:

boards1.wizards.com/showt...st11120738

And a discussion about it here:

http://www.dablackmoor.com/MMRPG...opic&t=540

Hope that helps.

AD

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Havard:

Thanks for pointing me this way lkj!

I have made an expanded version of the map to include the entire Wilderlands Setting:



Although I own the PG and the boxed set, I am hardly an expert on the WL and would love to get input on how to improve this map to do each setting justice.

Havard

[Havard]

Continued:

Robsconley:
This graphic is how I always understood the two combined.

The river running through the plains of Hak doesn't have a corresponding river on the other side so I would solve that by having extend a little ways into Map 3 and end.

Originally (1980) I did this by taking original map 3 and ran a photocopy at half size. (four sheets or so taped together) and aligning it with the blackmoor map.

The left edge of blackmoor to the start of the valley of the ancients aligns perfectly with the left edge of Map 3 to the end of the valley ancients. Given that old judges guild did these maps by making a master and then having a printer shoot it with a camera I suspect something similar was done in the first place.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/ ... stwild.jpg (link broken)

Enjoy
Rob Conley

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Havard:
Thanks for your feedback Rob!

I guess the main difference between our two versions is that I moved the Wilderlands a little to the southwest to make room for the (slightly modified) DA maps and the Great Glacier. Unless the Great Glacier is supposed to be the Tiny Glacier or block the path of the Afridhi from entering Blackmoor I felt the need to make some room for it.

Another thing: I have extended some of the countries/regions quite a bit. Especially Elphand, Viridistan and Ghinor have been extended considerably and the two first have been given access to a sea to the west. How does this fit with the overall setting?

How do people feel about the size of Karak? Does it seem right? Should Thonia have access to the Wilderlands Sea? Or would that suggest that they would have a stronger influence on the Wilderlands than they do?

Just a couple of things that I had to consider when making my map.

Havard

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JamesMishler:
Havard,

Excellent work! I think that your solution works best when adding together Wilderlands, Blackmoor, AND Mystara. It takes the needs of all three settings and makes them fit with minimal kludginess. The only issue, as you mention, is the Great Glacier, and that is supposed to be more or less unnatural in extent, anyhoo...

Another thing: I have extended some of the countries/regions quite a bit. Especially Elphand, Viridistan and Ghinor have been extended considerably and the two first have been given access to a sea to the west. How does this fit with the overall setting?

Viridistan definitely does not extend that far west; no big deal. If you want to make it closer to canon, split it off about where the "t" is, and points west should be labeled "Demi-Giant Kingdoms," an extension of the demi-giant kingdoms you've placed on Belissaria (in Mystara, an isolated colony thereof, which works with the giant kingdoms I put on the Dawn Territories at this time in my Blackmoor timeline).

You might want to split the Elphand Lands in twain, as well... the west of that region is known as the "Land of Beasts," and is a "Lost Worlds" region, complete with sabertooth tigers, mammoths, and even dinosaurs. That would be why the Afridhi didn't go south, either...

The Desert Lands actually do extend that far west, and further, even, so that works.

The Ament Tundra, strictly speaking, is confined to the single campaign map (#16 in current numbering, #14 in the old). I'd add most of the rest of the southern section of that continent to the Demon Empires, as they are quite extensive.

How do people feel about the size of Karak? Does it seem right? Should Thonia have access to the Wilderlands Sea? Or would that suggest that they would have a stronger influence on the Wilderlands than they do?

Karak works as is, when you have to take Thonia's existence into account. Officially, Karak is twice the size of the entire Wilderlands (i.e., 36 campaign maps in size!), but this version works fine for the M-Wilderlands. Here, Karak can play Persia to the Thonian Rome. Your "Province of Bolgerie" gives Thonia more than enough access, and from the sounds of it, the peoples of Bolgerie are probably of Karak extraction with a dollop of the Thonian, so if the peoples of the Wilderlands were to ever encounter a "Thonian" from Bolgerie, they'd simply assume they were odd "Eastern" Karakhans...

Altogether, I really like what you've done! Excellent work!

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Treebore:
That map works for me just fine! Thanks.

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James: Thanks for your kind words! As you will notice I am also retaining Janivarsland which I believe you suggested to me when I was making a previous map.

I think I will try to make a modified version of the map, taking into account your suggestions. I want to wait a little though, so see if there are more things I should include.

For instance, I noticed that the Demon Empire should have access to the Darkwine Sea. I was thinking I could extend the eastern border of that kingdom a little so that it would reach around the Southern Reaches.

Also, I am wondering whether I should indicate the border between the Horned Lands and the Demon Empire or not. I suspect those borders are constantly shifting, so thats why I didn't get into that this time around.

The province of Bolgerie comes from the description of Skathros the Strangler. He is suspected to be a Bolger, a people described to have african traits.

I thought about making Karak=Thonia, but decided it would be more interesting to have them as two separate realms. As you say, they could be like Persia and Rome, or they could even have had a history of once being united like the eastern and western Roman Empires.

What is the real world inspiration for Karak if any? I noticed that they follow the Indian Pantheon, yet they are a horse people. I don't know much more about them at all.

Thanks to all who have commented on my map so far.

Havard

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James Mishler:
The Karakhan peoples are a mix of Mongolian and Indian, for the most part; think Mughal, only with the Hindu gods rather than Islam, plus nobles are generally wizards or sorcerers. There are many sub-tribes and conquered peoples (after all, Karak is HUGE), but the dominant culture has existed in one form or another for tens of thousands of years.

Regarding my comments as to the nature of Karak and the size of various lands and such are from as-yet unpublished materials. The lands around the Wilderlands will be published through my company, Adventure Games Publishing, from maps and information from Bob's original campaigns. The first such product will focus on the north-western quadrant of Karak, an area the size of nine of the standard Wilderlands campaign maps, adjacent to the Valley of the Ancients, Tarantis, and the Ebony Coast.




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Havard:
James, excellent input!

I think the changes you made for Karak actually makes the map look more interesting.

Care to shed any light on those new regions you added? I am definately looking forward to seeing your book on Karak. I'm happy to hear that things are in motion at your company.

Back to the map: I think I will try to make a new map incorporating what you have just illustrated. Another change I would like to make is to connect the Western and Eastern Tanogoro lands. They were split up to create sea access to the Wilderlands, but since this access is now made next to the Demonic Empire I don't feel that is neccesary any longer. What do you think?

I like the connection between the Demi-Giants of Bellisaria and your Dawn territory Giant Kingdom BTW. Your Blackmoor timeline is pretty much canon IMC so that works very well.

Cheers!

Havard
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Gaishunk:
Great maps, Hvard! Thank you very much for you effort and time! I'll surely use it if I ever find the time to incorporate Blackmoor in my Wilderlands campaign

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Havard:
Thanks Henrik!

My own campaign is set in Blackmoor. I don't plan on taking the party to the Wilderlands any time soon, but you never know what the players will come up with. I have found that simply deciding that the two settings are connected is inflencing the feel of the game though. I am trying to make it as much Sword and Sorcery as possible.

Havard

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mtbdm:
That is quite a cool map. If I were using Blackmoor on Mystarra, I'd definitely use that. I'm planning on tacking it onto the Wilderlands, though.

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Havard:
Eh?

This is Blackmoor and the Wilderlands. I'm simpl using Mystara as a backdrop for both of those settings.

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Treebore:
Initially, on my conglomerate world, where I have any setting I like that is only a continent or smaller, I was going to try and have the Wilderlands attached to the southern end of Aeroth and the Blackmoor lands attached to GH like it was, at one time.

But I like how this lays out. I think I'll just make these two a separate continent of their own.


James,

I "know" your familiar with the geography of Aeroth. Do you see a good way to link the map is this thread to Aeroth/DCC 35 Known World (for those of you who aren't familiar with it)?

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JamesMishler:
This looks terrible, thanks to Photobucket shrinking it, but it should give you the basic idea.

Note that the Known Realms compared to even Mystara is quite largish... but this works, for the most part. The Northlands are from my Known Realms map, the Lost Lands are quick and dirty guesstimates scribbled in paint.



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Treebore:
It sure looks workable. Did you clean this up before posting it over at Goodman? It seems that the one over at goodman looked cleaned up.

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JamesMishler:
This one is dreadful, but the original is small and dirty, anyway... it just gives the most general idea of the layout.

As for adding Erde, I'm afraid you are on your own... With fitting in Kara-Tur and enough space for the lands west of the Xulmec, I'm out of space in the northern hemisphere!



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[Havard]

Leadjunkie:
Link to the Goodman Games map... please?

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Treebore:
I could always rotate Erde around and have it in the Southern Hemisphere, and give it some company with Ravenloft and others.

Goodman map link:
http://www.broncosaurusrex.com/?f

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Korag:
You guys have too much time on your hands!

Thanks for entertaining me!

I'm planning on a new campaign soon, and have decided that since Blackmoor was the first fantasy campaign it will be the first and oldest part of the world we'll play in.
--
Andreas Davour
crawls the dungeons
once a week.

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Havard:

Sounds interesting! I haven't looked to closely at matching the timelines of Blackmoor and the Wilderlands, but I always assumed that the realms of the Wilderlands are ancient, while Blackmoor is a relatively young nation. I guess that means assuming that the present of Blackmoor is more or less the present in the WL books.

Let us know how things progress
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Blair Goatsblood:
With Blackmoor being a young but "advanced" nation, with the lack of slavery, technology, LG/LN alignment, I like the idea of it being part of the ancient past of the Wilderlands.

What if everything "went south," and Blackmoor was a post-apocalyptic region. To the south is the searing deserts of the valley of the ancients, with the feared city of the gods as well as patches of the glowing death and the occasional highly dangerous robot.

In the Blackmoor region itself, the southwest is home to a sprawling hellhole of a swamp, teeming with all sorts of bloated, oversized and mutated invertebrate, fishy, amphibians and reptilean inhabitants, especially the chaotic and evil froggish varieties...giant frogs, frog-human hybrids, hordes of Tsathar, as well as Slaad and Hezrou. The swamp holds a massive temple-city complex...the "City of the Frog" which houses and order of monks, many with obvious frog-like traits as well as the immortal priest-king, a bizarre ancient cyborg, all in thrall to Tsathogguas, who has an avatar dwelling in a massive cavern far below the City of the Frog.

To the Northwest is the Lands of the Egg...a region in thrall to something from outside this space and time, inhabited by mind-controlled minions with glowing eyes.

The wastelands of Blackoor hold the ruins of man cities, as well as the ancient wicked port of Mauz...city of Dragon and Rat cults, traders in slaves, ancient technology and magic items unearthed from the ruins.

The west is scattered with the cycloptean ziggurats of the Afridi...everburning pyres on the tops of them for the daily human sacrifices to Zugzul, whom himself dwells on top one of the mountains, a always smoldering volcano.

The north is the lands of the Skandiharians...savage and bloodthirsty ancestors of the Skandiks who worship the frost giant god Thyrm and whom revel in slaughter, human sacrifice, rapine, etc.

Travel through Blackmoor is hazardouus for many reasons, among them the bands of Afridi and Skandiharians, the many Orc kingdoms, wandering beastmen.

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Havard:
Blair,
I love your descriptions of the Egg, the Afridhi, the Skandahar and the Swamp! Especially the swamp; I'll be stealing that stuff!

Now, loving Blackmoor as much as I do, I don't really see the need to nuke it (yet). The description you provide would work just as well for the Valley of the Ancients. Thats what I'm using for my post apocalyptic high tech stuff...

Just a thought
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JamesMishler:
Here's a bit more work on the world map... this now incorporates:

Blackmoor-Era Skothar (mostly);
Wilderlands;
Known Realms;
Greyhawk;
Forgotten Realms;
Kara-Tur;
Al-Qadim;
Aihrde;
Known World (ca. 1983, minus the Isle of Dread);
An elven land from an old, if popular non-TSR supplement...;
Kalamar;
"Oriental" Kalamar (a land of my own devising); and, finally,
A mysterious island, used as the "Darklands" of the Known Realms, again which only RPG grognards might recognize... A No Prize to the first to identify the products the elven lands and island continent are from! The name of the island continent, from the book and on the (indecipherable) picture, is Mamaryl...



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Magoo:James, could you send me an hi-res version of your map (legare at gmail dot com) ? thanks !

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Havard:

Yeah, me too James, please

Its kinda hard to identify some of those worlds. And wasn't Ansalon in there earlier today?

I enjoy these maps though, cool stuff

PS: whats Aihrde?
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JamesMishler:
Havard,

Ansalon was in there earlier, then I decided against it. It just doesn't fit right, being such a small, small, small continent... plus it has a very specific history, pantheon, etc. And I don't ever envision using it in my own campaign.

For the same reason, I won't be adding in Athas; too specifically built around a Macguffin.

I might try to squeeze in the Birthright continent, but it is already tight, and the cultures there are already overrepresented with plenty of European-style lands.

As to the new small continent south of Malatra/Kara-Tur, Aihrde is the realm designed by Troll Lords (formerly Erde); to the west is the Known World (not Mystara... a variant Known World based only on the info present in X1, sans the Isle of Dread and Thanegioth Peninsula), and to the south of that is the Elf Hold (not the Elfquest version), which is from a certain non-TSR supplement from back in the day...

Maps will be e-mailed out tonight after I get home from work...
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Havard:
Thanks for the clarifications James!

I agreee on leaving Ansalon out. I had never realized how small it was compared to the other settings though! I like Krynn, but as you say, it doesnt fit very well with the other settings. Besides, if you included Ansalon, you really should throw in Taladas as well.
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Ronwit:
James, please include me on the list for these maps. They are impressive. I look forward to your professional efforts. ronwit [at] sbcglobal.net

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Treebore:
James,

If you were a woman I'd ask you to marry me.

If you still have my e-mail I would appreciate this since you have now finished my campaign world. With the exception of the mists for Ravenloft, or is that there and I haven't seen it yet?

Plus you have put a couple more than I thought would even fit, but since I own them as well, except your Kalamar, so I'll keep them.

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JamesMishler:
Here ya go! Everything and the kitchen sink! Well, not quite everything, but close... at least, everything that I want in this version of a campaign setting.

I was able to add in the Savage Coast setting, and there are some hints of other bits in there, too.

Kara-Tur is now the "Shadowed West" of the Known Realms and the "Unknown East" of the Forgotten Realms, at one and the same time. To the peoples of the Known World, Kara-Tur is known as "Ochalea," i.e., the "Land of Tea."

E-mails with a better, non-scrunched version will go out shortly...


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Havard:
Good stuff James! Thanks for the email

I especially liked the 'Trondheim' entry... :lol
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Thegrandoracle:
James, I would appreciate an emailed copy as well. Email is sage (at) astutestudios (dot) com

Thanks,

Kevin
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Havard:
Updated my map based on James' info:


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Ifuritasfan:
James,

you might want to create a mailing list or a cite to host that map. If possible, please include me on your email list for that map... It's nice.

If you have it in campaign cartographer format, even better.

Ifurita[at]comcast.net

thanks in advance
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Eltonrob:
Geeze, everybody's fantasy is as big as my English Vacation.
:roll:
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Arkanak:
If it is not too much trouble, could anyone please send me a copy of the final version of the wilderlands, mystara, realms, etc. map please. It would help my campaign greatly.

Thanks

Please send the high res map to arkane1[a]hotmail.com. Thanks for the help.


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Havard:
I assume you mean James' version of the map? Mine includes WL, Mystara and Blackmoor only, while James' version includes only a fraction of Mystara, but a range of other settings.

Havard
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ShaneG:
*bump*

ShaneG.
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IvidtheBowman:
For if you haven't seen it already:



*Or: Why the old pdfs at dtrpg are worth getting...*
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Markkuhl:
Could I get one of the non-scrunched maps emailed to me? marc.kuhl[a]gmail.com

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Ronwit:
Same here, please send me a copy of the map to ronwit[at]sbcglobal.net . ronwit.

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-Havard

[Havard]

Okay, that's the end of it

-Havard

[Rafael]

This is, more or less, the blueprint for my RK, too.

[Havard]

This is, more or less, the blueprint for my RK, too.

Cool.

It may please you then that I have a much nicer, revised version in the works 8)

-Havard