Dave Arneson's Hit Location System: Fixable?

[Havard]

The recent podcast about Supplement II made a bit of fun about the Hit Location rules. Of course, it is commonly known that Arneson himself didn't like them either, but simply wrote them because he was asked to do so by TSR.

I'm not a big fan of hit location rules in general, but both RuneQuest (Pre Mongoose) and Warhammer has them. Could the Hp from Blackmoor be "fixed"?

How would you do it?

-Havard

[Yaztromo]

I really love how this is done by "Blood Guts and Glory" http://www.gratisgames.webspace.virginme...0Glory.pdf but it takes quite a lot of work to reach that point, it's not a quick and easy fix...

[Vile]

Aftermath! Okay, maybe not, but we thought it was cool as teenagers because it had a "groin" location. If I wanted a workable hit location system I'd either go with RuneQuest 3E as-is or a simplified version.

[hedgehobbit]

I'm not a big fan of hit location rules in general, but both RuneQuest (Pre Mongoose) and Warhammer has them. Could the Hp from Blackmoor be "fixed"?

The early Runequest rules are a pretty close match to the rules in Blackmoor. The extra charts for rear/top/bottom attacks as well as the height vs height table were replaced in Runequest with DM judgement (the player rolled different types of dice when dealing with larger or smaller opponents forex). I really don't see how it could be simplified more without scrapping it entirely.

One of the main advantages of a hit location system is the easy ability to add partial armor coverage. However, with D&D to hit vs AC, you'd have to roll the hit location before rolling to hit which would be fairly tedious. It would work better with a hit + save system ala Dragons at Dawn or Adventures in Fantasy.

Finally, I can't see how Dave was forced to include these rules as he uses some aspects of it in his Adventures in Fantasy. I suspect (based solely on tales of Dave's play) that Dave just used common sense when actually running the game but when he tried to write down his thoughts it ended up the mess we see in Supplement 2. I get the same feeling from AiF; either he didn't use the rules as they were written or he was an absolute genius at doing math in his head.

[Havard]

I'm not a big fan of hit location rules in general, but both RuneQuest (Pre Mongoose) and Warhammer has them. Could the Hp from Blackmoor be "fixed"?

The early Runequest rules are a pretty close match to the rules in Blackmoor. The extra charts for rear/top/bottom attacks as well as the height vs height table were replaced in Runequest with DM judgement (the player rolled different types of dice when dealing with larger or smaller opponents forex). I really don't see how it could be simplified more without scrapping it entirely.

The comparisom to RuneQuest is interesting, especially with the quote from Steve Prerrin that Vile provided over at the OD&D Forum:

It looks like the link is even stronger, though according to this message from Steve Perrin on the RuneQuest Archives mailing list: http://rpgreview.net/pipermail/runeques ... 01941.html

Strictly speaking, D&D Greyhawk was the first d100 system because it
introduced thief skills, which at that time were rolled on a d100.

That's what we used as a basis when we decided to have RuneQuest have
one system for all types of characters.

Steve Perrin

Could it be that Perrin & Co made use of both Supplement I and II when they were creating RuneQuest? Borrowing the skill rules from Supplement I and the Hit Location rules from Supplement II?

One of the main advantages of a hit location system is the easy ability to add partial armor coverage. However, with D&D to hit vs AC, you'd have to roll the hit location before rolling to hit which would be fairly tedious. It would work better with a hit + save system ala Dragons at Dawn or Adventures in Fantasy.

Good point. Another idea I thought of was to scrap the idea of HP per location and rather have a threshold where locations only matter if say maximum damage is rolled. In those cases the limb could be damaged unless covered by armor, in which case the armor is destroyed (on that location) or something like that.

Finally, I can't see how Dave was forced to include these rules as he uses some aspects of it in his Adventures in Fantasy. I suspect (based solely on tales of Dave's play) that Dave just used common sense when actually running the game but when he tried to write down his thoughts it ended up the mess we see in Supplement 2. I get the same feeling from AiF; either he didn't use the rules as they were written or he was an absolute genius at doing math in his head.

I didn't mean to suggest that he was forced to, but rather that TSR (Tim Kask? Gary?) asked Dave to include a Hit Location system for Supplement II. Dave wrote one and apparently even play tested it (rare in those days), but though he submitted it to TSR, he didn't actually like it.

Hand-waving and making up rules on the fly were hallmarks of that era of gaming, but I do think those old wargamers did take things like probabilities quite seriously. Obviously I am speculating at this time.


-Havard

[finarvyn]

I think that the D&D hit point system is a feature that makes a game feel like D&D, and the hit location option changed all of that for me. We tried it a few times early on and quickly abandoned it because it made combat way too lethal. (Interesing that one of my players later switched to RQ; guess he was a bigger fan than I knew at the time.)

If I wanted to "fix" the system I'd say ignore it except on a critical hit (natural 20). On a critical hit you could impact a single body part instead of doing double damage (I always play that a natural 20 gives double damage).

[Havard]

I think that the D&D hit point system is a feature that makes a game feel like D&D, and the hit location option changed all of that for me. We tried it a few times early on and quickly abandoned it because it made combat way too lethal. (Interesing that one of my players later switched to RQ; guess he was a bigger fan than I knew at the time.)

If I wanted to "fix" the system I'd say ignore it except on a critical hit (natural 20). On a critical hit you could impact a single body part instead of doing double damage (I always play that a natural 20 gives double damage).

I think that the Hit Location system is a very interesting rule from a historical point of view. OTOH, I would never use it as written myself. I think linking it to a critical rule like the way you are suggesting here would make sense. I would ignore the Hit Points per Location bit and instead have something like double damage if that body part is unarmored or whatever. Perhaps some chance to render legs/arms useless? (save to avoid)?

-Havard

[Havard]

I posted the following on Google+:

Just got to the part in "Blackmoor" that describes hit locations, and my brain melted. I love the idea of hit locations and disabling an opponent's arm so he/she/it cannot shoot missiles and such, but the thought of having to adjudicate hit locations with every single monster I have is just too much. Similarly, the random determination of where an attack strikes (appropriately) seems arbitrary. The whole point of having hit locations is to have "called shots." The ranged attacker attempts a headshot. The melee attacker attempts to sever the sword arm.

Has any body tried an alternate system, or had success with the included one?

I would limit this to critical hits (natural 20) only. Save to avoid severing limb. In Blackmoor, mechanical prothesis should be available so it wouldnt ruin your character. Just an idea 

Lets see:
1) Hit Locations are only rolled for if a natural 20 is rolled on the attack roll
2) If location is not covered by armor, then the blow does double damage.
3) If the location is covered by armor, that armor is now destroyed (possibly fixable, at least for magical armor)
4) If the damage dealt is equal to or more than the hits on that location, then the location is temporarily useless. Save to avoid permanently loosing limb.

Lost limbs should be easily replaced by mechanical protheses at Blackmoor University. However there may be some catch, perhaps becoming more susceptible to mind control by the Egg of Coot? :twisted:

-Havard