Elves as a Young Race

[Havard]

Now, Rafe's campaign has a somewhat different take on this, but IMC elves of Blackmoor are a relatively young race. This would make them very different from elves of most other settings. In most settings, elves is the race that has been around forever, the keepers of all the stories and all the secrets. In my campaign the elves have "only" been around for a thousand years, and most of that time they have spent hiding in their forests. Their few encounters with the outside world have been traumatic. At the same time, I think they would still have some of their youthful curiousity intact.

Using this assumption, elves of Blackmoor would be more comparable to Tolkien's elves in the 2nd Age, where they are still exploring the world and learning their own abilities rather than the dying race we often see in so many copies of Tolkien's late 3rd Age elves.

That is not to say that elves are innocent. They have suffered the division among their race about 500 years ago (still IMC), and with the Rise of the Egg, more than half of their woodlands were permanently flooded, killing thousands.

How would the assumption that elves are a young race be a way to present them in a different light from other settings?

-Havard

[Rafael]

The problem is, the shism between the elves, like so many post-Arneson additions, is not reallly thought through:

If we postulate that the BM timeline is absolute - meaning that everything that makes the setting happened within the timeframe of a thousand years, we have the problem with Elven lifespans. - Why does nobody remember specifics, if things happened just at grandpa's time?

The only answer that really lines up with everything, is to postulate a LONG history of the setting before the beginning of mankind's kingdom/BM.

This lines up pretty nicely with what I really perceive as Arneson's main source for fantasy background: Tolkien's Silmarilion.

Not going to write it out, but I tend to think of Robert of Geneva as some Isildur-like character.

[Havard]

Well, this thread does suggest a different approach.

And usually there is more than one answer to things. The way I have things set up, the schism between the elves doesnt even happen at Grandpa's time. It happens only one This suggests one thing. Elves know what happened. Perhaps not so much the younger generation, but the elder elves know. They might not know the whole picture, because it was a confusing time, but they know more than they are letting on. Why all the mystery then? Simple: They dont want to talk about it. The schism is a big painful memory that most elves are trying to shut out. The younger generation is afraid to ask questions, but have inherited the scepticism towards other races, which Uther and Menander were trying to mend.

Of course what the Westryn went on and did afterwards is known only to that race.

I think the analogy to Isildur is interesting, but IMO Uther's era is not that much different. I see Blackmoor as a young Gondor rather than at the end of the 3rd Age. So I agree that the Silmarillion is relevant, but as to cover the entire Blackmoor Era, not just its past.

Let me stress that I don't claim this setup to be more correct than other takes, but I think it is an interesting one to explore. Elves in most settings resemble the elves of the Lord of the Rings. The elves of the Silmarillion are different, which would give the Blackmoor campaign a different color.

-Havard

[Rafael]

I think the reason for this can be found in the FFC - there was only one major Elven PC (Menander Ithamis), and the Elves basically acted as Deus Ex Machina to win Castle Blackmoor back, similar to some stuff we see in the Shannara novel series.

So, the background for the Elves was not prevalent in the game, except for a very small part.

Now, when the setting was advanced 30 years for the DA modules, the authors chose to establish that friendship between the Elves and the humans that in the FFC time had been mainly a footnote.

So, this is why this discrepancy was established - the Willow Queen of the Westryn is really more akin to the Queen of Norns from Tad Williams' Osten Ard series than anything else.


But this, really just as a comment: Ask Jared about some of the specifics; IIRC he told me once that he was in charge of the Elven arc in the MMRPG, so he probably had the biggest insight into the matter.


Also, don't get all defensive when I am not playing along 100%!
Your approach is as valid as mine, or anyone else's.


For further fleshing out your vision of the Elves, here's a hint:

Ringlo Hall is really a Tolkien reference, the Ringlo being the river leading to the city of Edelhond.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Edhellond





I have gone there in my campaigns, and the MERP stuff on Edelhond is basically what I use for Ringlo Hall.


If I ever rerun The Redwood Scar, I will post some notes on this.

[Rafael]

Ah, I found it:

There are a few adventures that are easy to run with Elves as a "younger race", one, being the prominent "Broken Tree Inn",
one of my all time favorite adventures, the other one being a compilationcalled "Ghost of the Southern Anduin", which was created for MERP. - Those are not about Elves themselves, but may help to get people interested in exploring the Elven forest further.


Just in case somebody is interested in what I did...

[aldarron]

Side note first: I'm not sure the elf schism thing is post Arnesonian. There is an almost identical Elven split in Arneson's write up of Izmer.

back to topic.

Young elves would have an unusual origin and ownership narrative. The elves must feel like newcomers and be a lot less possesive, and that is very different from the usual narrative of the elves being part of the land for eons. There should also be more of a frontier energy to them and a sense of mission that elves typically don't have and maybe a sense of guilt over displacing nature or some earlier inhabitants, much as middle class americans "feel bad" about thier ancestors having cut down the forest and killed the indians, but don't have any intention of moving back to europe.

[Havard]

I think the reason for this can be found in the FFC - there was only one major Elven PC (Menander Ithamis), and the Elves basically acted as Deus Ex Machina to win Castle Blackmoor back, similar to some stuff we see in the Shannara novel series.

I dont think they were a Deus Ex Machina. Rather I suspect that this was a scenario played out. Various players controlled the elves over the years. The idea of using water hoses of holy water to attack the forces of the Egg sure sounds like a player idea!

So, the background for the Elves was not prevalent in the game, except for a very small part.

Well, in true Old School, background is usually more assumed than defined. I like defining things though

Now, when the setting was advanced 30 years for the DA modules, the authors chose to establish that friendship between the Elves and the humans that in the FFC time had been mainly a footnote.

This is not how I read the DA modules at all. Sure there is tension between the races, but Uther's friendship with Menander has renewed the alliance of 30 years earlier.

Also, don't get all defensive when I am not playing along 100%!
Your approach is as valid as mine, or anyone else's.

Glad you noticed that
Actually I wasnt being defensive, but I wanted to steer the discussion away from "what Arneson would have wanted", since that would have taken us nowhere. Also, I wanted to keep it open enough for more people to participate

For further fleshing out your vision of the Elves, here's a hint:

Ringlo Hall is really a Tolkien reference, the Ringlo being the river leading to the city of Edelhond.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Edhellond

I have gone there in my campaigns, and the MERP stuff on Edelhond is basically what I use for Ringlo Hall.

Cool, I will have to read up more on this. IMC I have described Ringlo Hall similar to Elrond's Hall in Rivendell. I see the Cumasti elves similar to Elrond's elves, while the Westryn are a much more sinister version of the elves of Lorien. Although Galadriel was also fairly scary.

Side note first: I'm not sure the elf schism thing is post Arnesonian. There is an almost identical Elven split in Arneson's write up of Izmer.

Certainly not post Arneson. But I think it goes further back than the Izmer writeup too. The DA modules also hint at strange things happening in the lands of the elves in the west.

back to topic.

Young elves would have an unusual origin and ownership narrative. The elves must feel like newcomers and be a lot less possesive, and that is very different from the usual narrative of the elves being part of the land for eons. There should also be more of a frontier energy to them and a sense of mission that elves typically don't have and maybe a sense of guilt over displacing nature or some earlier inhabitants, much as middle class americans "feel bad" about thier ancestors having cut down the forest and killed the indians, but don't have any intention of moving back to europe.

This is excellent input! This different attitude makes alot of sense, and it would help me make the elves of Blackmoor feel more unique compared to other settings. Probably they would not be too keen to "displace nature" given elven relationship with that particular element, but in general terms I agree with you. Although sort of newcomers (at least by their own standards), the elves have been significantly pushed back mainly by the Egg and would be determined to counter attack once they have regained their strength. There will be no LotR-ish talk of "abandoning these shores".



-Havard

[Rafael]

Glad you noticed that
Actually I wasnt being defensive, but I wanted to steer the discussion away from "what Arneson would have wanted", since that would have taken us nowhere. Also, I wanted to keep it open enough for more people to participate

*Snorts.*

My revenge is coming, viking!

The Ninjas vs Vikings movie was only made because the Spaniards were busy beating the Spartans that day!

Cool, I will have to read up more on this. IMC I have described Ringlo Hall similar to Elrond's Hall in Rivendell. I see the Cumasti elves similar to Elrond's elves, while the Westryn are a much more sinister version of the elves of Lorien. Although Galadriel was also fairly scary.

I will bite my own butt because this is really the info I use to make my own games more awesome,
but you should sooo check MERP, especially the Ardor supplement.

[aldarron]

I will bite my own butt because this is really the info I use to make my own games more awesome,
but you should sooo check MERP, especially the Ardor supplement.

Second that. The MERP books are just amazing efforts of blending scholarship and craftsmanship. They are extremely cool just to read.