Blackmoor in the year 500

[aldarron]

...... I am working on a few assumptions:
1) Blackmoor was founded shortly after the forming of the Thonian Empire (Great Kingdom). Before that there was probably no Thonian settlers in the North. So I would assume it would take a few centuries to get even a decent Thonian population up there.
2) The North saw a massive expansion in population from ca year 600 after Kargas made his disoveries of the magical properties of the North

I think the population continued to grow after Kargas, particularly as new areas formerly under elven control were expended into, but I don't see it as an explosion in population. The most notable influx was that of magic users and that surely only numbered in the hundreds.

3) The New Lands, Outlands and Dismal Swamp was settled during the FFC era. Even Glendover/Jenins Land was settled during Fant's Reign.

Outlands perhaps, dismal swamp yes, but I think the "new lands" were probably inhabited earlier and later somewhat abandoned. Given all the peasant revolts that took place there shortly after the heroes moved in, I think there must have still been some settlements there, kinda wild west like.

....
Interesting that you have the Bloody Duke rule before the Dog Duke. In my Rulers of Blackmoor writeup I have Raddan Goss as the Bloody Duke, but looking back I think that he could not be the original Bloody Duke. IIRC the FFC states that there were several Bloody Dukes, so Goss could well have also been referred to as a Bloody Duke, but I like your idea of having the original Bloody Duke rule Blackmoor before the Dog Duke.

There is only one Bloody Duke referenced in the FFC. He is the same Bloody Duke about which a good deal of info is given in DoCBM. Here is what I have in my timeline:

471 – 497
The Bloody Duke, a sadist and architectural megalomaniac, reigns in Blackmoor Castle. He designs and builds a vast, multi-level dungeon beneath castle Blackmoor - connecting to natural cavers and some say to even older, deeper passages. (CS:116, DoCBM:184,185 “hundreds of years”; 4eTFC:158; FFC80:21, date assumed to be related to construction of the Temple of Id, which is known to connect by tunnel to Blackmoor dungeons)

484 –
Construction of the Temple of the Id. (FFC80:18, DoCBM:146 ”Worship of Id started shortly before the year 500.” date based on the supposition that the temple was not operational for more than a few decades )

497 –
The Bloody Duke killed in his own dungeon by 13 escaped prisoners. (DoCBM:184,185)

500 –
Destruction of the Temple of Id by a combined force of humans and elves. (FFC80:18) Treachery within the human faction creates a deep rift among the elves. A faction of elves vows to turn their backs on humans and all civilization, becoming the Westryn. Uhlmar, king of the elves, dies, but not before cursing the Westryn to be forever childless. (Havard, DAB 14,17)

Okay, it is key to notice that the Bloody Duke built Blackmoor dungeon and Blackmoor dungeon is connected by tunnel to the dungeon of the Temple of the Id. In fact, in DoCBm there are Id cultists still in Blackmoor dungeon, and in the FFC there's all those devil fountains etc. It follows then that the Bloody Duke was openly an Id cultist who supported the expansion of the Id cult and Temple. Perhaps he built the temple in the first place.

I also note that your description of elven history seems to be close to how I see it.

Yep. I think you did a great job with the elven material.

I dont have a definite stance on exact population figures either though. I do agree that the population could well have risen and fallen with the major wars and other dramatic events through the centuries.

One more thing to take into account: The Temple does seem to have been a significant threat to the humans and perhaps even the combined human and elf forces of the North. If Blackmoor was at its Age of Glory at this time, what sort of resources would the Temple have had access to to pose such a threat?

-Havard

Money, state support, and a zealous evangelical following.

[Havard]

I think the population continued to grow after Kargas, particularly as new areas formerly under elven control were expended into, but I don't see it as an explosion in population. The most notable influx was that of magic users and that surely only numbered in the hundreds.

Magic Users alone yes. I sort of envisioned them as bringing along servants, body guards, mazons to construct their towers, camp followers, prostitutes, con artists, thieves etc, basically a kind of gold rush type effect caused by Kargas' discovery.

Outlands perhaps, dismal swamp yes, but I think the "new lands" were probably inhabited earlier and later somewhat abandoned. Given all the peasant revolts that took place there shortly after the heroes moved in, I think there must have still been some settlements there, kinda wild west like.

Certainly possible. They would have to deal with a much more aggressive generation of Peshwah though, in addition to dragons, giants and other monsters in the region.

I actually even see the province of Marban to be much less developed in this era as well, so the Empire would be stretching out thin in the North.

But as I said, there are multiple interpretations.

There is only one Bloody Duke referenced in the FFC. He is the same Bloody Duke about which a good deal of info is given in DoCBM.

You may be right about that. I don't know if I saw the reference to multiple Bloody Dukes somewhere or maybe I just dreamt that up. My original idea was that Raddan Goss would be the Bloody Duke, but I am pretty much abandoning that idea.

Here is what I have in my timeline:

471 – 497
The Bloody Duke, a sadist and architectural megalomaniac, reigns in Blackmoor Castle. He designs and builds a vast, multi-level dungeon beneath castle Blackmoor - connecting to natural cavers and some say to even older, deeper passages. (CS:116, DoCBM:184,185 “hundreds of years”; 4eTFC:158; FFC80:21, date assumed to be related to construction of the Temple of Id, which is known to connect by tunnel to Blackmoor dungeons)

484 –
Construction of the Temple of the Id. (FFC80:18, DoCBM:146 ”Worship of Id started shortly before the year 500.” date based on the supposition that the temple was not operational for more than a few decades )

497 –
The Bloody Duke killed in his own dungeon by 13 escaped prisoners. (DoCBM:184,185)

500 –
Destruction of the Temple of Id by a combined force of humans and elves. (FFC80:18) Treachery within the human faction creates a deep rift among the elves. A faction of elves vows to turn their backs on humans and all civilization, becoming the Westryn. Uhlmar, king of the elves, dies, but not before cursing the Westryn to be forever childless. (Havard, DAB 14,17)

Okay, it is key to notice that the Bloody Duke built Blackmoor dungeon and Blackmoor dungeon is connected by tunnel to the dungeon of the Temple of the Id. In fact, in DoCBm there are Id cultists still in Blackmoor dungeon, and in the FFC there's all those devil fountains etc. It follows then that the Bloody Duke was openly an Id cultist who supported the expansion of the Id cult and Temple. Perhaps he built the temple in the first place.

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing! I never saw the Bloody Duke as an Id Cultist. Then again, I haven't explored this character much yet.

My understanding of DoCBM is that many layers of the Dungeon greatly predate the Thonian Civilisation. The earliest caves were excavated by the Sar-Aigu afterall.

It seems like the Bloody Duke probably did the work that connected the modern Castle with the deeper caves of more ancient times. It is possible that he dug the tunnels to the Temple of Id, but those tunnels could also have been dug from the side of the Temple without his knowledge.

One of the reasons I did not think of the Bloody Duke as a follower of Id is that his madness has no subtlety about it. I see the Id Cult as a secret group, infiltrating noble society with the lawful rulers being oblivious of its influence. OTOH, I like the idea that the Bloody Duke's madness could have been induced by the forces of Id. Perhaps he was indeed a follower, but that he delved so deeply into the mysteries of the cult that he went completely insane. As you see this idea is growing on me even as I write this.

For purposes of this campaign, I would prefer to move the death of the Bloody Duke back a bit. From what I can tell there is no exact date for his death in the published material. It would be nice to have perhaps as much as a decade with the rule of the Dog Duke before the Temple is destroyed.

Yep. I think you did a great job with the elven material.

Thanks!

One more thing to take into account: The Temple does seem to have been a significant threat to the humans and perhaps even the combined human and elf forces of the North. If Blackmoor was at its Age of Glory at this time, what sort of resources would the Temple have had access to to pose such a threat?

Money, state support, and a zealous evangelical following.

This is something we need to explore further. Who are the followers of Id? I think alot of the Year 500 followers of the cult if Id are Thonians. As I suggested in my writeup of the Dog Duke, the cult may have had an influence even within the highest circles of the Thonian Empire. Adding to that list the Bloody Duke certainly helps explain funding. They would have had the resources to amass an army though. Monsters would have been a part of it of course, but perhaps more humans too? Maybe Skandaharian and Peshwa mercenaries? Picts/Valemen?

Anyway, great input all around. This kind of stuff gives me alot to think about!


-Havard

[aldarron]

I think the population continued to grow after Kargas, particularly as new areas formerly under elven control were expended into, but I don't see it as an explosion in population. The most notable influx was that of magic users and that surely only numbered in the hundreds.

Magic Users alone yes. I sort of envisioned them as bringing along servants, body guards, mazons to construct their towers, camp followers, prostitutes, con artists, thieves etc, basically a kind of gold rush type effect caused by Kargas' discovery.

Outlands perhaps, dismal swamp yes, but I think the "new lands" were probably inhabited earlier and later somewhat abandoned. Given all the peasant revolts that took place there shortly after the heroes moved in, I think there must have still been some settlements there, kinda wild west like.

Certainly possible. They would have to deal with a much more aggressive generation of Peshwah though, in addition to dragons, giants and other monsters in the region.

I actually even see the province of Marban to be much less developed in this era as well, so the Empire would be stretching out thin in the North.

But as I said, there are multiple interpretations.

Yeah, we're prolly not far apart on the population situation.

My understanding of DoCBM is that many layers of the Dungeon greatly predate the Thonian Civilisation. The earliest caves were excavated by the Sar-Aigu afterall.

DoCBm is a bit schizophrenic when it comes to the history and I think that's due to too many cooks stirring the pot. As I see it the first 10 levels at least were built and/or expanded on orders of the Bloody Duke. At some point in construction, the lower Sar Aigu levels were discovered.

It seems like the Bloody Duke probably did the work that connected the modern Castle with the deeper caves of more ancient times. It is possible that he dug the tunnels to the Temple of Id, but those tunnels could also have been dug from the side of the Temple without his knowledge.

Building a connect tunnel would be a pretty significant undertaking. I think it makes the most sense to assume it was all part of one great construction event.

One of the reasons I did not think of the Bloody Duke as a follower of Id is that his madness has no subtlety about it. I see the Id Cult as a secret group, infiltrating noble society with the lawful rulers being oblivious of its influence. OTOH, I like the idea that the Bloody Duke's madness could have been induced by the forces of Id. Perhaps he was indeed a follower, but that he delved so deeply into the mysteries of the cult that he went completely insane. As you see this idea is growing on me even as I write this.

For purposes of this campaign, I would prefer to move the death of the Bloody Duke back a bit. From what I can tell there is no exact date for his death in the published material. It would be nice to have perhaps as much as a decade with the rule of the Dog Duke before the Temple is destroyed.

I think the Id cult is a home grown Blackmoor development. After all, the Temple of the Id is in Blackmoor. I can definetly see it spreading south and gaining influence in the Thonian empire. In fact, one interpretation that seems logical and I like a lot is that the empire grows increasingly annoyed and alarmed at the growth in influence and power of the cult, and takes advantage of the death of the Bloody Duke to appoint Bruadaire (the Dog Duke) and send him to the northern Marches specifically under the instructions to stamp out this insidious cult.