Blackmoor Timeline Project

[aldarron]

Dunno, Aldy, have you even cared to look into the LFC timeline?

The thing is, you will eventually end up with something like the one I did two years ago already,
just that it seems you need to rethink every single step I already did by then. :wink:

Of course, I made some game-related changes, but they were small compared to the overall work I put into pillaging all BM canon.

(LFC Events > LFC member ideas > DA Series > FFC > Havard's investigations outside of the LFC > Forum stuff > BM d20 series.)

">" meaning "more important than", in this case.

Yep, that's a massive thing of beauty Rafe. Trouble is I dunno what's what. Is there a version where you list sources? I'd love to know where stuff comes from.

The other thing is I'm taking the "other" approach to Blackmoor. Basically as we've discussed Blackmoor is either a Mystara setting, in which case the DA series is the definitive and the rest needs to conform to it, or its a Dave Arneson setting, in which FFC/Arneson/Original Players are the definitive source. The overlap between the two is huge but not complete. In particular DA 4 is way off the mark of what Arneson envisioned and I steer as clear of that awful thing to the extent I can. No harm in picking non contradictory names and such from it, though.

Basically - FFC > Gabage Pits > Original Player recollections > Supplement II > BM d20 series > DA1 > Havard's investigations > my crazy idears

Even so, most of the timelines - say from 800 to about 1010 - should pretty much match, aside from some DA4 and DA3 stuff. I think.

[Rafael]

Thanks man! Would you mind if we worked on my timeline together at some point? I'm planning some revisions to it some time soon.

Basically, the main sources were Zimriel's timeline, WL Players Guide by Necromancers and Supplement II stuff,
as well as The Wizards Cabal and DA 4.

However, I smoothed a lot of stuff based on my ideas of world realism.

Like, would a king really keep his seat above an orc-infested dungeon? Would people really live in the North if there was war all the time? - Also, based on ideas by Havard, I set the "Red Wizards" in BMs past, rather than its present.

Mainly, which comes through in the game more than in the list,
the conflict between Thonia and BM is strictly political, not the usual good vs bad stuff.

[Havard]

Aldarron, I think that your estimation of the DA modules is unreasonably harsh. The references to Mystara are limited to the introductiory sections of each module. Consider that even Greyhawk fans use the DA modules to detail Greyhawk's Blackmoor. David Ross/Zimriel is IMO one of the Blackmoor scholars I respect the most and even though he concluded that Blackmoor should be its own world, he worked on a combination of the DA modules and the FFC as well as some correspondence with Arneson himself. I think it is pretty useful to compare the DA modules to the D20 line to find out what was added by Dustin Clingman, Jeff Quinn and the others at ZGG.

Just my 2 copper pieces.

-Havard

[aldarron]

Aldarron, I think that your estimation of the DA modules is unreasonably harsh. The references to Mystara are limited to the introductiory sections of each module. Consider that even Greyhawk fans use the DA modules to detail Greyhawk's Blackmoor

Heh, it is harsh with respect to DA4 in particular, but only in terms of it being "original" Blackmorian. Nothing wrong with it, or the others as adventures per se. Ritchie was a pretty good writer - no complaints there. And don't misunderstand me regarding Mystara. I think it is pretty cool how Mystara grew organically from the world of D&D. My old campaign was based out of Specularum. My issue with DA4 is two fold. First the image of the Duchy of Ten is radically different from the admittedly limited info present in the FFC, and second Arneson himself was less than happy with it and by his own admission, had virtually no input in it. If the DA series is the starting point, then it hardly matters who wrote what, but in trying to flesh out an FFC based Blackmoor with later material, well, I don't recognize Ritchie as having the same authority as Arneson, or any of the players, so I don't put any more or any less stock in his ideas than any other fan created material.

David Ross/Zimriel is IMO one of the Blackmoor scholars I respect the most and even though he concluded that Blackmoor should be its own world, he worked on a combination of the DA modules and the FFC as well as some correspondence with Arneson himself. I think it is pretty useful to compare the DA modules to the D20 line to find out what was added by Dustin Clingman, Jeff Quinn and the others at ZGG.

Just my 2 copper pieces.

Absolutely. Ross work is really thorough and I hope he will join in the discussions here some day. Of course I worked off his timeline by double checking all his sources and comparing dates to TWC. That's why I'm quite sure he got those dates for Ra-All wrong. Even if he was working off a "present" of 1025 per the DA series "50 years ago" is 975 not 985 and there's no reason to think the "present" in the FFC is anything except 1000-1005. There's also no clear reason why the 2nd coot invasion forces other events from the real year 1973 into a new game year (998). There's no evidence for that in the FFC and he gives no other source.

[aldarron]

Thanks man! Would you mind if we worked on my timeline together at some point? I'm planning some revisions to it some time soon.

Basically, the main sources were Zimriel's timeline, WL Players Guide by Necromancers and Supplement II stuff,
as well as The Wizards Cabal and DA 4.

However, I smoothed a lot of stuff based on my ideas of world realism.

Like, would a king really keep his seat above an orc-infested dungeon? Would people really live in the North if there was war all the time? - Also, based on ideas by Havard, I set the "Red Wizards" in BMs past, rather than its present.

Mainly, which comes through in the game more than in the list,
the conflict between Thonia and BM is strictly political, not the usual good vs bad stuff.

Cool! and yeah I'd love to help out!

[Rafael]

VERY nice. We might have to wait a bit for that - basically, after the end of the current episode, the timeline will come to a sort of halt. :twisted:

Then, we can work on all the BM stuff for the entirety of Episode III. (I just don't want to give too much about that away yet.)

[Havard]

Heh, it is harsh with respect to DA4 in particular, but only in terms of it being "original" Blackmorian. Nothing wrong with it, or the others as adventures per se. Ritchie was a pretty good writer - no complaints there. And don't misunderstand me regarding Mystara. I think it is pretty cool how Mystara grew organically from the world of D&D. My old campaign was based out of Specularum. My issue with DA4 is two fold. First the image of the Duchy of Ten is radically different from the admittedly limited info present in the FFC, and second Arneson himself was less than happy with it and by his own admission, had virtually no input in it. If the DA series is the starting point, then it hardly matters who wrote what, but in trying to flesh out an FFC based Blackmoor with later material, well, I don't recognize Ritchie as having the same authority as Arneson, or any of the players, so I don't put any more or any less stock in his ideas than any other fan created material.

If you are talking about DA4 only, then I am more inclined to agree with you since Arneson clearly expressed some dislike about some of the decisions made there. Although he never said so, I am pretty sure that this was directed at the decision to make Ten occupied by the Afridhi and completely leaving out the character 'Ran of Ah Foo'.

I agree that if you are looking for pure Arnesonian content, then the FFC trumps the DA modules, but the elements included to connect Blackmoor to Mystara in the DA modules are really easy to identify. Beyond those elements, I believe that the description of Blackmoor is very true to Arneson's notes. Comparing the DA modules to the D20 line, you can see that the D20 line is pretty much an exact copy of DA content, with elements added to make Blackmoor fit with D&D 3.5 content. Alot of information from the DA modules was not brought over to 3E, but I believe much of that was due to lack of space rather than anything else. So the DA modules are a good way to get an understanding of what Blackmoor was like without the 3E baggage. DA1 in particular is a gold mine.

Comparing the FFC and the DA modules is also a matter of taste. I enjoy reading the FFC, but when using it for an actual campaign, I prefer filtering out many of the in-jokes, puns and references to players rather than characters. The DA modules pretty much did that for me, and also structured the Blackmoor content in a way I think Arneson would have liked Bill Owen/Judges Guild to do when he sent them his manuscripts for the FFC.

Absolutely. Ross work is really thorough and I hope he will join in the discussions here some day. Of course I worked off his timeline by double checking all his sources and comparing dates to TWC. That's why I'm quite sure he got those dates for Ra-All wrong. Even if he was working off a "present" of 1025 per the DA series "50 years ago" is 975 not 985 and there's no reason to think the "present" in the FFC is anything except 1000-1005. There's also no clear reason why the 2nd coot invasion forces other events from the real year 1973 into a new game year (998). There's no evidence for that in the FFC and he gives no other source.

I have been in some contact with Ross over the years, but havent been able to get him to come over here so far. Hopefully one day though. You make an interesting point about the second Coot invasion. Interestingly though, the D20 line chose to use Ross' version.

-Havard

[aldarron]

[DA1 in particular is a gold mine.

Comparing the FFC and the DA modules is also a matter of taste. I enjoy reading the FFC, but when using it for an actual campaign, I prefer filtering out many of the in-jokes, puns and references to players rather than characters. The DA modules pretty much did that for me, and also structured the Blackmoor content in a way I think Arneson would have liked Bill Owen/Judges Guild to do when he sent them his manuscripts for the FFC.

DA1 is fascinating and I'm sure you are right that a lot of Arneson went into it. Exactly what, I dunno. I have doubts he had any input on the time travel bits, but maybe someday we'll know more about that.

I have been in some contact with Ross over the years, but havent been able to get him to come over here so far. Hopefully one day though.

Yeah, it would be very interesting to know what Arneson may have told him in correspondence. There's also a dead link in his references that seems to have been to notes from an original player.

You make an interesting point about the second Coot invasion.
Interestingly though, the D20 line chose to use Ross' version.

-Havard

They should have taken a closer look at Ross's notes before they copied his timeline...

Anywho... back to the OP - any more thoughts regarding the dating of the crash of the Beagle? (I should probably work that Avian ship into the timeline too).

[aldarron]

Impressive!
David Ross' work is indeed outstanding. If you compare Ross' timeline with the one in the D20 sourcebook, you will see that even Ross' typos are carried over... .

I really need to buy one of those.

Okay, got the 4e Campaign Sourcebook and the d20 softcover Players Guide together for the ridiculously low total cost of less than $12.00 from Troll and Toad.

Man alive Havard, you were'nt kidding about them copying Ross's timeline. Its abridged and some stuff added but even the math and spelling mistakes and unsourced stuff like the battle of "Lake Berne" is in there, at a very inconvenient date, but I'll make it work.

One thing particularly annoying is they copied over Ross speculation that "the earldom of Vestfold eliminated" in 1001. I know that Ross was probably thinking that if there's a co-regent running Vestfold there must not be an earldom, but that's nonsense. The "regents" must have all had royal titles, that wouldn't have disappeared just because they formed a council. There certainly is not anything in GoPD (the only source Ross sites) to suggest that titles have been stripped, quite the opposite in fact.

Maybe I can think of something to make it workable....

[Greg]

The kingdom of the Elves stretches across the North, from the foothills of the Goblins Kush in the west to the Barbarian hills of Rhun in the east. (PG:197)

What is the PG source cited here? Is it the "WL Players Guide by Necromancers" that you referenced toward the end of this thread? Is that one of the Wilderlands publications? Which one is it and when was it published?