11-23-2013, 10:41 AM
Continued:
Robsconley:
This graphic is how I always understood the two combined.
The river running through the plains of Hak doesn't have a corresponding river on the other side so I would solve that by having extend a little ways into Map 3 and end.
Originally (1980) I did this by taking original map 3 and ran a photocopy at half size. (four sheets or so taped together) and aligning it with the blackmoor map.
The left edge of blackmoor to the start of the valley of the ancients aligns perfectly with the left edge of Map 3 to the end of the valley ancients. Given that old judges guild did these maps by making a master and then having a printer shoot it with a camera I suspect something similar was done in the first place.
http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/ ... stwild.jpg (link broken)
Enjoy
Rob Conley
********************************
Havard:
Thanks for your feedback Rob!
I guess the main difference between our two versions is that I moved the Wilderlands a little to the southwest to make room for the (slightly modified) DA maps and the Great Glacier. Unless the Great Glacier is supposed to be the Tiny Glacier or block the path of the Afridhi from entering Blackmoor I felt the need to make some room for it.
Another thing: I have extended some of the countries/regions quite a bit. Especially Elphand, Viridistan and Ghinor have been extended considerably and the two first have been given access to a sea to the west. How does this fit with the overall setting?
How do people feel about the size of Karak? Does it seem right? Should Thonia have access to the Wilderlands Sea? Or would that suggest that they would have a stronger influence on the Wilderlands than they do?
Just a couple of things that I had to consider when making my map.
Havard
*************************
JamesMishler:
Havard,
Excellent work! I think that your solution works best when adding together Wilderlands, Blackmoor, AND Mystara. It takes the needs of all three settings and makes them fit with minimal kludginess. The only issue, as you mention, is the Great Glacier, and that is supposed to be more or less unnatural in extent, anyhoo...
Another thing: I have extended some of the countries/regions quite a bit. Especially Elphand, Viridistan and Ghinor have been extended considerably and the two first have been given access to a sea to the west. How does this fit with the overall setting?
Viridistan definitely does not extend that far west; no big deal. If you want to make it closer to canon, split it off about where the "t" is, and points west should be labeled "Demi-Giant Kingdoms," an extension of the demi-giant kingdoms you've placed on Belissaria (in Mystara, an isolated colony thereof, which works with the giant kingdoms I put on the Dawn Territories at this time in my Blackmoor timeline).
You might want to split the Elphand Lands in twain, as well... the west of that region is known as the "Land of Beasts," and is a "Lost Worlds" region, complete with sabertooth tigers, mammoths, and even dinosaurs. That would be why the Afridhi didn't go south, either...
The Desert Lands actually do extend that far west, and further, even, so that works.
The Ament Tundra, strictly speaking, is confined to the single campaign map (#16 in current numbering, #14 in the old). I'd add most of the rest of the southern section of that continent to the Demon Empires, as they are quite extensive.
How do people feel about the size of Karak? Does it seem right? Should Thonia have access to the Wilderlands Sea? Or would that suggest that they would have a stronger influence on the Wilderlands than they do?
Karak works as is, when you have to take Thonia's existence into account. Officially, Karak is twice the size of the entire Wilderlands (i.e., 36 campaign maps in size!), but this version works fine for the M-Wilderlands. Here, Karak can play Persia to the Thonian Rome. Your "Province of Bolgerie" gives Thonia more than enough access, and from the sounds of it, the peoples of Bolgerie are probably of Karak extraction with a dollop of the Thonian, so if the peoples of the Wilderlands were to ever encounter a "Thonian" from Bolgerie, they'd simply assume they were odd "Eastern" Karakhans...
Altogether, I really like what you've done! Excellent work!
****************************
Treebore:
That map works for me just fine! Thanks.
*****************
James: Thanks for your kind words! As you will notice I am also retaining Janivarsland which I believe you suggested to me when I was making a previous map.
I think I will try to make a modified version of the map, taking into account your suggestions. I want to wait a little though, so see if there are more things I should include.
For instance, I noticed that the Demon Empire should have access to the Darkwine Sea. I was thinking I could extend the eastern border of that kingdom a little so that it would reach around the Southern Reaches.
Also, I am wondering whether I should indicate the border between the Horned Lands and the Demon Empire or not. I suspect those borders are constantly shifting, so thats why I didn't get into that this time around.
The province of Bolgerie comes from the description of Skathros the Strangler. He is suspected to be a Bolger, a people described to have african traits.
I thought about making Karak=Thonia, but decided it would be more interesting to have them as two separate realms. As you say, they could be like Persia and Rome, or they could even have had a history of once being united like the eastern and western Roman Empires.
What is the real world inspiration for Karak if any? I noticed that they follow the Indian Pantheon, yet they are a horse people. I don't know much more about them at all.
Thanks to all who have commented on my map so far.
Havard
************************
James Mishler:
The Karakhan peoples are a mix of Mongolian and Indian, for the most part; think Mughal, only with the Hindu gods rather than Islam, plus nobles are generally wizards or sorcerers. There are many sub-tribes and conquered peoples (after all, Karak is HUGE), but the dominant culture has existed in one form or another for tens of thousands of years.
Regarding my comments as to the nature of Karak and the size of various lands and such are from as-yet unpublished materials. The lands around the Wilderlands will be published through my company, Adventure Games Publishing, from maps and information from Bob's original campaigns. The first such product will focus on the north-western quadrant of Karak, an area the size of nine of the standard Wilderlands campaign maps, adjacent to the Valley of the Ancients, Tarantis, and the Ebony Coast.
![[Image: 11011302896_e8220eb4a7_z.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3796/11011302896_e8220eb4a7_z.jpg)
********************
Havard:
James, excellent input!
I think the changes you made for Karak actually makes the map look more interesting.
Care to shed any light on those new regions you added? I am definately looking forward to seeing your book on Karak. I'm happy to hear that things are in motion at your company.
Back to the map: I think I will try to make a new map incorporating what you have just illustrated. Another change I would like to make is to connect the Western and Eastern Tanogoro lands. They were split up to create sea access to the Wilderlands, but since this access is now made next to the Demonic Empire I don't feel that is neccesary any longer. What do you think?
I like the connection between the Demi-Giants of Bellisaria and your Dawn territory Giant Kingdom BTW. Your Blackmoor timeline is pretty much canon IMC so that works very well.
Cheers!
Havard
************************
Gaishunk:
Great maps, Hvard! Thank you very much for you effort and time! I'll surely use it if I ever find the time to incorporate Blackmoor in my Wilderlands campaign
*******************************
Havard:
Thanks Henrik!
My own campaign is set in Blackmoor. I don't plan on taking the party to the Wilderlands any time soon, but you never know what the players will come up with. I have found that simply deciding that the two settings are connected is inflencing the feel of the game though. I am trying to make it as much Sword and Sorcery as possible.
Havard
**************************************
mtbdm:
That is quite a cool map. If I were using Blackmoor on Mystarra, I'd definitely use that. I'm planning on tacking it onto the Wilderlands, though.
********************************
Havard:
Eh?
This is Blackmoor and the Wilderlands. I'm simpl using Mystara as a backdrop for both of those settings.
*****************************
Treebore:
Initially, on my conglomerate world, where I have any setting I like that is only a continent or smaller, I was going to try and have the Wilderlands attached to the southern end of Aeroth and the Blackmoor lands attached to GH like it was, at one time.
But I like how this lays out. I think I'll just make these two a separate continent of their own.
James,
I "know" your familiar with the geography of Aeroth. Do you see a good way to link the map is this thread to Aeroth/DCC 35 Known World (for those of you who aren't familiar with it)?
**************************************
JamesMishler:
This looks terrible, thanks to Photobucket shrinking it, but it should give you the basic idea.
Note that the Known Realms compared to even Mystara is quite largish... but this works, for the most part. The Northlands are from my Known Realms map, the Lost Lands are quick and dirty guesstimates scribbled in paint.
![[Image: 11011498123_6293ebd389_z.jpg]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7365/11011498123_6293ebd389_z.jpg)
*********************
Treebore:
It sure looks workable. Did you clean this up before posting it over at Goodman? It seems that the one over at goodman looked cleaned up.
*****************************
JamesMishler:
This one is dreadful, but the original is small and dirty, anyway... it just gives the most general idea of the layout.
As for adding Erde, I'm afraid you are on your own... With fitting in Kara-Tur and enough space for the lands west of the Xulmec, I'm out of space in the northern hemisphere!
![[Image: 11011301275_411b12b935_z.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3678/11011301275_411b12b935_z.jpg)
****************************
Robsconley:
This graphic is how I always understood the two combined.
The river running through the plains of Hak doesn't have a corresponding river on the other side so I would solve that by having extend a little ways into Map 3 and end.
Originally (1980) I did this by taking original map 3 and ran a photocopy at half size. (four sheets or so taped together) and aligning it with the blackmoor map.
The left edge of blackmoor to the start of the valley of the ancients aligns perfectly with the left edge of Map 3 to the end of the valley ancients. Given that old judges guild did these maps by making a master and then having a printer shoot it with a camera I suspect something similar was done in the first place.
http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/ ... stwild.jpg (link broken)
Enjoy
Rob Conley
********************************
Havard:
Thanks for your feedback Rob!
I guess the main difference between our two versions is that I moved the Wilderlands a little to the southwest to make room for the (slightly modified) DA maps and the Great Glacier. Unless the Great Glacier is supposed to be the Tiny Glacier or block the path of the Afridhi from entering Blackmoor I felt the need to make some room for it.
Another thing: I have extended some of the countries/regions quite a bit. Especially Elphand, Viridistan and Ghinor have been extended considerably and the two first have been given access to a sea to the west. How does this fit with the overall setting?
How do people feel about the size of Karak? Does it seem right? Should Thonia have access to the Wilderlands Sea? Or would that suggest that they would have a stronger influence on the Wilderlands than they do?
Just a couple of things that I had to consider when making my map.
Havard
*************************
JamesMishler:
Havard,
Excellent work! I think that your solution works best when adding together Wilderlands, Blackmoor, AND Mystara. It takes the needs of all three settings and makes them fit with minimal kludginess. The only issue, as you mention, is the Great Glacier, and that is supposed to be more or less unnatural in extent, anyhoo...
Another thing: I have extended some of the countries/regions quite a bit. Especially Elphand, Viridistan and Ghinor have been extended considerably and the two first have been given access to a sea to the west. How does this fit with the overall setting?
Viridistan definitely does not extend that far west; no big deal. If you want to make it closer to canon, split it off about where the "t" is, and points west should be labeled "Demi-Giant Kingdoms," an extension of the demi-giant kingdoms you've placed on Belissaria (in Mystara, an isolated colony thereof, which works with the giant kingdoms I put on the Dawn Territories at this time in my Blackmoor timeline).
You might want to split the Elphand Lands in twain, as well... the west of that region is known as the "Land of Beasts," and is a "Lost Worlds" region, complete with sabertooth tigers, mammoths, and even dinosaurs. That would be why the Afridhi didn't go south, either...
The Desert Lands actually do extend that far west, and further, even, so that works.
The Ament Tundra, strictly speaking, is confined to the single campaign map (#16 in current numbering, #14 in the old). I'd add most of the rest of the southern section of that continent to the Demon Empires, as they are quite extensive.
How do people feel about the size of Karak? Does it seem right? Should Thonia have access to the Wilderlands Sea? Or would that suggest that they would have a stronger influence on the Wilderlands than they do?
Karak works as is, when you have to take Thonia's existence into account. Officially, Karak is twice the size of the entire Wilderlands (i.e., 36 campaign maps in size!), but this version works fine for the M-Wilderlands. Here, Karak can play Persia to the Thonian Rome. Your "Province of Bolgerie" gives Thonia more than enough access, and from the sounds of it, the peoples of Bolgerie are probably of Karak extraction with a dollop of the Thonian, so if the peoples of the Wilderlands were to ever encounter a "Thonian" from Bolgerie, they'd simply assume they were odd "Eastern" Karakhans...
Altogether, I really like what you've done! Excellent work!
****************************
Treebore:
That map works for me just fine! Thanks.
*****************
James: Thanks for your kind words! As you will notice I am also retaining Janivarsland which I believe you suggested to me when I was making a previous map.
I think I will try to make a modified version of the map, taking into account your suggestions. I want to wait a little though, so see if there are more things I should include.
For instance, I noticed that the Demon Empire should have access to the Darkwine Sea. I was thinking I could extend the eastern border of that kingdom a little so that it would reach around the Southern Reaches.
Also, I am wondering whether I should indicate the border between the Horned Lands and the Demon Empire or not. I suspect those borders are constantly shifting, so thats why I didn't get into that this time around.
The province of Bolgerie comes from the description of Skathros the Strangler. He is suspected to be a Bolger, a people described to have african traits.
I thought about making Karak=Thonia, but decided it would be more interesting to have them as two separate realms. As you say, they could be like Persia and Rome, or they could even have had a history of once being united like the eastern and western Roman Empires.
What is the real world inspiration for Karak if any? I noticed that they follow the Indian Pantheon, yet they are a horse people. I don't know much more about them at all.
Thanks to all who have commented on my map so far.
Havard
************************
James Mishler:
The Karakhan peoples are a mix of Mongolian and Indian, for the most part; think Mughal, only with the Hindu gods rather than Islam, plus nobles are generally wizards or sorcerers. There are many sub-tribes and conquered peoples (after all, Karak is HUGE), but the dominant culture has existed in one form or another for tens of thousands of years.
Regarding my comments as to the nature of Karak and the size of various lands and such are from as-yet unpublished materials. The lands around the Wilderlands will be published through my company, Adventure Games Publishing, from maps and information from Bob's original campaigns. The first such product will focus on the north-western quadrant of Karak, an area the size of nine of the standard Wilderlands campaign maps, adjacent to the Valley of the Ancients, Tarantis, and the Ebony Coast.
********************
Havard:
James, excellent input!
I think the changes you made for Karak actually makes the map look more interesting.
Care to shed any light on those new regions you added? I am definately looking forward to seeing your book on Karak. I'm happy to hear that things are in motion at your company.
Back to the map: I think I will try to make a new map incorporating what you have just illustrated. Another change I would like to make is to connect the Western and Eastern Tanogoro lands. They were split up to create sea access to the Wilderlands, but since this access is now made next to the Demonic Empire I don't feel that is neccesary any longer. What do you think?
I like the connection between the Demi-Giants of Bellisaria and your Dawn territory Giant Kingdom BTW. Your Blackmoor timeline is pretty much canon IMC so that works very well.
Cheers!
Havard
************************
Gaishunk:
Great maps, Hvard! Thank you very much for you effort and time! I'll surely use it if I ever find the time to incorporate Blackmoor in my Wilderlands campaign
*******************************
Havard:
Thanks Henrik!
My own campaign is set in Blackmoor. I don't plan on taking the party to the Wilderlands any time soon, but you never know what the players will come up with. I have found that simply deciding that the two settings are connected is inflencing the feel of the game though. I am trying to make it as much Sword and Sorcery as possible.
Havard
**************************************
mtbdm:
That is quite a cool map. If I were using Blackmoor on Mystarra, I'd definitely use that. I'm planning on tacking it onto the Wilderlands, though.
********************************
Havard:
Eh?
This is Blackmoor and the Wilderlands. I'm simpl using Mystara as a backdrop for both of those settings.
*****************************
Treebore:
Initially, on my conglomerate world, where I have any setting I like that is only a continent or smaller, I was going to try and have the Wilderlands attached to the southern end of Aeroth and the Blackmoor lands attached to GH like it was, at one time.
But I like how this lays out. I think I'll just make these two a separate continent of their own.
James,
I "know" your familiar with the geography of Aeroth. Do you see a good way to link the map is this thread to Aeroth/DCC 35 Known World (for those of you who aren't familiar with it)?
**************************************
JamesMishler:
This looks terrible, thanks to Photobucket shrinking it, but it should give you the basic idea.
Note that the Known Realms compared to even Mystara is quite largish... but this works, for the most part. The Northlands are from my Known Realms map, the Lost Lands are quick and dirty guesstimates scribbled in paint.
*********************
Treebore:
It sure looks workable. Did you clean this up before posting it over at Goodman? It seems that the one over at goodman looked cleaned up.
*****************************
JamesMishler:
This one is dreadful, but the original is small and dirty, anyway... it just gives the most general idea of the layout.
As for adding Erde, I'm afraid you are on your own... With fitting in Kara-Tur and enough space for the lands west of the Xulmec, I'm out of space in the northern hemisphere!
****************************
Currently Running: The Blackmoor Vales Saga
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign