09-27-2011, 03:20 AM
My gut reaction was to disagree with some of these statements about Balrogs, but after having thought about them for a while, I have come to see things differently:
Well, it depends on how you see Balrogs, but perhaps more importantly how you see Dragons. In light of my Divinity of Dragons article, where I suggest that Dragons are messengers of the Gods, then that would indeed make evil dragons a kind of demons. In that context what you are saying makes more sense.
Perhaps, but Balrogs are the demons of the Middle Earth. In the movies the term demon is even used to describe them. I can't remember if that was from Tolkien or not, but its appearance alone should not leave much doubt that this is the kind of creature we are dealing with here. In the Silmarillion it becomes even more clear that the Maiar are a kind of Angels and Balrogs are of the same type as the Maiar, only evil.
Isn't gonzo is what Blackmoor is all about?
In the original game, one guy played an Efreet. We have also debated the Gin of Salik, even though he might not be an actual Djinn.
For an eldar Balrog, just as for an eldar dragon, I'm right with you, but young balrogs, like young dragons, are much less dangerous, and more likely to be out iand about in the world, judging from what we see in blackmoor and Freds world.[/quote]
Again, I was inclined to disagree at first, but there is more than one way to look at this. The generally accepted version is that Balrogs became Demon Type IV (later Roaring Demons in BECMI and Balors in AD&D) after the Tolkien Estate Lawsuit.
However, in the original Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns, Balrogs were the only type of demon. This means, that going by later editions, you could replace Balrogs with a number of creatures, ranging from the very powerful to the weaker, but yet utterly evil beings. Most BECMI Demons are incredibly powerful, but there is the Ostegos (Death Demon) and Imps which are more on par with mortal level heroes. So with this understanding, I dont think our views are in conflict.
-Havard
Aldarron Wrote:each to 'is own.
I don't think the connection was simply a game mechanic though. On the face of it it seems a dead obvious connection - both dragons and balrogs are winged intelligent creatures who immolate and like to den in underground lairs. Heck they are almost the same, except that one immolates by breath and the other by touch.
Well, it depends on how you see Balrogs, but perhaps more importantly how you see Dragons. In light of my Divinity of Dragons article, where I suggest that Dragons are messengers of the Gods, then that would indeed make evil dragons a kind of demons. In that context what you are saying makes more sense.
Quote:The whole "demon" designation seems to me to be nothing more than creative/desperate reimagining in the face of a legal challenge from the Tolkien estate.
Perhaps, but Balrogs are the demons of the Middle Earth. In the movies the term demon is even used to describe them. I can't remember if that was from Tolkien or not, but its appearance alone should not leave much doubt that this is the kind of creature we are dealing with here. In the Silmarillion it becomes even more clear that the Maiar are a kind of Angels and Balrogs are of the same type as the Maiar, only evil.
Quote:But then again my bias is to not want to mix in middle-eastern mythologies - angels, demons, djinn - and so forth, in to my game, particularly in a northern setting. Feels to gonzo to me to be comfortable with that.
Isn't gonzo is what Blackmoor is all about?
In the original game, one guy played an Efreet. We have also debated the Gin of Salik, even though he might not be an actual Djinn.
Havard Wrote:As to their power level, all of these people had read Lord of the Rings so how powerful a Balrog is depends on how powerful you see Gandalf as being.
Personally I think they should be possible to defeat only by the most powerful mortals. In a 36 level setup such as in BECMI D&D, you'd have to be in your 30s to have a chance IMO.
For an eldar Balrog, just as for an eldar dragon, I'm right with you, but young balrogs, like young dragons, are much less dangerous, and more likely to be out iand about in the world, judging from what we see in blackmoor and Freds world.[/quote]
Again, I was inclined to disagree at first, but there is more than one way to look at this. The generally accepted version is that Balrogs became Demon Type IV (later Roaring Demons in BECMI and Balors in AD&D) after the Tolkien Estate Lawsuit.
However, in the original Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns, Balrogs were the only type of demon. This means, that going by later editions, you could replace Balrogs with a number of creatures, ranging from the very powerful to the weaker, but yet utterly evil beings. Most BECMI Demons are incredibly powerful, but there is the Ostegos (Death Demon) and Imps which are more on par with mortal level heroes. So with this understanding, I dont think our views are in conflict.
-Havard
Currently Running: The Blackmoor Vales Saga
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign