How well does Blackmoor MMRPG line up with Living Greyhawk?

[Big Mac]

I'm wondering how easy it would be to convert Blackmoor MMRPG over to the same timeline as Living Greyhawk.

I realise that Dave Arneson's Blackmoor wasn't designed to be placed into the Flanaess, so some degree of conversion would be required, but it seems to me that the Blackmoor MMRPG episodes (along with the adventures that are folded into the seasons) make for a well organised pre-made long-term campaign.

And if Blackmoor MMRPG was used alongside Living Greyhawk, the core LG documentation (and things like the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer) might be able to fill in for any elements of Dave Arneson's Blackmoor (or the Blackmoor MMRPG) that are not appropriate for the Blackmoor within the Flanaess.

Does anyone know of anything in the 3rd Edition Dave Arneson's Blackmoor line or the episodes of Blackmoor MMRPG that would be especially problematic?

[Havard]

Most of the adventures deal with things local to the Blackmoor region, so if you assume that Blackmoor at this time is similar to how it is presented in the ZGG line you should be okay. For things like the Hadeen arc, you would need to decide if you want to incorporate Blackmoor deities or simply replace them with Greyhawk equivalents.

I cannot recall any specific adventures dealing with the Duchy of Ten, but here you will have problems with the fact that the location of the Duchy of Tehn is different corresponding to Greyhawk's Blackmoor than in the Arneson version.

-Havard

[Big Mac]

Most of the adventures deal with things local to the Blackmoor region, so if you assume that Blackmoor at this time is similar to how it is presented in the ZGG line you should be okay. For things like the Hadeen arc, you would need to decide if you want to incorporate Blackmoor deities or simply replace them with Greyhawk equivalents.

I was kind of hoping that Blackmoor MMRPG would magically line up with Living Greyhawk, but I guess that would be an oversimplification. I suppose that lining up the timeline would be one issue. Once that was done, you would need to factor in Flanaess events, from that time, as background events in a "Blackmoor for Living Greyhawk" coversion document.

Greyhawk has this thing of its people being made up by being a mix of several human races. So I'd guess that if you took the Blackmoor races and worked out how they fit into the mix, that might automatically carry over implications about Greyhawk pantheons that could be worshiped in that specific area. That might provide many of the answers. Then you could decide if you want to have new gods (and use Dave Arneson's gods as a new pantheon) or transpose a Blackmoor god over to a Greyhawk god. But I think this is a problem bigger than the MMRPG. I think that religion probably needs its own thread. :?

I cannot recall any specific adventures dealing with the Duchy of Ten, but here you will have problems with the fact that the location of the Duchy of Tehn is different corresponding to Greyhawk's Blackmoor than in the Arneson version.

OK. So we have an altered location. But would it totally break Blackmoor MMRPG things to alter them to fit into the LG scheme?

If we assume, for example, that Living Greyhawk canon is "correct" and that Blackmoor MMRPG canon is "correct unless it clashes with LG canon" would that give us some sort of way to quickly go through 50-80 percent of Blackmoor MMRPG canon and decide that it works fine as is?

If we could hand wave away the majority of Blackmoor MMRPG canon as "correct", and then come back to take a detailed look at "problematic" things like the Duchy of Tehn, would we actually have to do much? What is the least amount of change we would need to make to have the Duchy of Tehn be as expected by Greyhawk players?

A new location is going to mean different travel times between the Duchy of Tehn. It might also make it move out of the zone of influence of certain other locations and maybe move into the zone of influence of certain other locations. How much of a problem would that be? If an NPC in Blackmoor comes from a land that is twice as far away, is that really going to cause a problem?

I would assume that we would go with the Greyhawk map of the Blackmoor region (in fact, I'd love to see if Anna Meyer would be willing to build a customised map of Greyhawk's Blackmoor at some point). I figure that a small number of things would need to move around, but that the vast majority of the themes of the MMRPG would copy over to Living Greyhawk standards unchanged and most of the rest could have the least number of changes possible.

[Keolander]

Sort of laterally related to this would be linking up the OD&D Castle Greyhawk campaign (using the old Avalon Hill Outdoor Survival Board) with Blackmoor. You could consider the board to be the area beyond the borders of the Barony and its surrounding environs.

Avalon Hill Outdoor Survival Board

[Havard]

I was kind of hoping that Blackmoor MMRPG would magically line up with Living Greyhawk, but I guess that would be an oversimplification. I suppose that lining up the timeline would be one issue. Once that was done, you would need to factor in Flanaess events, from that time, as background events in a "Blackmoor for Living Greyhawk" coversion document.

Yeah, the timeline is a big issue, but this seems to be easily dealt with using the assumptions in the other thread.

Greyhawk has this thing of its people being made up by being a mix of several human races. So I'd guess that if you took the Blackmoor races and worked out how they fit into the mix, that might automatically carry over implications about Greyhawk pantheons that could be worshiped in that specific area. That might provide many of the answers. Then you could decide if you want to have new gods (and use Dave Arneson's gods as a new pantheon) or transpose a Blackmoor god over to a Greyhawk god. But I think this is a problem bigger than the MMRPG. I think that religion probably needs its own thread. :?

Race conversions:

Thonians=Oeridians
Skandaharians=Thorillian/Suel Barbarian
Peshwah=Wolf/Tiger Nomads


I agree about religions needing their own thread. I don't see it being a big issue with the MMRPG though as it can be solved in a number of ways without causing problems for those adventures.

Duch of Tenh

OK. So we have an altered location. But would it totally break Blackmoor MMRPG things to alter them to fit into the LG scheme?

If we assume, for example, that Living Greyhawk canon is "correct" and that Blackmoor MMRPG canon is "correct unless it clashes with LG canon" would that give us some sort of way to quickly go through 50-80 percent of Blackmoor MMRPG canon and decide that it works fine as is?

If we could hand wave away the majority of Blackmoor MMRPG canon as "correct", and then come back to take a detailed look at "problematic" things like the Duchy of Tehn, would we actually have to do much? What is the least amount of change we would need to make to have the Duchy of Tehn be as expected by Greyhawk players?

A new location is going to mean different travel times between the Duchy of Tehn. It might also make it move out of the zone of influence of certain other locations and maybe move into the zone of influence of certain other locations. How much of a problem would that be? If an NPC in Blackmoor comes from a land that is twice as far away, is that really going to cause a problem?

I think that we can just ignore the fact that the Duchy of Ten/Tenh is in a different spot and it would not affect the MMRPG much.

I would assume that we would go with the Greyhawk map of the Blackmoor region (in fact, I'd love to see if Anna Meyer would be willing to build a customised map of Greyhawk's Blackmoor at some point). I figure that a small number of things would need to move around, but that the vast majority of the themes of the MMRPG would copy over to Living Greyhawk standards unchanged and most of the rest could have the least number of changes possible.

A map by Anna Meyer would be cool

-Havard

[Havard]

Sort of laterally related to this would be linking up the OD&D Castle Greyhawk campaign (using the old Avalon Hill Outdoor Survival Board) with Blackmoor. You could consider the board to be the area beyond the borders of the Barony and its surrounding environs.

Avalon Hill Outdoor Survival Board

Hey Keo! Great seeing you here again

Interestingly both Gary and Dave did use that map to expand their realms.

-Havard

[Big Mac]

Sort of laterally related to this would be linking up the OD&D Castle Greyhawk campaign (using the old Avalon Hill Outdoor Survival Board) with Blackmoor. You could consider the board to be the area beyond the borders of the Barony and its surrounding environs.

Avalon Hill Outdoor Survival Board

Nice looking map. Thanks Keolander.

Does this Outdoor Survival Board hail from that time when a number of people were all using parts of the same map?

[Keolander]

Does this Outdoor Survival Board hail from that time when a number of people were all using parts of the same map?

I believe it actually does. Not sure how Mr. Arneson used it since (presumably) he had the environs outside Castle Blackmoor mapped out early on. Like I said, I would think it could be used for the area 'beyond the borders of the map'. I'm not actually even sure how Mr. Gygax used it, though I suppose The City of Greyhawk was represented as the one city along the river (with Castle Greyhawk being in the same hex).

[Havard]

Does this Outdoor Survival Board hail from that time when a number of people were all using parts of the same map?

I believe it actually does. Not sure how Mr. Arneson used it since (presumably) he had the environs outside Castle Blackmoor mapped out early on. Like I said, I would think it could be used for the area 'beyond the borders of the map'. I'm not actually even sure how Mr. Gygax used it, though I suppose The City of Greyhawk was represented as the one city along the river (with Castle Greyhawk being in the same hex).

I believe the way this worked in Arneson's campaign was that once they reached the outskirts of the heartlands Arneson already mapped out, they started using the map Keolander links to. Once they reached the edge of that map, a new identical map appeared and this could theoretically go on forever.

-Havard

[aldarron]

Does this Outdoor Survival Board hail from that time when a number of people were all using parts of the same map?

I believe it actually does. Not sure how Mr. Arneson used it since (presumably) he had the environs outside Castle Blackmoor mapped out early on. Like I said, I would think it could be used for the area 'beyond the borders of the map'. I'm not actually even sure how Mr. Gygax used it, though I suppose The City of Greyhawk was represented as the one city along the river (with Castle Greyhawk being in the same hex).

The OS map was called "province One" and was simply tacked on to the bottom of the Blackmoor map.