Arnesonian Gaming?

[Kanye Westeros]

What's good, my dudes?

While reading the thread on the Mordred rpg, I noticed a user refer to themselves as an Arnesonian Gamer. I've only just started digging into the history of the hobby and started with 4E, so excuse the ignorance but what does this term mean?

Great forum by the way, it's been keeping me awake while doing uni work.

[Rafael]

You have the best screen name. Ever. Everever. Evereverever.

Well, I do not know if there's any consensus about the meaning of the word among the fans,
but I define "Arnesonian" as a variant of fantasy gaming that trends towards Dark Age, low-fantasy, and human-centric roleplaying.

I personally include in the definition that "Arnesonian" gaming is very sandboxy, allowing a lot of player influence on the setting, and that the scenarios are,
in modern terms, not exclusively site-based (as so-called "Gygaxian" adventures tend to be), and are more event-based "overland wilderness" adventures.



In context with my Mordred , it's really something I find hard to pinpoint, at the moment. Then again, my focus in the RPG hobby for the better part of last decade
consisted in learning, collecting, and obviously, playing stuff by Mr Arneson. So, his works are most likely the most prevalent influence on my gaming.

Actually, that's not meant to be a cheap plug-in: I just want to be clear that my stuff is not a derivative. For "truer" Arnesonian stuff, check "Dragons at Dawn", for example. A way better purchase, in that context.

[Kanye Westeros]

Thanks man, I can't take credit for it's awesomeness, stole it from a tumblr.

n modern terms, not exclusively site-based (as so-called "Gygaxian" adventures tend to be), and are more event-based "overland wilderness" adventures.

Could you unpack this a bit more for me? I'm guessing that site-based is the good old hex crawl where each hex has something interesting? What are event based overland wilderness adventures though?

Thanks for the clarification, sounds like I've found a great vein of game philosophy to mine!

[finarvyn]

Since you started with 4E, I'm going to assume that you don't know much about the first 30 years of the game. Apologies if this is in error.

Gygax and Arneson are credited with creating the original D&D game back in 1974. This was before AD&D, 2E, 3E, and your 4E. Both of their styles are a little hard to define, even though folks use "Gygaxian" and "Arnesonian" regularly.

Arneson was the pioneer, converting a Napolionics game into middle-ages fantasy. His early adventures were dungeon crawls, and he essentially created this genre of adventure as well. The dungeons under Castle Blackmoor became legendary, but the campaign expanded outward to include the city of Blackmoor and the surrounding nations. Dave's games were said to be really wild with little rules structure and lots of gonzo action. Dave enjoyed mixing bits of technology with his fantasy, adding in things like Star Trek tricorders for his players to find.

Gygax was the "rules" guy, taking many of Arneson's ideas and crafting more structure than Dave's campaigns. Gygax also loved language, and reading his words often requires a thesaurus along the way. As with Dave's Blackmoor, Gary built dungeons for Greyhawk and a city of Greyhawk and a bunch of nations around the city for wilderness games. Gary's campaigns are better known because his material often got used for GenCon tournament play and eventually reworked into modules for sale. (This includes the G-series, D-series, S1 and T1, and others.)

Both men were known to be strict game masters in their own way. Stories of how each would punish the stupid player or disruptive player are pretty widespread. And if the dice said you were dead, you were dead.

I think in general the terms "Gygaxian" and "Arnesonian" are used mostly to imply a return to old-school gaming styles where rules were vague and consequences harsh. The adventures could be in dungeons or in an urban setting, on land or on the sea, but always were filled with dangers and rewards. That's the way I see it, at least. And I've played for a long time.

Just my two coppers.

[Rafael]

What Fin has said.

Could you unpack this a bit more for me? I'm guessing that site-based is the good old hex crawl where each hex has something interesting? What are event based overland wilderness adventures though?

Not quite - aren't those 4e terms, actually?

Site-based: Evolving around, well, a site, like a dungeon, or a city. The difference being, they are static - the monsters are always where the module puts it, there is no realistic dynamic to the setting.

Event-based: An adventure that follows a course of events that happen WITH or WITHOUT the heroes' interference; for example, the enemy army will attack the third day of the month,
and by noon, the battle will be over.

Most adventures are really a mix of both concepts, but for all I know, Mr Arneson strongly favoured the latter; meaning that his game had less the feel of a boardgame, and more of an interactive story.

[Rafael]

And with "wilderness", I refer to that Arneson's game were the first to really get the players out of the dungeon - Gygaxian megadungeons, you had not,
but more shorter, "believable" settings.

[Kanye Westeros]

Cool, thanks dudes. You would be right, I was born when the RC was the thing but I have picked up bits of information here and there.

Sorry for the confusion and nah, it's not a 4E term, I just assumed from Carcosa's hex map layout. Excuse the ignorance.

[Gronan of Simmerya]

What Fin has said.

Could you unpack this a bit more for me? I'm guessing that site-based is the good old hex crawl where each hex has something interesting? What are event based overland wilderness adventures though?

Not quite - aren't those 4e terms, actually?

Site-based: Evolving around, well, a site, like a dungeon, or a city. The difference being, they are static - the monsters are always where the module puts it, there is no realistic dynamic to the setting.

Event-based: An adventure that follows a course of events that happen WITH or WITHOUT the heroes' interference; for example, the enemy army will attack the third day of the month,
and by noon, the battle will be over.

Most adventures are really a mix of both concepts, but for all I know, Mr Arneson strongly favoured the latter; meaning that his game had less the feel of a boardgame, and more of an interactive story.

Having played in both Greyhawk and Blackmoor, I have to ask where on Earth you're getting your analysis of Gary's and Dave's games from.

Because it matches what I played not a whit.

[Rafael]

What exactly do you disagree with? Because what I am doing is to explain two modern terms in Wizbro's RPG pseudotheory.

That they are not 100% applicable, is an understatement, of course; but in vernacular, from what I have read, Gygax was all Megadungeon, while Arneson was all "epic quest adventure".

[Havard]

Since you started with 4E, I'm going to assume that you don't know much about the first 30 years of the game. Apologies if this is in error.

Gygax and Arneson are credited with creating the original D&D game back in 1974. This was before AD&D, 2E, 3E, and your 4E. Both of their styles are a little hard to define, even though folks use "Gygaxian" and "Arnesonian" regularly.

Arneson was the pioneer, converting a Napolionics game into middle-ages fantasy. His early adventures were dungeon crawls, and he essentially created this genre of adventure as well. The dungeons under Castle Blackmoor became legendary, but the campaign expanded outward to include the city of Blackmoor and the surrounding nations. Dave's games were said to be really wild with little rules structure and lots of gonzo action. Dave enjoyed mixing bits of technology with his fantasy, adding in things like Star Trek tricorders for his players to find.

Gygax was the "rules" guy, taking many of Arneson's ideas and crafting more structure than Dave's campaigns. Gygax also loved language, and reading his words often requires a thesaurus along the way. As with Dave's Blackmoor, Gary built dungeons for Greyhawk and a city of Greyhawk and a bunch of nations around the city for wilderness games. Gary's campaigns are better known because his material often got used for GenCon tournament play and eventually reworked into modules for sale. (This includes the G-series, D-series, S1 and T1, and others.)

Both men were known to be strict game masters in their own way. Stories of how each would punish the stupid player or disruptive player are pretty widespread. And if the dice said you were dead, you were dead.

I think in general the terms "Gygaxian" and "Arnesonian" are used mostly to imply a return to old-school gaming styles where rules were vague and consequences harsh. The adventures could be in dungeons or in an urban setting, on land or on the sea, but always were filled with dangers and rewards. That's the way I see it, at least. And I've played for a long time.

Just my two coppers.

Sorry about the massive quote, but bI think Finarvyn summed this up better than I could.

-Havard