The Bovo Popuo

[Havard]

When the dwarves first arrived in the north, a dark race now only reffered to as the Bovo Popuo (dwarven for "The people from before") lived in the mountains. It is believed that the dwarves wiped out this entire race, but that their spirits still linger in dark places deep below the mountains.

Any thoughts to what race this might be?

-Havard

[Havard]

Elsewhere, Snorri suggested that the Bovo Popuo could be Garls. Garls are a race of primitive Giants, comparable to Ogres in size IIRC. Their culture would be neolithic. Some fan sources have suggested that they could be the ancestors of dwarves. They feature in the DA modules so bringing them in here would fit. They also appear in the AC9 Creature Catalog. Personally I like this idea alot.

Edit: Checking AC9, it actually describes the Garls as 10ft tall humans.

-Havard

[aldarron]

When the dwarves first arrived in the north, a dark race now only reffered to as the Bovo Popuo (dwarven for "The people from before") lived in the mountains. It is believed that the dwarves wiped out this entire race, but that their spirits still linger in dark places deep below the mountains.

Any thoughts to what race this might be?

-Havard

It looks to me like Bovo Pupuo is made up dwarven for "before people" so there doesn't seem to be a clue in the name.

The "lingering spirits deep below the mountains" bit hints at Balrogs. I wonder if it could be an inside reference to how original Blackmoor had Balrogs all over the place but that it was decided to not include them in the DA series, except perhaps, for a few lingering in shadows.

Garls are new to me and sound kinda cool. Where are they referenced Havard?

[Havard]

It looks to me like Bovo Pupuo is made up dwarven for "before people" so there doesn't seem to be a clue in the name.

The "lingering spirits deep below the mountains" bit hints at Balrogs. I wonder if it could be an inside reference to how original Blackmoor had Balrogs all over the place but that it was decided to not include them in the DA series, except perhaps, for a few lingering in shadows.

Interesting point. There is definately a Moria analogy here. I agree with you that Balrogs would have been more numerous in the past. None of the DA modules make use of any such creature, but the Immortal Rules were published one year before the DA modules (1986) and did include the Roaring Demon which is BECMI's equivalent of the Balrog. Probably DA5 would have included such a creature. However, they are much more powerful than OD&D's Balrogs and having them in every dungeon would have been disasterous even for Companion level play. I like the idea of Balrogs/Demons living below the dwarven mines but OTOH, my impression is that the Bovo Popuo would have been a race, and demons would be limited to a few select indivduals.

Garls are new to me and sound kinda cool. Where are they referenced Havard?

They are described in DA3 City of the Gods. The module lists them in the encounter tables for the Badlands, Ash Hills and Blue Hills, surrounding the Valley of the Ancients. The D20 CS does not mention Garls specifically, but does mention "all sorts of twisted, mutated creatures" living in this region.

Garls previously appeared in AC9 and the module CM9 Where Chaos Reigns.

-Havard

[aldarron]

It looks to me like Bovo Pupuo is made up dwarven for "before people" so there doesn't seem to be a clue in the name.

The "lingering spirits deep below the mountains" bit hints at Balrogs. I wonder if it could be an inside reference to how original Blackmoor had Balrogs all over the place but that it was decided to not include them in the DA series, except perhaps, for a few lingering in shadows.

Interesting point. There is definately a Moria analogy here. I agree with you that Balrogs would have been more numerous in the past. None of the DA modules make use of any such creature, but the Immortal Rules were published one year before the DA modules (1986) and did include the Roaring Demon which is BECMI's equivalent of the Balrog. Probably DA5 would have included such a creature. However, they are much more powerful than OD&D's Balrogs and having them in every dungeon would have been disasterous even for Companion level play. I like the idea of Balrogs/Demons living below the dwarven mines but OTOH, my impression is that the Bovo Popuo would have been a race, and demons would be limited to a few select indivduals.

Well, I think the Freds World Balrogs are pretty close to how the beasties were seen in early Blackmoor and OD&D. The OD&D Balrog is listed as a sub variety of dragon, perhaps very similar to "half Dragons" and related creatures from Wotc D&D. So, taken together, I wouldn't have any qualms about seeing them as an ancient "race" and not necessarily as "demons" whatever exactly demons may be.

[Havard]

Well, I think the Freds World Balrogs are pretty close to how the beasties were seen in early Blackmoor and OD&D. The OD&D Balrog is listed as a sub variety of dragon, perhaps very similar to "half Dragons" and related creatures from Wotc D&D. So, taken together, I wouldn't have any qualms about seeing them as an ancient "race" and not necessarily as "demons" whatever exactly demons may be.

My understanding is that the connection to dragons is a game mechanical one rather than anything to do with their origins. As to their power level, all of these people had read Lord of the Rings so how powerful a Balrog is depends on how powerful you see Gandalf as being.

Personally I think they should be possible to defeat only by the most powerful mortals. In a 36 level setup such as in BECMI D&D, you'd have to be in your 30s to have a chance IMO.

-Havard

[aldarron]

Well, I think the Freds World Balrogs are pretty close to how the beasties were seen in early Blackmoor and OD&D. The OD&D Balrog is listed as a sub variety of dragon, perhaps very similar to "half Dragons" and related creatures from Wotc D&D. So, taken together, I wouldn't have any qualms about seeing them as an ancient "race" and not necessarily as "demons" whatever exactly demons may be.

My understanding is that the connection to dragons is a game mechanical one rather than anything to do with their origins.

each to 'is own.
I don't think the connection was simply a game mechanic though. On the face of it it seems a dead obvious connection - both dragons and balrogs are winged intelligent creatures who immolate and like to den in underground lairs. Heck they are almost the same, except that one immolates by breath and the other by touch.

The whole "demon" designation seems to me to be nothing more than creative/desperate reimagining in the face of a legal challenge from the Tolkien estate.

But then again my bias is to not want to mix in middle-eastern mythologies - angels, demons, djinn - and so forth, in to my game, particularly in a northern setting. Feels to gonzo to me to be comfortable with that.

As to their power level, all of these people had read Lord of the Rings so how powerful a Balrog is depends on how powerful you see Gandalf as being.

Personally I think they should be possible to defeat only by the most powerful mortals. In a 36 level setup such as in BECMI D&D, you'd have to be in your 30s to have a chance IMO.

-Havard

For an eldar Balrog, just as for an eldar dragon, I'm right with you, but young balrogs, like young dragons, are much less dangerous, and more likely to be out iand about in the world, judging from what we see in blackmoor and Freds world.

[Havard]

My gut reaction was to disagree with some of these statements about Balrogs, but after having thought about them for a while, I have come to see things differently:

each to 'is own.
I don't think the connection was simply a game mechanic though. On the face of it it seems a dead obvious connection - both dragons and balrogs are winged intelligent creatures who immolate and like to den in underground lairs. Heck they are almost the same, except that one immolates by breath and the other by touch.

Well, it depends on how you see Balrogs, but perhaps more importantly how you see Dragons. In light of my Divinity of Dragons article, where I suggest that Dragons are messengers of the Gods, then that would indeed make evil dragons a kind of demons. In that context what you are saying makes more sense.

The whole "demon" designation seems to me to be nothing more than creative/desperate reimagining in the face of a legal challenge from the Tolkien estate.

Perhaps, but Balrogs are the demons of the Middle Earth. In the movies the term demon is even used to describe them. I can't remember if that was from Tolkien or not, but its appearance alone should not leave much doubt that this is the kind of creature we are dealing with here. In the Silmarillion it becomes even more clear that the Maiar are a kind of Angels and Balrogs are of the same type as the Maiar, only evil.

But then again my bias is to not want to mix in middle-eastern mythologies - angels, demons, djinn - and so forth, in to my game, particularly in a northern setting. Feels to gonzo to me to be comfortable with that.

Isn't gonzo is what Blackmoor is all about?

In the original game, one guy played an Efreet. We have also debated the Gin of Salik, even though he might not be an actual Djinn.

As to their power level, all of these people had read Lord of the Rings so how powerful a Balrog is depends on how powerful you see Gandalf as being.

Personally I think they should be possible to defeat only by the most powerful mortals. In a 36 level setup such as in BECMI D&D, you'd have to be in your 30s to have a chance IMO.

For an eldar Balrog, just as for an eldar dragon, I'm right with you, but young balrogs, like young dragons, are much less dangerous, and more likely to be out iand about in the world, judging from what we see in blackmoor and Freds world.[/quote]

Again, I was inclined to disagree at first, but there is more than one way to look at this. The generally accepted version is that Balrogs became Demon Type IV (later Roaring Demons in BECMI and Balors in AD&D) after the Tolkien Estate Lawsuit.

However, in the original Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns, Balrogs were the only type of demon. This means, that going by later editions, you could replace Balrogs with a number of creatures, ranging from the very powerful to the weaker, but yet utterly evil beings. Most BECMI Demons are incredibly powerful, but there is the Ostegos (Death Demon) and Imps which are more on par with mortal level heroes. So with this understanding, I dont think our views are in conflict.



-Havard

[aldarron]

Isn't gonzo is what Blackmoor is all about?

Heh, well yeah there is that..

In the original game, one guy played an Efreet. We have also debated the Gin of Salik, even though he might not be an actual Djinn.

Efreet - I missed that. Do you know who?

Again, I was inclined to disagree at first, but there is more than one way to look at this. The generally accepted version is that Balrogs became Demon Type IV (later Roaring Demons in BECMI and Balors in AD&D) after the Tolkien Estate Lawsuit.

However, in the original Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns, Balrogs were the only type of demon. This means, that going by later editions, you could replace Balrogs with a number of creatures, ranging from the very powerful to the weaker, but yet utterly evil beings. Most BECMI Demons are incredibly powerful, but there is the Ostegos (Death Demon) and Imps which are more on par with mortal level heroes. So with this understanding, I dont think our views are in conflict.
-Havard

That's seems a sensible approach, although I think I might be more comfortable with the "devils" label than the demons one. Seems a little silly perhaps, but devil is somehow more generic.

Upon reflection I realized part of my objection to the demon label is because of what demons are supposed to be - that is immortal, indestructable, evil angels; magical spirits with incredible powers able to manifest in flesh at will or vice versa.

I've also never bought the "Maiar are angels" argument. Sure, Tolkien was Catholic, but the maiar are clearly very different from angels, in the judeo christian sense. I think they have at least as much in common with the Aesir and Vanir. That is, they are god-like, but made of flesh and can be killed, permanently. Balrogs seem to me more as children of Loki than Azazel and Balzebub, and Gandalf reminds me more of Odin and Njodr than Michael and Gabriel,

[Havard]

Looking back at this now, I am leaning towards making the Bovo Popuo into Cavern Chokers.

Chokers first appeared in the Rockhome Gazetteer so they have a long term history as enemies of dwarves in Classic D&D and were also brought into the 3rd Edition Monster Manual.



Perhaps these Bovo Popuo Chokers are somewhat different from standard Chokers, just like Sahaugin are different from Sar Aigu?

-Havard