D&D's Origins in Gothic Literature

[chirine ba kal]

Ah, no, I don't think that 'Gothic Horror' as a literary genre had much - if anything - to do with the creation of D & D. It was too 'highbrow'. What you want to look at is the influence of Gothic Horror as depicted in Hammer Horror films of the 1970s, which were a much stronger influence on both Dave and Gary then the literature was.

The usual plot of a Hammer Studios film was "Group of adventurers go down into the dungeon of horrors to defeat the evil monster and save the fair maiden / the world / get the treasure."

The usual plot of a Dave Arneson / Gary Gygax D & D game was "Group of adventurers go down into the dungeon of horrors to defeat the evil monster and save the fair maiden / the world / get the treasure."

(By the way, Prof. Barker very bluntly said that the engravings of Piranesi were what he envisioned his Underworlds to look like - we were talking about the Tolek Kana Prison, near Bey Sy, and Phil pulled out his set of the 16 engravings from "Carceri d'invenzione" for us peasants to goggle at.)

If you wanted an example of a direct literary influence on the creation of D & D, try Fritz Leiber, Jr. and his Quarmall short story (with Harry Fischer), which both Dave and Gary told me that they had read. I think it's even mentioned in the literature, too.

- chirine

[Havard]

Good input Chirine!

I agree with your conclusion. I think my topic title was unfortunate as it lead to more abstract speculation than what may have been called for.

The usual plot of a Hammer Studios film was "Group of adventurers go down into the dungeon of horrors to defeat the evil monster and save the fair maiden / the world / get the treasure."

The usual plot of a Dave Arneson / Gary Gygax D & D game was "Group of adventurers go down into the dungeon of horrors to defeat the evil monster and save the fair maiden / the world / get the treasure."

Heh. Indeed those do sound familiar. And we have many quotes from Dave talking about those monster films he loved watching.

(By the way, Prof. Barker very bluntly said that the engravings of Piranesi were what he envisioned his Underworlds to look like - we were talking about the Tolek Kana Prison, near Bey Sy, and Phil pulled out his set of the 16 engravings from "Carceri d'invenzione" for us peasants to goggle at.)

That is cool. That is actually more of a connection than I would have guessed. Those engravings are definitely good inspiration. Although my dungeons never looked much like that. I might have to change that though!

If you wanted an example of a direct literary influence on the creation of D & D, try Fritz Leiber, Jr. and his Quarmall short story (with Harry Fischer), which both Dave and Gary told me that they had read. I think it's even mentioned in the literature, too.

Interesting, I dont think we had any specific conformation of Dave being into Fritz Leiber before. I guessed this was more of a Gary thing. Then again Greg said the group would read whatever fantasy or sci fi books they could get their hands on so...



-Havard

[finarvyn]

If you wanted an example of a direct literary influence on the creation of D & D, try Fritz Leiber, Jr. and his Quarmall short story (with Harry Fischer), which both Dave and Gary told me that they had read. I think it's even mentioned in the literature, too.

Interesting, I dont think we had any specific conformation of Dave being into Fritz Leiber before. I guessed this was more of a Gary thing.

Don't forget that back then there really weren't that many decent sources of mainstream fantasy literature. If you went to a bookstore, the "scifi/fantasy" section was very limited and composed of a few authors like Tolkien, Leiber, Howard, and Moorcock (it wasn't until the mid-1970's when Brooks' Shannara took off that we got such a huge influx of books) so it doesn't surprise me at all that Dave would have read all of the big names at the time.

[chirine ba kal]

If you wanted an example of a direct literary influence on the creation of D & D, try Fritz Leiber, Jr. and his Quarmall short story (with Harry Fischer), which both Dave and Gary told me that they had read. I think it's even mentioned in the literature, too.

Interesting, I dont think we had any specific conformation of Dave being into Fritz Leiber before. I guessed this was more of a Gary thing.

Don't forget that back then there really weren't that many decent sources of mainstream fantasy literature. If you went to a bookstore, the "scifi/fantasy" section was very limited and composed of a few authors like Tolkien, Leiber, Howard, and Moorcock (it wasn't until the mid-1970's when Brooks' Shannara took off that we got such a huge influx of books) so it doesn't surprise me at all that Dave would have read all of the big names at the time.

Back in those days, as the poster notes, we all read pretty much the same authors - Blish, Heinlein, Anderson, Dickson, Leiber, Simak, Kornbluth, Howard, Burroughs, Asimov, Lovecraft, "Doc" Smith, Merritt, and even that young lady who told stories to the Caliph every night for a thousand nights.

We didn't have what you call 'bookstores', until Uncle Hugo's opened; we had 'mail order', where the books arrived in plain brown paper wrappers so that the neighbors wouldn't know that we were reading that 'Skiffy' trash. I wonder - does anyone still read that old-timey stuff anymore? If you want to go looking for Dave (and Gary and Phil, for that matter) try looking there in those musty pages; they were there, reading and dreaming, back in the day when those pages were crisp and new...

- chirine