OD&D Clones?

[Havard]

How many Clones of OD&D exist out there?

I'm not sure this is true about these games, but I have heard of some projects attempting to make games maximizing Gygax' influence. Would this mean that games not seeking to do this would be more true to the input of Arneson, Kuntz and others?

-Havard

[aldarron]

How many Clones of OD&D exist out there?

I'm not sure this is true about these games, but I have heard of some projects attempting to make games maximizing Gygax' influence. Would this mean that games not seeking to do this would be more true to the input of Arneson, Kuntz and others?

-Havard

Interesting. Can you point to any of those projects? In any case, AD&D + UA and Perilous Journeys are the quintisentialy Gygaxianated RPGs.

Do you mean true clones of 3LBB Havard? The Big Brown Book almost fits the bill, except for lack of use of funny dice and perhaps the overemphasis of CHAINMAIL man to man. Probably the yet to be released Delving Deeper, of course.

But if you broaden the field to "inspired by" theres who knows how many. Even Basic Fantasy has large sections (magic items for ex) that replicates 3LBB's and not much else.

Are these games more true to Arneson etc? Yes, but usually not by much. AD&D looms large over most of the clones. LL, drawing on B/X may have the most cosmopolitan/least Gygaxian influence, but even that is barely noticeable rules wise.

The clone writers tend to look to Gygax and AD&D when structuring thier games. Hardly anybody looks to the FFC for rules for example, and more to the point, they don't look to emulate Arnesons inventiveness in the way they pitch the rules - more keep on the borderlands, less temple of the frog. Fred Funk's campaign is a great example of the open inventiveness Arneson inspired.

[Havard]

Interesting. Can you point to any of those projects? In any case, AD&D + UA and Perilous Journeys are the quintisentialy Gygaxianated RPGs.

Not offhand, it more an impression I am getting from reading discussions on other forums.

Do you mean true clones of 3LBB Havard? The Big Brown Book almost fits the bill, except for lack of use of funny dice and perhaps the overemphasis of CHAINMAIL man to man. Probably the yet to be released Delving Deeper, of course.

I dont necessarily limited to 3LBB. Certainly including the supplements, Supp II in particular fits the bill.

But if you broaden the field to "inspired by" theres who knows how many. Even Basic Fantasy has large sections (magic items for ex) that replicates 3LBB's and not much else.

Interesting. I would not have considered BFRP with connection to OD&D.

Are these games more true to Arneson etc? Yes, but usually not by much. AD&D looms large over most of the clones. LL, drawing on B/X may have the most cosmopolitan/least Gygaxian influence, but even that is barely noticeable rules wise.

The clone writers tend to look to Gygax and AD&D when structuring thier games. Hardly anybody looks to the FFC for rules for example, and more to the point, they don't look to emulate Arnesons inventiveness in the way they pitch the rules - more keep on the borderlands, less temple of the frog. Fred Funk's campaign is a great example of the open inventiveness Arneson inspired.

Good points all around here. It would definately be interesting with more games looking at the FFC, Temple of the Frog etc. I like how you are summing up some of the things that Arneson brought to the hobby

-Havard

[Tavis]

The clone writers tend to look to Gygax and AD&D when structuring thier games. Hardly anybody looks to the FFC for rules for example, and more to the point, they don't look to emulate Arnesons inventiveness in the way they pitch the rules - more keep on the borderlands, less temple of the frog. Fred Funk's campaign is a great example of the open inventiveness Arneson inspired.

One thing I find interesting about both KotB and TotF is the way they both seem geared up to be wargame scenarios as well as roleplaying ones - all those details about how many guards are in each castle are there for a reason that I feel was obvious to the old guys and never stated explicitly. I had the pleasure of playing Delta's Book of War scenario where we did mass combat against the Keep's forces and it was hella fun!

With Adventurer Conqueror King our goal is to use Gygax's genius for systemization and rationalization, and modern ideas about what should be explained by the rules, to enable and integrate all the stuff that's implicit in Arneson's work - so that adventures for our system would make clear how many cultivated acres it takes to maintain the Temple of the Frog, where you might be able to sell its pipe organ as a trade good and which markets would give you the best price, etc.

Where can I learn more about Fred Funk's campaign?

[Havard]

Tavis, about time you stopped by again

One thing I find interesting about both KotB and TotF is the way they both seem geared up to be wargame scenarios as well as roleplaying ones - all those details about how many guards are in each castle are there for a reason that I feel was obvious to the old guys and never stated explicitly. I had the pleasure of playing Delta's Book of War scenario where we did mass combat against the Keep's forces and it was hella fun!

Interesting comparison. When I last ran temple of the Frog, I used the Savage Worlds rules and we used that mass combat system for the initial assault on the temple as well. Then we let the PCs make the confrontations inside the temple alone, while the troops were disposing of scattered frog forces. I guess we were playing it closer to Arneson's vision than I realized? I guess there is no coincidence that the DA modules were published for the Companion rules...

With Adventurer Conqueror King our goal is to use Gygax's genius for systemization and rationalization, and modern ideas about what should be explained by the rules, to enable and integrate all the stuff that's implicit in Arneson's work - so that adventures for our system would make clear how many cultivated acres it takes to maintain the Temple of the Frog, where you might be able to sell its pipe organ as a trade good and which markets would give you the best price, etc.

All interesting stuff!

Where can I learn more about Fred Funk's campaign?

This thread is where you need to go

-Havard

[finarvyn]

When I last ran temple of the Frog, I used the Savage Worlds rules and we used that mass combat system for the initial assault on the temple as well. Then we let the PCs make the confrontations inside the temple alone, while the troops were disposing of scattered frog forces. I guess we were playing it closer to Arneson's vision than I realized? I guess there is no coincidence that the DA modules were published for the Companion rules...

Ironic that my first post in our newly formed "classic" section would be about Savage Worlds, but this comment grabbed me and I think I missed it the first time around.

I've fun Temple of the Frog under various rules sets, but it never occured to me to try SW. (I've hardly ever played SW, actually, but some friends swear by it.)What made it particularly interesting and helped it fit a Blackmoor style campaign?

[Havard]

Ironic that my first post in our newly formed "classic" section would be about Savage Worlds, but this comment grabbed me and I think I missed it the first time around.

I've fun Temple of the Frog under various rules sets, but it never occured to me to try SW. (I've hardly ever played SW, actually, but some friends swear by it.)What made it particularly interesting and helped it fit a Blackmoor style campaign?

Well, in some ways Temple of the Frog (the Supplement 2 version) is a great showcase for the transition between the older war gaming style and the modern D&D style adventures.

Dave's players have often mentioned leading larger units of soldiers into the dungeons. The Mass Combat System in Savage Worlds is less war-gamey and more reminiscent of the more abstract Warmachine System from BECMI D&D, but being able to use that system at least made me able to run various bands of mercenaries fighting across the Dismal Swamp untill the bigger siege of the Temple of the Frog.

In the final stage, I made sure that a smaller team, mainly the PCs and a few crucial NPCs, were able to get into the Temple itself and confront St. Stephen. Stephen actually managed to get away using a rocket pack, but at least the Temple was laid in ruins.

Some other things I found interesting with Savage Worlds was the ease of introducing high tech equipment, laser weapons, blackpowder guns and robots into the game since it is designed to handle multiple genres.


-Havard