Valley of the Kings

[aldarron]

Here is a quote from page 24 of the DAB Campaign Sourcebook (later repeated in the 4e book):
"High Thonian Lands: When the
Valley of the Kings stood strong, the
High Thonian nobles ruled much of
present-day Blackmoor. The bloodline’s
fall, as well as invasion and civil war,
eroded much of what was once the unified kingdom of
Blackmoor."

Valley of the Kings? Does this ring any bells for anyone from some other references?

This sounds like something of an alternate history, maybe not unlike the history seen in the D20 Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor. If feels like it comes from something Arneson might have said since I don't see how it could tie to TSR's DA material.

The text says "unified kingdom of Blackmoor", so the Valley of the kings would seem to be in Blackmoor (not Thonia or some other place) and it must be some sort of powerbase with fortreses or cities.

Perhaps Vestfold? Valley of the Ancients comes to mind, of course, but there is really nothing there. Hard to see that place as some kind of ancient power center.

Invasions could be the Peshwah invasions, and the civil war could well be the mage war, but where/what is the Valley of the Kings?

[Greg]

Normally I would assume this is a reference to the Valley of the Ancients in the distant past. Maybe the valley was in a more habitable state when Thonia first ruled Blackmoor, or maybe it had been the historic home of ancient kings and still was a center of power. Hence its name. But the Valley of the Ancients was formerly home to a great salt sea, so I'm not sure if all of this would make sense given that fact.

[Havard]

I speculated that this was a location in Thonia, representing perhaps the royal line of Genova.

But it could be a reference to something else.

-Havard

[aldarron]

Okay, we don't seem to know, I guess.

I think the Thonia location doesn't work very well. If the "bloodline" of High Thonians is only in power in the "Kngdom" of Blackmoor, when the "Valley of the Kings" stands strong, its hard to see it as someplace outside the kingdom, unless by kingdom we really mean duchy. I guess it could be a kingdom within an empire.

However, either way, we are left with a "kingdom of Blackmoor" ruled by Thonians some time in the distant past, presumably after the conquest of Robert !. Perhaps it was a brief moment of a century or so.

[Havard]

Okay, we don't seem to know, I guess.

I think the Thonia location doesn't work very well. If the "bloodline" of High Thonians is only in power in the "Kngdom" of Blackmoor, when the "Valley of the Kings" stands strong, its hard to see it as someplace outside the kingdom, unless by kingdom we really mean duchy. I guess it could be a kingdom within an empire.

However, either way, we are left with a "kingdom of Blackmoor" ruled by Thonians some time in the distant past, presumably after the conquest of Robert !. Perhaps it was a brief moment of a century or so.

I forgot our past discussion about multiple kingdoms within the Thonian Empire.

I would interpret "once the unified kingdom of Blackmoor". as "what was once a unified Thonian Empire" has now been eroded into several realms.

The recent history of Blackmoor is of a Kingdom that has recently declared independence from the Empire. So it makes the most sense that the kingdom that has fallen into resolve is "The Great Kingdom" aka Thonia.

The blood of Uther cannot be what has been weakened. It has to be the blood of the kings of old. I.e. Emperor Iyx represents the currently weak bloodline.

-Havard

[aldarron]

I would interpret "once the unified kingdom of Blackmoor". as "what was once a unified Thonian Empire" has now been eroded into several realms.

-Havard

Well sure, you can change anything to whatever you like and that's all good. I'm trying to make sense of what the thinking was behind what was actually written here.

I mean it is clearly saying Thonian nobles ruled over the "kingdom of Blackmoor" at a time when both "The bloodline" and "the valley of the kings" were strong - whatever they mean.

There's really no period in canon Blackmoor history that can mesh with that.

The only thing I can think of that might work is the first century or two right after Robert I. There is nothing that tells us what happened next. We sort of assume that's when the baron's come in, but it could be that Blackmoor is set up as a kingdom initially but later falls apart. That may explain why Ra-all can be made a king while Blackmoor is seemingly still a part of the GK.

Hmm. The crowns of Tonisborg might have some role to play here. Have to think about it.

[Havard]

Well sure, you can change anything to whatever you like and that's all good. I'm trying to make sense of what the thinking was behind what was actually written here.

I mean it is clearly saying Thonian nobles ruled over the "kingdom of Blackmoor" at a time when both "The bloodline" and "the valley of the kings" were strong - whatever they mean.

Just to clarify, I don't see it as me changing it. I think that is what Dave Arneson meant. Possibly a result of editing his own texts to remove references to The Great Kingdom.

There's really no period in canon Blackmoor history that can mesh with that.

The only thing I can think of that might work is the first century or two right after Robert I. There is nothing that tells us what happened next. We sort of assume that's when the baron's come in, but it could be that Blackmoor is set up as a kingdom initially but later falls apart. That may explain why Ra-all can be made a king while Blackmoor is seemingly still a part of the GK.

Hmm. The crowns of Tonisborg might have some role to play here. Have to think about it.

Also possible

-Havard