|
|
| [WotC Repost] Blackmoor Reborn |
|
Posted by: Havard - 11-24-2009, 06:32 AM - Forum: Archived Discussions (Members Only)
- No Replies
|
 |
From: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... oor_Reborn
Cthulhudrew Nov 16, 2005:
Man- I'm so glad that Reference Guide finally turned up- You have no idea how long I've been looking for it! I knew it existed and wasn't just in my imagination!
Anyway, something really interesting that I noticed in their future plans:
Quote: Blackmoor Reborn
Adventures in Blackmoor™ Boxed Set: This campaign set allows the return of the Blackmoor civilisation in the Known World. A bit of history: Blackmoor destroyed itself 1,000 years ago and was "cloned" inside the Hollow World sanctuary by the Immortals. The Blackmoorians' technological antics finally upset the Immortals who literally kick them out of the Hollow World. Blackmoor re-establishes itself on the Known World, after being copiously trashed by their Immortal (ex)- patrons. Blackmoor distinguishes itself from the traditional fantasy genre because of modern technology equipment that keeps showing up in their setting. These are rare, poorly understood items that become very dangerous in the wrong hands. In a nutshell, Blackmoor qualifies as "dark-age medieval fantasy with technology"!
BMa1 - Blackmoor #1 of 2, The Egg of Coot: This adventure takes traditional player characters from the usual Known World to the chaotic Land of Blackmoor. They discover the secret and dark wonders of Blackmoor and realise the risks they pose to their way of life. They must shut down one of the known sources of technology-the strange and mysterious Egg of Coot. But it is indeed a deadly place.
BMa2 - Blackmoor #2 of 2, The Doomsday Rod: An adventure for native Blackmoor characters. These adventurers hear of a secret weapons cache forgotten by the powerful entities of their land. Contrary to the wisdom of characters in the traditional Known World setting, these fellows want these lethal contraptions to fulfil their dreams of power! The player characters are allowed to get their hands on the deadly weapons, but in so doing trigger a doomsday machine. The characters must use (and hopefully deplete) their newly acquired equipment to destroy the frightening machine. A typical shoot'em up escapade for gun powder-crazed players!
So they were planning on bringing Blackmoor back to the Known World setting (or at least the Outer World). I imagine this idea was scrapped for similar reasons to the planned DA5: City of Blackmoor module.
In any case, this presents some intriguing ideas- we know the Blackmoor civilization survives in the Hollow World in the form of the Blacklore Elves, but the info here seems to indicate that there is at least one other remnant of Blackmoor civilization inside the Hollow World. The Blacklore elves' technology can't function outside the Valley, so it couldn't be their tech that causes trouble in the HW (unless they somehow finally managed to make it work), and the info doesn't indicate that it is only elves that return to the surface. So how would this scenario come about? Some ideas:
1) The Egg of Coot managed to finagle his/her/its way into the group of Blacklore Elves that were saved by the Immortals, evading their detection, and it is it that is responsible for finally making the breakthrough that allows Blacklore technology to function outside of the valley, prompting the Immortals to kick them out of the Hollow World. Perhaps the Egg of Coot is in collaboration with the Burrowers.
2) There is a second Blackmoor civilization within the Hollow World, far removed from the known civilizations there (and not previously described). Explorers from this culture eventually contacted the Blacklore civilization, and working together, the two groups managed to make their tech function normally again.
Other thoughts?
As to their Outer World antics, where would the Blackmoorians pop up? Would the Immortals return them to Skothar, and their Outer World origins? (Where they might possibly wake a hibernating Egg of Coot?)
Or might they return in the place of an Outer World civilization that recently disappeared- say, the Alphatian Sea?
***
Ripwanwormer:
It looks like this was supposed to take place in Mystara's ancient past - a mere 1000 years after the Rain of Fire.
***
Cthulhudrew:
Hmm. Good eye, I hadn't caught that. I'm wondering if that isn't supposed to be a typo, though. It doesn't really make sense that this would herald the return of Blackmoor to the Known World if it is supposed to still be set in the past. Nor would it really help to explain why (if Blackmoor "returned" c. 2000 BC) there isn't some more legacy of the Blackmoor culture in the prese wrote:
It looks like this was supposed to take place in Mystara's ancient past - a mere 1000 years after the Rain of Fire.[/quote]
Hmm. Good eye, I hadn't caught that. I'm wondering if that isn't supposed to be a typo, though. It doesn't really make sense that this would herald the return of Blackmoor to the Known World if it is supposed to still be set in the past. Nor would it really help to explain why (if Blackmoor "returned" c. 2000 BC) there isn't some more legacy of the Blackmoor culture in the present day.
***
Ivid:
Where did you get that info from? - Amazing, it is...
***
Cthulhudrew:
In the "Synn's Secret" thread, Agathokles posted a link to a reference guide that Bruce Heard had posted on the MML a long time ago, that was his product line proposal for the Mystara line (he was Line Editor/Manager or whatever the title was). It laid out the status of the Mystara line, and their plans for future products (though as you can see while reading it, those plans changed somewhat).
I'd been looking for that list for ages now, and no one could seem to point me in quite the right direction, but now I've found it! :evillaugh
***
Havard:
ndeed they were! The idea was cancelled because Mystara was cancelled. The ref guide lists this as an item that would have been published in the, then future of the setting IIRC. 
Quote: In any case, this presents some intriguing ideas- we know the Blackmoor civilization survives in the Hollow World in the form of the Blacklore Elves, but the info here seems to indicate that there is at least one other remnant of Blackmoor civilization inside the Hollow World. The Blacklore elves' technology can't function outside the Valley, so it couldn't be their tech that causes trouble in the HW (unless they somehow finally managed to make it work), and the info doesn't indicate that it is only elves that return to the surface. So how would this scenario come about? Some ideas:
I see this as confirmation that Blackmoor itself was preserved in the Hollow World. The HW boxed set mentions that Khoronus travelled back in time and preserved Blackmoor on a separate Plane, but placing it within the Hollow World makes alot more sense IMHO. It also means we can find new use for the DA modules, the FFC and the new ZGG products within Mystara.
Quote: 1) The Egg of Coot managed to finagle his/her/its way into the group of Blacklore Elves that were saved by the Immortals, evading their detection, and it is it that is responsible for finally making the breakthrough that allows Blacklore technology to function outside of the valley, prompting the Immortals to kick them out of the Hollow World. Perhaps the Egg of Coot is in collaboration with the Burrowers.
Again, I still think they were talking about the actual Blackmoor here. OTOH, having the Egg or one of its cousins work as manipulators with Blacklore society is interesting!
Quote: 2) There is a second Blackmoor civilization within the Hollow World, far removed from the known civilizations there (and not previously described). Explorers from this culture eventually contacted the Blacklore civilization, and working together, the two groups managed to make their tech function normally again.
This is the one I prefer. I even have a map setting up Blackmoor on the western (that is right side of the map) continent of the Hollow World. This would be the Blackmoor of the DA-series era, not its futuristic version, though the seeds of technology already exist here, notably with the Egg. I imagine the Afridhi, Thonians and other Blackmoor neighbours were also brought along for the ride, probably even the Wilderlands Campaign peoples if they are used. Afterall, we are talking about an entire continent here within the Hollow World that remains undeveloped.
Quote: I will try and get the map posted tomorrow.
As to their Outer World antics, where would the Blackmoorians pop up? Would the Immortals return them to Skothar, and their Outer World origins? (Where they might possibly wake a hibernating Egg of Coot?)
Or might they return in the place of an Outer World civilization that recently disappeared- say, the Alphatian Sea?
This has been bugging me too. Ideally, it should be somewhere that would allow us to use Dave Arneson's maps instead of having to create new ones. If we reverse East and West on the map ofcourse, it could appear on the western coast of Skothar.
My main objection to having it reppear in the Alphatian Sea is that I want Alphatia returned at a later stage...
***
LoZompatore:
I give you another hypothesis about HW Blackmoor: see if you like it.
I prefer to give up the idea of a "cloning" of Blackmoor in the HW by the Immortals, because in the HW boxed set we know that Blackmoor obliteration "catches the Immortals off-guard" and that they don't have enough time to save any consistent part of this civilization before its copmplete destruction.
Anyway, we know also that:
- Blackmoor pushed the beastmen far in the north of Brun, near the North Pole;
- The elven colony of Wendar/Glantri is very, very near to the old North Polar Opening (which was smaller than the present one and located in the Ethengar Khanates). This land was on the fringe o Blackmoor civilization, even if not yet colonized by Blackmoor, and the elves asked for permission of colonizing it. We know, also, that these elves were a particularly "high tecnology" group.
- The flying device of Serraine, a combined antigravity/jet propulsion flight system, is found by gnomes somewhere in the Altan Tepes south of Rockhome, which means that the Blackmoorians came nearer than the elves to the old North Polar Opening.
This is what the official modules say. They all hint about a strong presence of Blackmoor in the old Arctic regions.
SO, why can't we say that the Blackmoorians passed through the old North Polar Oening and that they explored the Hollow World in 3200-3000BC, founding a colony?
The Alphatians succeeded in doing this using magical devices, which are opposed in many ways by the anti-magical barriers posed by Immortals on the route to the HW. The Blackmoorians, using technological devices, shouldn't be affected by these limitations, so the exploration and colonization of the HW should have been a lot easier.
Moreover, a colony in the HW obviously is not affected by the Great Rain of Fire. Also, any "nuclear" device (in case) located in the colony shall not detonate, because the Mystara's magic field perturbation (which probably caused the explosion of this kind of devices) is softened by the anti magic aura of the Hollow World.
So we can have a Blackmoor colony in the HW, with Blackmoor technology still working (and people who know how to use it) and, maybe, also some of its very dangerous exploding devices. Cool, isn't it? 
In a thousand years or so, this colony grows powerful, and begins to heavily influence the other HW cultures, in violation of the Spell of preservation. So the Immortals decide to eradicate it. Its members, their memory changed and deprived of all their technology, could have been transported somewhere in the external world in 2000BC.
For the destination place, I suggest the Skhotar continent (where I located Blackmoor  ). Maybe, the Nentsun are the descendants of this colony, transplanted near their ancestral land...
***
Havard:
Interesting theories there Lo!
I still like the idea of the old medieval style Blackmoor being preserved in the Hollow World though. Here is a map I made of the Hollow World marking the location of the canon civilizations of that world as well as Blackmoor and its neighbours, the Wilderlands, the Empire of Bahlor and the Selhomarr Empire.
Let me know what you think! 
***
LoZompatore:
Not bad at all, Havard
I like also a lot the locations you decided for these cultures.
Surely, the fast technological rise of Blackmoorian civilization is enough to persuade the Immortals to preserve a more "classical" Blackmoor culture in the HW (throughout history, the Immortals transported and preserved also many less-menaced Outer World cultures: think about Sajarpur or the Merry Pirates) .
The Afridhi and Peshwah, in particular, are the most endangered cultures (the Afridhi undergo a mass migration to Thonia, not a truly invasion, so they are a very vulnerable society), so they should surely have been transported to the HW.
Thonian Empire is declining in 4000BC, so maybe this culture is already in the HW up to this date (think about Milenians).
As for Blackmoor, apart from Khoronus intervention, other Immortals could have decided to preserve its civilization as a part of Thonian Empire, or maybe, as an indipendent society just after the Great Rebellion of the Northern Provinces. Anyway, the preserved culture should be anterior to Beagle crash/discovery, and so, anterior also to DA1 events.
Apart from this, surely these cultures don't represent a threat to the other HW cultures. So, if we accept the plan proposed by Heard & Co., we should think that in the 3000-2000BC HW is present ALSO a technological Blackmoor culture.
If this culture is a colony of Outer World Blackmoor (such as the Heldannics and Alphatians outposts of modern time), its ancient position coud be located somewhere between Azcans and Neathars.
In fact, remember the axis rotation: the old north polar opening (Ethengar) is about halfway between Atruaghin palace (which lead to Azcan lands) and the Alphatian shaft in the Alatians (which lead to Alphatian Neatharum in Neathar lands).
So, if Blackmoor colonists passed the North Polar Opening, they should have found uninteresting Neathar tribes all around them (Azcans, Oltecs, Beatmen and many and other civilizations locations in the HW are post cataclysmic). Maybe the colonists stood in proximity of old North Polar Opening, mantaining contact with the elves of Wendar/Glantri and other Blackmoorians outposts in the Arctic regions. The Heldannic Knights do the same in modern times, referring to the modern South Polar Opening.
When, after the GRoF, the Immortals began to transplant Azcans and Oltecs, this region became far more interesting (given also the fact that Blackmoorians and Oltecs never met in the Outer World - see HW boxed set), and so the (stranded) Blackmoorian colonists could have started to influence these cultures. Incurring in Immortals wrath by 2000BC.
Of couse, this is simply my personal wiew of the whole thing 
***
Mortepierre:
Quote: Ivid]OTOH, destroying the Egg would have been as un-Arnesonian as the Greyhawk Wars were un-Gygaxian... wrote:
OTOH, destroying the Egg would have been as un-Arnesonian as the Greyhawk Wars were un-Gygaxian...
Careful with that kind of reasoning, Raf. If you take a look at the articles by E.G.G. & R.J Kuntz (Dragon #56, 57, 63, and 65), you'll see the Wars C.S. created were bound to happen sooner or later (although I'll grant you they probably would have ended differently if E.G.G. had been at the helm).
***
Havard:
Going against the EGG might not neccesarily mean that it would be destroyed. The EGG afterall has proved to be extremely resiliant. However, for the players to get some sensation of success at the end of the adventure, they might be able to drive the EGG away, into hiding or exile, so it wont bother people again for a century or so...
***
Ivid:
Quote: Mortepierre]Careful with that kind of reasoning, Raf. If you take a look at the articles by E.G.G. & R.J Kuntz (Dragon #56, 57, 63, and 65), you'll see the Wars C.S. created were bound to happen sooner or later (although I'll grant you they probably would have ended differently if E.G.G. had been at the helm).
Yeah, you're right, I see. - Still, it may be a similar situation - without owning the early Greyhawk sources, what I learned from the material I saw hints strongly that such conflicts like the Greyhawk Wars and in BM, the final war against the Egg were things that were esteemed to happen sooner or later. In the case of Greyhawk, the original author didn't come to carry it out himself, and with Blackmoor, things would have been quite the same, if that list is to be taken by the letter. That doesn't mean the results were (or would have been, in BM' case) bad, but maybe different from what the original designers had had in mind. (Actually, post-war Greyhawk was the period of the setting I enjoyed most.)
While Gygax never came to ellaborate us his vision, Arneson now has the chance. - I am pretty interested how this will go on, as for now, it doesn't really seem that the Egg will play a major role in current campaign development...
***
Ivid:
Congrats to another great map, Havard!
Are those *my* JG Wilderlands, or some regions that originate in the Mystara setting, btw?
The Egg is for me personally, quite a problem for the setting right now. Without it, BM looses a lot of charm, yet, one has to come near it sooner or later, because it's almost ever-present..
And really, now every story that reveals the truth about the egg would sound banal after dozens of years of theory... Personally, I hope that the new ZG line at least hints what one can do about it... I'd like my party to pay a visit to Ohmfet some day, so a bit of offical backing could come in quite handy...
***
Ripwanwormer:
The Blackmoor that is recreated in Mystara is a Dark Age setting, like Dave Arneson's original campaign and DA1, but it has buried technology that keeps resurfacing.
This says to me that the Spell of Preservation prevented the Dark Age Blackmoor (which might have been put in the Hollow World as soon as it became "modernized" on the surface, rather than waiting until the Rain of Fire) from being entirely changed by technological advancement, but it didn't prevent this civilization from continuing to make advancements. For example, some Blackmoorians might invent machines that allow cities to fly, but thanks to the Spell of Preservation not all Blackmoorians would agree to live in them.
Once new advancements changed a substantial number of Blackmoorians' lives, the Spell of Preservation would also prevent the immortals from changing things back. Because Blackmoor was a place on the cusp of advancement, there was no way to preserve Dark Age Blackmoor without also preserving the potential for them to invent things that would change the way of life of not just many Blackmoorians, but potentially civilizations across the Hollow World. This couldn't be allowed.
Therefore, the Spell of Preservation was suspended long enough to remove Blackmoor civilization from the Hollow World entirely and put it somewhere else. Once it was on the surface, outside the grasp of the Spell of Preservation, the immortals could freely destroy the advanced technological elements of Blackmoor society, leaving the Dark Age Blackmoorians living among the ruins left by a more advanced society that they had, thanks to the Spell of Preservation, learned to shun.
***
|
|
|
|
| [ZGG Repost] How bring PCs to Blackmoor? |
|
Posted by: Havard - 11-24-2009, 06:32 AM - Forum: Archived Discussions (Members Only)
- No Replies
|
|
http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=161
Desdichado (2005):
Hello,
What was there first, the chicken or the egg...? –Errh, a rather philosophical question from my part this time:
Now, since Blackmoor is set somewhere isolated, and virtually at the end of the world, how do foreign low-level PCs end up there? – For the usual route involves so many dangers that a person hailing from a foreign land would meet with so many adventures on the way north that *it* would likely already be a skilled adventurer when he or she arrives in the kingdom.
Moreover, what could be a motivation for foreigners to visit cold Blackmoor with all its dangers?
Yours,
Rafael
PS: The background for my question is that I am usually playing with gamers, who haven’t played in BM earlier and don’t know the setting. So, I usually let them play outsiders that are new to the lands of the North and so can learn about the setting as I present it to them. Smile R
****************
Havard:
Interesting question Rafael!
Some ideas:
Getting to Blackmoor: The best way to get to Blackmoor without the journey there being so challenging that the PCs are experienced heroes by the time they get there is if they travel there in the company of someone else. It could be in the company of a caravan (Complete with guards), escorted by Thonian (or other) military forces (perhaps they are deserters from the Thonian army?), or by sea.
Why go to Blackmoor? Who wouldnt want to go to Blackmoor!? Seriously though, I can think of a few reasons, which may or may not be tied with how they actually go there. The Thonian Army deserters idea is one that I have already mentioned. Or perhaps they have family in Blackmoor. Or they could be merchants or mercenaries trying to make a fortune there when the civilized world is full of already established trading houses and merc companies. Or, they could be left in Archils by a ship captain who couldnt afford bringing those extra sailors back to Thonia that he had brought all the way north. Escaped Skandaharian slaves is another idea. What else?
****************
Desdichado:
Thank you for those great ideas, my friend!
I am using the *sailor arc* for my current game, and I believe I'll take the *slaves arc* for my next one! I usually focus on the kingdom itself and the conflict with the Afridhi, so the Skandaharians play only a minor role in my game usually. But I've got to change that! Smile
*********
Adam:
Don't forget magic!! The Comeback Inn has all those strange visitors, maybe it "picks" some folk up. If you like the real high-fantasy side of DAB
-Adam
************************
Kythrian:
houldn't that be 'Which came first, the chicken or the Egg?' in this case? Wink
Anyway... good ideas above. Another that could be fun is to have the 'epic wizard with no name' show up on their doorstep, say 'you're needed elsewhere, be ready for adventure' and then just greater teleport them to the North. Then say 'bye!' and leave. Not only does it give them a reason to show up, it gives them an NPC to deal with in the future. Is this a Cabal member or a renegade? Maybe a thrall of the Egg? DM's choice there.
*****************
Desdichado:
...Or just have the party adventure somewhere in the nowwhere, then let seem the a flash of lightning, and next having them lying on a teleport disk in Vestfold, and have some confused wizard saying >Oops!
|
|
|
|
| [ZGG Repost] Technology in Blackmoor |
|
Posted by: Havard - 11-24-2009, 06:31 AM - Forum: Archived Discussions (Members Only)
- No Replies
|
|
http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=204
Havard:
Over at Dragonsfoot we have been discussion how to mix technology and fantasy and avoiding a sense of conflict between genres. Any suggestions to how to do this in a Blackmoor campaign? How much do the technological elements of Blackmoor come in to play in your campaigns? And which parts? (Clockwork, Steamtech, Space Ships?)
**************************
Havard (2006):
This keeps coming up when I'm thinking about Blackmoor.
For a while I thought about running a Tech free Blackmoor, setting it at a time before too much inventing takes place.
Although it could be cool, I've started thinking it wouldn't really be Blackmoor though.
But I still havent decided what role tech will play IMC and how it should be portrayed. I am looking for something tha feels nothing like Star Trek, thats for sure.
What role does tech play IYC? And what does it look like?
*********************************
gsvenson:
I have always viewed technical items as "magic" items, describing them as magic wands, rods, armor, cloaks, amulets, etc. So a rifle might be a rod of lightening bolts, a flak vest might be a magic breast plate, battledress might be magic plate armor, etc.
Greg
******************************
Desdichado:
My own BM is very steam-heavy... My own favourite character, Merowech Rednose, a gnome, bears two large revolvers and rides... a small steam-tank... Wink
**************************
Spikey:
See?! It's cool to have clockwork monster of a gnome!
*********************
Desdichado:
Actually, Rotfoot and Merowech are pretty similar types of characters - I would have introduced *my gnome* into the campaign, hadn't you popped up. Wink
****************
Spikey:
Heh, after playing a certain episode I suggest you should just put him in anyway.
**********************
Desdichado:
Merowech currently runs an inn near Jackport. Maybe Kalen could have convinced him to join the Tenian Rebellion out of some odd reason, like... "They brew a very good beer there..
*****************************
Havard:
Hmmm...
After reading your comments, I am thinking that keeping Steam Tech a central part of the setting will make it easier to also include other types of technology, like items found in the Valley of Ancients, and the Temple of the Frog for instance.
I will also consider these items "magical", being within the realm of understanding of Wizards, though most will be usable, and even possible to repair/modify by non-wizards.
Taking this further, I'm thinking about making technology also into the main feature of the Egg of Coot. Its slaves often in actuality cyborged zombies or the like. The Egg will present a dark form of technology, perhaps even hinting at the direction Blackmoor's technology could take in the future...
On a more day to day basis, can someone help me with ideas for technology not used for combat, but for everyday purposes?
***************
Desdichado:
Apart from mining engines, the most common form steam tech shows up in my game is... TOYS! Smile
****************
|
|
|
|
| [ZGG Repost] Temple of the Frog? |
|
Posted by: Havard - 11-24-2009, 06:30 AM - Forum: Archived Discussions (Members Only)
- Replies (4)
|
|
Havard:
Rumour has it, the Temple of the Frog has been mentioned as a future release over at EnWorld. Want to share any details here?
I know I would love to see that book!
*****************************
Desdichado:
Smile Very nice - that would save me the conversion work...
*****************************
DClingman:
A further announcement will be made when the time is right. We have other larger announcements to make before then. Smile Soon folks, soon!
************
Descdichado:
I am currently working something out about Glendower Dungeon, based on the maps in the FFC, and involving a lich lord problem the city has.
I usually don't like over-long dungeons as well, but I like this concept of an unfinished tomb.
I'll PM you some more details ASAP.
*******************
-Havard
|
|
|
|
| [ZGG Repost] City of Blackmoor |
|
Posted by: Havard - 11-24-2009, 06:30 AM - Forum: Archived Discussions (Members Only)
- No Replies
|
|
http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=230
Falconer (Apr 2006):
I know that Zeitgeist has many potential products on the drawing board, but I wanted to add my vote and prod to put the long awaited "DA5" City of Blackmoor somewhere up at top! I can dearly use this in my game, as it is often visited by my players and quickly becoming their headquarters. So far I've had to play it on the fly using FFC, but I could use more info. Regards.
****************
Havard:
Can I say, 'me too'? I think this is the supplement *everyone* is waiting for.
Do you have any thoughts on what such a book should contain?
************************
Spikey:
Hmm, I'm trying to decide how I feel about this one getting into production before the clockwork book. I think it is best we have a dual at dawn.
************
-Havard
|
|
|
|
| [ZGG Repost] Saruman's Orcs |
|
Posted by: Havard - 11-24-2009, 06:29 AM - Forum: Archived Discussions (Members Only)
- No Replies
|
|
http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=168
Havard:
Orcs of the White hand and Orcs of Mordor were mentioned in the FFC, but removed along with the other Tolkien references in later products. Is there any way we can make use of this in the current campaign? What would Mordor and Saruman translate to in the current Blackmoor setting? The Orcs of Mordor could be translated to the Stormkiller Orcs, but what about the Orcs of the White Hand? Would they differ stat-wise?
*****************************
Desdichado:
I am not sure what to make about all the Tolkienian references, but I am thinking of doing a campaign set in Rhun, another Tolkienian country borrowed by DA, that was devastated by Marfeldt the Barbarian... Would be interesting to know what has happened over there since then...
************************
Havard:
Where is the Rhun of Blackmoor anyway?
As for the other Tolkenian references, the idea would not so much be to make Blackmoor more Tolkienesque, but to change them into a Blackmoor feel, yet use them as ideas for fleshing out new parts of the setting.
****************************
Desdichado:
I think nothing is said directly - but, judging from the hints given in the FFC, I believe it's eastwards. Smile Now, I would be curious to find out if the game ever was set in Rhun, or if that land was only used as a random name for background...
************************************
Havard:
Indeed! Who played Marfelt anyway?
Having Rhun be to the east doesn't really make sense, unless its on the other side of the North Sea. Ofcourse it is located to the far east in Middle Earth. OTOH, if it was to the west, perhaps it was actually the homeland of the Afridhi who just wanted to stay there peacefully untill Marfelt came along and ruined everything? Perhaps he is to blame for all of this???
Back to Sarumans Orcs, assuming that there are indeed at least two important fractions between the Blackmoorian Orcs, parallell to the situation in Tolkien's world; one serving an evil deity, possibly their creator, and the other serving a powerful wizard. How would this fit with the Stormkiller Orcs? Or are they the third party, parallelled to the Orcs of Moria? In any case, who is the evil deity, and who is the evil wizard?
********************************************
Desdichado:
I personally have placed a land called *Rhun* east of the nothern sea. I haven't detailed it, except for what was to find in the FFC. - I want to do a Columbus-like campaign to there some day...
As to the orcs, hmmm... I think a super-wizard hidden somewhere there would be just too cheap... IMC, the Iron Duke is one of the orcs' most powerful allies... Maybe one could build up something around this person?
*************************
gsvenson:
(who played Marfeldt?)
A guy named Marshall Hegfeldt. He is the person who introduced me to Dave Arneson and his gaming group in 1969 at the University of Minnesota, before the meetings moved to Dave's basement. I lost track of him by 1974 or so.
**********************************
Havard:
Thanks for sharing this Greg! Marfeldt is one of the Blackmoor characters who most likely, in addition to Svenny ofcourse will play a central role in my planned Blackmoor campaign.
Do you have any anectdotes or memories you could share about this character or even Hegfeldt himself that could help GMs wanting to use Marfeldt as an NPC?
Oh, and do you know anything about this "Rhun" mentioned in Marfeldt's background?
*****************************************
gsvenson:
Dave ran games for multiple groups through the week. I don't actually ever remember doing an adventure with Marfeldt. I can't recall any specific traits of Marshall's that would be helpful. Time clouds my memory. I have no special knowledge of "Rhun", either. Sorry.
*****************************************
Falconer:
You should be aware that older versions of Chainmail had this quote on p. 30: "According to the best authority, there are at least five kinds (tribes or perhaps clans) of [orcs]. These are: 1) Orcs of the (Red) Eye, 2) Orcs of Mordor, 3) Orcs of the Mountains, 4) Orcs of the White Hand, and 5) Isengarders."
Of course, this is straight from Tolkien, but in Tolkien 1=2 and 4=5, so there are really only three "tribes".
Not that this will shed a lot of light on the discussion, but I think it's interesting to know.
In the AD&D Monster Manual, Gygax changed it to: "Known orc tribes include the following: Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Death Moon, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, Leprous Hand, Rotting Eye, Dripping Blade." Just another cool bit of old-school lore which I don't think has ever been used much or at all. Regards.
*************************************************
Desdichado:
Very interesting info... I wonder about the exact background of those tribes as presented in Greyhawk...
*****************************************
Falconer:
Straying a little off topic, but interesting. In the module WG4 The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun on page 8, Gygax writes as part of an encounter of 131 orcs (plus more than that female and young): "These are Orcs of the Rotting Eye tribe, belonging to the clan of the Jagged Knife. The standard is a huge, glaive-like knife blade with a serrated edge. This blade is colored a rust red and atop a long shaft, beneath it being the circular targe depicting a rotting eye colored yellow-green and red. This symbol is repeated on the shields of the soldiers, with the jagged-bladed knife seeming to grow out of the rotting eye device. Guards and ranking figures wear dull red clothing. The sub-chief, shaman, and chief also have cloaks of yellowish green, the chief's being striped with red, the shaman's merely bordered with that color."
According to Dragon #57, the Vile Rune and the Death Moon are based in Bone March. Between Deities & Demigods, Unearthed Arcana, and Monster Mythology you can read of various Orkish gods corresponding to different tribes thus:
Vile Rune = Luthic
Death Moon = Shargaas
Broken Bone = Bahgtru
Evil Eye = Gruumsh
Leprous Hand = Yurtrus
Dripping Blade = Ilneval
If you care for those pantheons. Regards.
********************************************
Falconer:
I once designed a campaign based in (Tolkien's) Rhûn and briefly ran it. If anyone's interested, I can elaborate on it and we can see how it can fit in with the Blackmoor world, since official info does not seem to be forthcoming. Regards.
******************************************
gsvenson:
In the original Blackmoor game, the local orc tribe was known as the Orcs of the Black Hand. Their leader was King Frederick the First. King Frederick was played by one of my friends, Fred Funk. They had a settlement on the 10th level of the dungeon under Blackmoor castle. They managed to sack the city of Blackmoor with help from the Egg of Coot while most of the player characters were off on a different adventure...
******************************************
Desdichado:
hank you for that Greyhawk goodness! Smile
I wonder if they'll include the Orc settlement in the DABM book... *Gotta look it up in my FFC.* - What might happen in MY BM Dungeon campaign? - Maybe yet another attempt of the orcs to conquer the city...? Twisted Evil
As to Rhune, please go on with that Falconer. Since Greg's reading, I can't really disclose why I am interested in that, but obviously, it could be very useful for my PbP.
Just as a note: *My* Rhune would bear very close similarities to Frank Mentzer's Aquaria setting...
********************************************
Havard:
Alot of goodness in this thread indeed!
Falconer: What Blackmoor gods would correspond to those Greyhawk ones, if any?
Des: Making use of Aquaria here is interesting. I got the files from Frank, but I still only have a vague concept of what Aquaria is about. Except that he uses the OD&D cosmology for it...
Greg: I knew King Funk was named after a player, but I didnt know his first name, or that you played with him. So Orcs were allowed as Pcs back then? Thanks for sharing yet another of your gaming moments with Dave!
*****************************************
gsvenson:
Another PC, John Soukup, played a balrog. He and Fred were feuding at one point and the balrog joined Svenny and the gang for a raid on King Frederick's throne room. It was a glorious battle, as I recall, Svenny killed 113 orcs and the balrog out did him. But, alas, the balrog died and Svenny had to be carried out while drifting in and out of conciousness (giving my companions directions as to how to get out when I was awake...). We even had to leave most of the loot...
In the early days, we would have "good" and "bad" teams of players contending with each other. The teams would take turns meeting with Dave during the gaming sessions. We would have board games, miniatures games or card games going in another room to keep busy while we waited for our turn.
**********************************
Desdichado:
Smile I use Aquaria just as a *default* setting - the more detail material was all borrowed from Greyhawk... What I got from the web is actually not more than two or three maps and a sort of campaign journal, but it works... Somehow... Laughing
BTW, since you're a Wilderlander too, Frank stated once that he used the old JG map of Valon as a first model for Aquaria.
*Note to Greg: NEVER EVER read the Aquaria pdfs... Wink*
******************************
-Havard
|
|
|
|
| [ZGG Repost] Temple of the Frog: Comparing Versions |
|
Posted by: Havard - 11-24-2009, 06:29 AM - Forum: Archived Discussions (Members Only)
- No Replies
|
|
http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=260
Havard:
Over at dragonsfoot.org we are discussing the differences between the two existing versions of the Temple of the Frog and making speculations about what ZGG's TotF will be like. Here are some of my thoughts:
Looking at Stephen Rock from the original module, it is left to interpretation what his exact nature is. He could be either of interstellar or interplanar origin (or both), though his equipment does suggest that it is high tech. It is also stated that he was part of a group sent to Blackmoor to police against other outsiders, but now is working for himself. Now, this doesnt entirely fit with the Beagle crew, since they, according to DA3 crashed there, but otherwise it sounds to me like David Ritchie was doing a pretty good job at expanding on Arneson's original concepts.
Space Aliens were part of Arneson's Blackmoor, and they have an even stronger presence in the Wilderlands setting, which had an impact on Blackmoor when it was published by the Judges Guild.
OTOH, it should be easy to replace aliens with Outsiders from other planes be they demons or more interestingly some other outer planar group (Diaboli?).
I suspect the upcoming TotF deals with the Temple before the arrival of Stephen Rocklin. Perhaps the heroes are sent to clear out the Temple after froglin are found sneaking around in Blackmoor town? I really liked that Froglin illustration from the main DAB book.
Rob Kuntz's recollections of his game with Gary and Dave in the City of the Gods could also shed some light on Dave's original visions of all this:
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/canonfire/OJ_06.pdf
Thoughts on any of this?
Which version of TotF do people prefer, and why?
***********************************
Falconer:
I always got the strong impression that the "outer space" of Blackmoor was meant to be more or less the universe of Star Trek. What you say about policing the planet from outsiders seems to point to the Prime Directive, and the "U.S.S." Beagle is clearly another clue.
I wish I could contribute in a more meaningful way to this discussion. I do own DA2 and have looked through it with an eye towards running it soon, but my instincts are that I will have to scrap it in favor of the Supplement II version. My Blackmoor is based on FFC, anyway (as opposed to DA1 or DABM), so the original Temple will be more along the lines of what I'm looking for, in the first place. Really what turns me off of DA2 is the extensive post-DL style of extended "storytelling" early in the module and present throughout. Rather than simply present the dungeon for exploration and leaving it up to the DM and players how it turns out, DA2 seems to come with its own prepackaged idea of how exactly this locale should be utilized and how the adventure should turn out. I think I'll mine DA2 for ideas and perhaps use its maps, but from what I've seen, the original is more along the lines of what I'm looking for.
Besides, if you're going to run the first scenario ever published, why not run it AS ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED? :-) Regards.
************************************
Desdichado:
TotF is on my list of adventures to play -but rather than to wait for a new version from ZG, I will indeed use the legendary Supplement II - and work my very own campaign out of it. Twisted Evil
********************************
Havard:
This is very clear in the DA series yes, but slightly more obscured in the Supplement II version, wouldnt you agree? BTW its FSS Beagle, not USS. Still, when the F stands for Federation that doesnt make it any less Star Trek-ish does it? Wink
The main advantage of DA2 is that there is just so much more stuff in there! Ofcourse, the whole setup probably doesnt work very well for most DMs, but its easily scrapped or replaced. Speaking of mining modules, I've found that modules are most successfully run (at least by me) when I change them enough to make them feel like my own. That makes it easier to improvise. I dont long for the days when published modules were just dungeons since I can make that part myself, while coming up with plots and things are not that easy. For me anyway Smile
************************************
-Havard
|
|
|
|
| [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities |
|
Posted by: Havard - 11-24-2009, 06:28 AM - Forum: Archived Discussions (Members Only)
- No Replies
|
|
http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=225
Havard:
Over at the Mystara Mailinglist, someone asked me about the deities of Blackmoor and which Mystaran immortals these might correspond to for those trying to combine the settings.
The Immortals in Question are the following:
Zugzul - given
Thanatos - given
Ordana - given
Protius - Patron of the Sea and Sea Races.
Faunus - given
Terra - Patroness of Earth
Ka - Preservation of old cultures, lizardfolk. Good immortal.
Korotiku - Trickster, Spider
Hel - My guess is Hela
Calitha - Patroness of Sea-going elves.
Kagyar -Patron of Brute Men (Cavemen) and Smithing/Crafts. Later of Dwarves.
Valerias - Love (Chaotic)
Verthandi - Time, Precognition
Ixion - Sollus is my guess for this one.
Any thought for who of Blackmoor's pantheon may be considered counterparts for these?
|
|
|
|
| [ZGG Repost] Which NPCs should be central IMC? |
|
Posted by: Havard - 11-24-2009, 06:27 AM - Forum: Archived Discussions (Members Only)
- No Replies
|
|
Havard (May 03, 2006 - 01:50 PM):
http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=261
If I'm getting a new Blackmoor campaign started it wont truly be Blackmoor unless I'm involving some of the classic Blackmoor NPCs will it?
Toska Rusa, the Egg, Thorsen: These are ideal villains, easy to get into the campaign and easy to use.
King Uther, Fletcher William: These are typical employers of the PCs. I dont think they should get to meet the king untill they have made something out of themselves, but he will be there in the background while the Fetch...fetches!
Svenny: Ofcourse I'll have to bring Svenny in! I'd say Svenny is an ideal ally for the PCs, and perhaps their first friend in the Regency Council. He can be someone to inspire and make the players want to become like...ofcourse many players dont like that kind of NPC...
Mardfeld: I like Marfeld, and even more after I read Zimriel's speculations about this character. In many ways he can be used like Svenny, as a friend and mentor and ally, but ofcourse one day should become an enemy of Blackmoor..that will be a day to fear...
Any other NPCs I just have to bring in? Smile
***************************************
Gsvenson:
This isn't exactly what you were asking, but here goes.
Svenny's closest companions in the early days were the Blue Rider, Mello, Brother Richard, Bozero, the Bishop and DeBelfry along with a group of people who didn't stick with it long enough to make a name for themselves.
Also, King Frederick of the orcs of the Black Hand still has a village in the dungeon under Blackmoor castle.
Greg
|
|
|
|
| [ZGG Repost] Hobb...er, Halflings in Blackmoor |
|
Posted by: Havard - 11-24-2009, 06:27 AM - Forum: Archived Discussions (Members Only)
- Replies (1)
|
|
For various reasons I will be reposting various threads from the ZGG forum here to make sure they are not lost should anything happen to the forum there. Also, it can give an opportunity to bring back some old topics into discussion.
From: http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=163
MrFilthyIke (2005):
Hi all,
I'm thinking up a Hobbit, I mean HALFLING character for Blackmoor, and am wondering what is a good location to plant the "shire" my character will be from. Somewhere Tolkeinesque, but where a Halfling might have to raise sword and shield to defend their home.
Any ideas? Havard? Wink
_________________
S.M. Murphy
mrfilthyike (at) gmail (dot) com
***************************************************************
DClingman
Booh is the place to be if you are halfling. There are alot of hills and the halflings very much enjoy the climate.
**************************************
MrFilthyIke
I thought that was Docrae territory??
This is a fat little Hobbit I'm thinking of.
******************
DClingman:
The Docrae did settle in Booh, but it was halfing territory long before that. So they are both present, but if you asked the average Blackmoorian, he would say "Halfings live in Booh!"
******************************
Greg Svenson:
I heartily agree that the "halflings" are from the Tower of Booh. That's where Mello the mightist of the hobbits was from (we could call him a Hobbit back in those days, before the Tolkien family objected).
MrFilthyIke:
Cool, I'll look into the Booh section of my book.
****************
Spikey:
You could always join the stagnant ranks of the swamp gnomes ...
********
MrFilthyIke:
Gnomes...bleh
***
Havard:
Others beat me to this one Ike Wink
Anyways, this got me thinking. The fans seemed to welcome the fact that BM halflings represented a return to the old school hobbit types rather than the slender/warlike 3E variant.
However, I am wondering if the Blackmoor Halflings have anything that sets them apart from hobbits of other (non 3e) worlds? Or are people comfortable with the Tolkien stereotypes? Could they remain within this comfortable image and still posess some curious habits that set them apart from the rest, making them uniquely Blackmoorian?
***********************************
DClingman:
Well they are much more prone to travelling than Tolkien's hobbits. In fact, some of the largest distributors in Blackmoor are owned and operated by halflings. That doesn't jive with Tolkien. I would also suggest that they are more prone to a "larger view" of the world rather than just focusing on Booh and South Pim.
******
|
|
|
|
|
