Timeline Redux I: Ancient period

[Havard]

Alright. First of all, my appologies for not contributing more to this thread when it was first posted. There were some specific reasons outside of the forum that prevented me from going into as much detail here as I would have liked.

Honestly though if you really think any particular reference is wrong, please check the work, cite a reference or offer a more logical bit of reasoning or compelling narrative and we can talk about it. It is what I was hoping would happen when I posted it. The kind of back and forth that leads to polished text. I was hoping to spark all kinds of debate and commentary from you guys ‘cause this is fun stuff. Instead it’s like Ross timeline is being treated as textus receptus or carved in stone or something.

I think it is easier to discuss this subject here than in the other thread. I recommended the gazetteer to a new fan not just because of the timeline, but for everything that was compiled there. I know it seemed like that, and for that I appologize, but I do not hold Ross work beyond criticism. It was rather that in the context of that thread, I still believe it is a very useful resource.

I think Rafe has a point about the position Ross's Gazetteer having among the fandom. I dont know which fans you are used to hanging out with, but I am not used to this level of accuracy in research on fan material. Usually references arent given at all, or just to the works. More importantly, it has been around for a long time as the sole inspiration for Blackmoor fandom. This does not mean it cannot be scrutinized of course, but it means I will be hesitant to replace one arbitrary date there for another arbitrary date.

Its far simpler (occams razor) and truer to the text to treat Robert 1st not as founder of the Thonian empire (that’s Rafe’s idea I think – its not written anywhere), but as a king of a kingdom or empire called Geneva and as the founder of Blackmoor as a fief in the circa 400 - 450 range than it is to explain 400+ years of nearly empty Blackmoor timeline.

I agree that existing timelines (Ross and ZGG) are not clear to exactly when Robert I lived.

Really, I’m not trying to say that no one should have Robert 1st as the founder of the Great Empire in their games if that’s the way you like it, – all I’m trying to point out is that there is another way of looking at it that is better grounded in and more fundamental to the texts and introduces a new bit of potentially interesting geography (kingdom of Geneva).

This is possible. However, if we go back to the C&C Society, you will find that there was only one king (Rob Kuntz) and the other members with campaigns of their own were given titles like Baron or Earl. Blackmoor only becomes a Kingdom when Uther breaks away from the Great Kingdom.

I know that you are working to flesh out the Temple of Id era, which is a really fascinating time for a campaign setting. However, personally I would be interested in developing two historical eras: The Time of the Id Crisis (ca 500) and the Founding of Thonia. Perhaps it would be beneficial could shift our debate a little away from the exact time of these events and into more detail of which forces and personalities that would have been at work? That way we could borrow ideas from eachother even if our specific visions differ somewhat?

-Havard

[aldarron]

I dont know which fans you are used to hanging out with, but I am not used to this level of accuracy in research on fan material. Usually references arent given at all, or just to the works. More importantly, it has been around for a long time as the sole inspiration for Blackmoor fandom. This does not mean it cannot be scrutinized of course, but it means I will be hesitant to replace one arbitrary date there for another arbitrary date.

Heh, well, in terms of fictional places, I think this is the only fan site I've ever hung out on for long... Otherwise it would be mostly archaeology and geneaology and "Harris matrix" discussions I would be modeling my approach on, that and Tolkiens timelines. Guess that kinda explains a lot.

However, if we go back to the C&C Society, you will find that there was only one king (Rob Kuntz) and the other members with campaigns of their own were given titles like Baron or Earl. Blackmoor only becomes a Kingdom when Uther breaks away from the Great Kingdom.

That's interesting - didn't know it. My sense though is that "king" was a title Arneson had no problem assigning to various persons, as in earl or king of Vestfold, and the king who sent the blue rider on his mission to route out the rogue wizards, not something necessarily reserved for "the great King".

I know that you are working to flesh out the Temple of Id era, which is a really fascinating time for a campaign setting. However, personally I would be interested in developing two historical eras: The Time of the Id Crisis (ca 500) and the Founding of Thonia. Perhaps it would be beneficial could shift our debate a little away from the exact time of these events and into more detail of which forces and personalities that would have been at work? That way we could borrow ideas from eachother even if our specific visions differ somewhat?

-Havard

Sounds good. Thonia's founding is a complete mystery to me. My incliniation is to maybe draw some inspiration from the Ivyd the undying, or Karemekos. I dunno. There's got to be a key source that it makes sense to link to for this.

[Rafael]

Check our actual game thread for a pretty detailed description (or hints thereof) of how Thonia
in BM's Year Zero looked like. :wink:

[Rafael]

Yeah, will make the effort.

F***. YEAH!