Blackmoor Cleric 'blog post

[aldarron]

http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2015/07/cl...kmoor.html

hope it is of some interest

[Havard]

Very cool post Dan! Analytical and detailed as always!

I totally agree with you that the NPC section of DA1 is without a doubt derived from Dave's material and the original campaign.

Clerics are interesting because they are one of the classes that clearly originated in the Blackmoor campaign with Bishop Carr as the first Cleric character.

One thing that you do not bring up is the idea of being brought back to life. Dave Arneson mentions on multiple instances characters that have been killed, but who were returned to the living. I can't find any example saying that it was the Cleric who brought the character back to life, but it would make sense.


Another thing that could be mentioned is the FFC's references to Crusaders. Crusaders seem to be a Chainmail type(?) character that could be a proto Paladin, though this is obviously another example of a religiously motivated character type even if he most likely did not possess divine magic. I always found it interesting that Crusaders would be travelling across the North from the Great Kingdom. Probably they were off to fight against Balrogs and the like and perhaps try to convert Afridhi or other pagans?


-Havard

[aldarron]

Very cool post Dan! Analytical and detailed as always!

I totally agree with you that the NPC section of DA1 is without a doubt derived from Dave's material and the original campaign.

Clerics are interesting because they are one of the classes that clearly originated in the Blackmoor campaign with Bishop Carr as the first Cleric character.

One thing that you do not bring up is the idea of being brought back to life. Dave Arneson mentions on multiple instances characters that have been killed, but who were returned to the living. I can't find any example saying that it was the Cleric who brought the character back to life, but it would make sense.


Another thing that could be mentioned is the FFC's references to Crusaders. Crusaders seem to be a Chainmail type(?) character that could be a proto Paladin, though this is obviously another example of a religiously motivated character type even if he most likely did not possess divine magic. I always found it interesting that Crusaders would be travelling across the North from the Great Kingdom. Probably they were off to fight against Balrogs and the like and perhaps try to convert Afridhi or other pagans?


-Havard

Great points Havard. I think a solid case can be made that Gygax's D&D Cleric does incorporate CHAINMAIL's Crusader types.

I think Mornard has been saying that William Crolley was the first Cleric player.

[Havard]

I think Mornard has been saying that William Crolley was the first Cleric player.

Here's what Mornard said about Crolley:

I ran into Mike Carr at Gary Con in March 2013 and attempted to verify the "Origin of the Cleric" story. He said he wasn't around for the creation of the class. I actually heard the story from William Crolley, another of Dave's original players. Mike Carr did say that the origin story sounded entirely plausible, however.

Source: http://blackmoormystara.blogspot.no/201 ... leric.html

I always understood this to mean that Crolley told Mornard that Carr was the first Cleric, but that Carr later denied this.

Now, Crolley is someone I have no information about other than this comment from Mornard. I would love to know more about his involvement in the campaign.

What the sources do seem to agree on was that Arneson based the Cleric class on Peter Cushing's Vampire Hunter characters and that the whole thing was a result of Sir Fang's rampage in Blackmoor. The D&D weapons restrictions of Clerics using blunt weapons only seems to have been a later addition by Gygax.

-Havard

[aldarron]

I think Mornard has been saying that William Crolley was the first Cleric player.

Here's what Mornard said about Crolley:

I ran into Mike Carr at Gary Con in March 2013 and attempted to verify the "Origin of the Cleric" story. He said he wasn't around for the creation of the class. I actually heard the story from William Crolley, another of Dave's original players. Mike Carr did say that the origin story sounded entirely plausible, however.

Source: http://blackmoormystara.blogspot.no/201 ... leric.html

I always understood this to mean that Crolley told Mornard that Carr was the first Cleric, but that Carr later denied this.
....

No, I think Mike was simply saying that Crolley told him the vampire hunter origin story because Crolley was there. I don't think Mile was implying that Crolley said anything about Mike Carr. Here is another link http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?2646...from/page7

Of course, we could just ask Mike.....

[Cedgewick]

Did Dave's Blackmoor campaign have a cleric prior to when they started playing D&D?

Im a little fuzzy on what classes were around pre-D&D. I was told that the original Dungeon! was a snapshot of Dave's campaign in Oct 72, before Dave and David M. met Gygax in November 72. In Dungeon!, I believe there was an elf, hero, superhero, and wizard-- although maybe those were the common classes and only once in a while a cleric was played (for example by the occasional appearance of Mike Carr). Anyone know if the Blackmoor cleric preceded D&D?

[Havard]

From what I understand the Blackmoor Cleric Class preceded the creation of D&D. It was created around the time when David Fant became the Vampire Sir Fang.

Gygax made some changes to that class when he prepared it for D&D including the blunt weapons restriction.

From what I understand the D&D Thief class came from another gaming group and did not exist in Blackmoor even though one character was referred to as The Bandit.

Richard Sniders The Flying Monk could be a proto Cleric or Monk charcter.

-Havard

[Cedgewick]

From what I understand the Blackmoor Cleric Class preceded the creation of D&D. It was created around the time when David Fant became the Vampire Sir Fang.

From FFC's paragraph about Sir Fang, if he was actually "a 9th level fighter", wouldnt that suggest the cleric came after D&D was being played?

SIR FANG
"Originally a 9th level fighter (Dave Fant) that fell prey to a Vampire and didn't get away. He is treated as a Vampire x5 in value (he is today much stronger than that...sic.) and interpreted as a "Traditional" Slavic Vampire (Note Hollywood). He goes out in the sunlight does not have to be in his coffin by dawn etc.) He charms x5 strength, can use a saving throw vs. Crosses (as against a Spell of Magic). Among other things he has control of all the Dungeon Rats (he travels at will through the numerous cracks and crevices in the Dungeon) which he can summon by the thousand. My practice of warning players is to give them about ten turns where the number of rats watching them builds up considerably before the encounter. If they are smart they flee back to the great hall or "escape" into the depths of the Dungeon. Fang also has a Vampire Ogre (Dbl strength Ogre) and two Dwarves (also Dbl strength). He is studying to be an Illusionist and has reached 3rd level in that area, and 2nd level as a magic user/anti-cleric. His presence in the upper levels is well known."

[Havard]

I dont have my books or notes with me this week, but my impression was that this happened quite a bit earlier. The 1974-1975 parts of the campaign mostly dealt with more experimental adventures like City of the Gods and the WW2 crossovers. I think the timeline can help us get an idea though.

-Havard

[aldarron]

....
From FFC's paragraph about Sir Fang, if he was actually "a 9th level fighter", wouldnt that suggest the cleric came after D&D was being played?
.....

No. Lord Fant/Sir Fang was a long running character. It is important to recognize that the FFC is a mish mash of material, ranging from Dave's earliest campaign notes to explanatory bits written in 1977 for the FFC itself. The passage you quote is the latter. Also, even early Blackmoor characters had "warrior" and/or "magic" levels as in the Ran of Ah Foo write up.