01-24-2010, 03:17 PM
http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=441
Havard:
Over at the Pied Piper forum, someone expressed interest in seeing an rpg based on Dave Arneson's pre-Gygaxian way of gaming. Has ZGG considered publishing their own RPG system based on Arneson's old rules?
Would it be even theoretically possible to publish Blackmoor for such a system, or does the WotC lisence agreement require all BM supplements to be for the D20 system?
Havard
***********************
Falconer:
While we're waiting for a more-or-less official answer to that question, let me ask everyone else this:
Has anyone tried to recreate the original Arneson-style D&D using only Chainmail + FFC? Maybe filling in some holes with Adventures in Fantasy and OD&D and Blackmoor (Supplement II)?
I've experimented with adding a few FFC rules to my Gygaxian game, but I'd be interested in going full-out Arnesonian. There are some very interesting ideas, there. Regards.
_________________
Michael Falconer - http://ulmo.mux.net
"Because by fate even the gods are cast down, weep ye all with me."
*********************
Havard:
I don't have Chainmail, but it sounds interesting. What is the core mechanic in Chainmail, if any?
********************
Falconer:
Well, Chainmail is essentially a "Medieval Miniatures" game for pitting armies against each other, but it has two very special additions: "Man-to-Man Combat" rules and the "Fantasy Supplement." Between these two aspects you essentially can play a sort of proto-D&D, missing most significantly the dungeon concept and character advancement, though it would take little work to add these if desired.
The "Fantasy Supplement" includes many of the spells (phantasmal forces, darkness, wizard light, detection, concealment, conjuration of an elemental, moving terrain, protection from evil, levitate, slowness, haste, polymorph, confusion, hallucinatory terrain, cloudkill, and anti-magic shell) and monsters (sprite, pixie, goblin, kobold, fairy, orc, wraith, lycanthrope, ogre, true troll, giant, ent, dragon--red, blue, white, black, green, and purple--, roc, wyvern, griffon, air elemental, djinn, earth elemental, fire elemental, efreet, water elemental, basilisk, chimera, giant spider, giant wolf, dire wolf, wight, and ghoul) that will make their way into D&D.
Here are also introduced Heroes (takes four "kills" to kill them) and Super Heroes (takes eight "kills" to kill them)--which in D&D will become fourth level and eighth level Fighters. Then there are Wizards (including Sorcerors at -1, Warlocks at -2, Magicians at -3, Seers at -4--compare with D&D Magic-User level titles). So already you have the two main D&D classes. And of course there are also Hobbits, Dwarves/Gnomes, and Elves to round out the lawful races (actually, Elves are neutral, and heroes and wizards can be lawful or chaotic).
The dice used are d6's (no "funny dice"). There's a "Man-to-Man Melee Table" where basically depending on the attacker's weapon and the defender's armor you're given a number you have to roll on 2d6 in order to score a "kill" (though as we've seen it may take multiple kills, so kills may be thought of as D&D "hits" where all hits score 1 point). A magical sword gives allows you to roll 3d6!
So a lot of the seemingly D&D references in FFC are really just to Chainmail. D&D also assumed you had Chainmail and refers back to it. Regards.
***********************
Finarvyn:
I would love to give this a try, but a couple thoughts come to mind:
1. FFC is pretty confusing in places, such as magic system and whatnot. While there are some cool ideas therin, it's really hard to determine what Dave actually did for many of the rules.
2. AiF is also an interesting game, and I always assumed it was the game that Dave wanted D&D to become, but it doesn't seem to fit my concept of the style of the original campaign rules. I'm not entirely certain what I expected, but AiF is very formula-driven and more complex than I think the early campaigns must have been, so I'm not sure how much could be plucked from this source.
3. Chainmail seems to be the best bet here because it's not too complex and seems to use similar concepts to those mentioned in FFC.
If you have some ideas, I'd love to give them a try!
*****************
-Havard
Havard:
Over at the Pied Piper forum, someone expressed interest in seeing an rpg based on Dave Arneson's pre-Gygaxian way of gaming. Has ZGG considered publishing their own RPG system based on Arneson's old rules?
Would it be even theoretically possible to publish Blackmoor for such a system, or does the WotC lisence agreement require all BM supplements to be for the D20 system?
Havard
***********************
Falconer:
While we're waiting for a more-or-less official answer to that question, let me ask everyone else this:
Has anyone tried to recreate the original Arneson-style D&D using only Chainmail + FFC? Maybe filling in some holes with Adventures in Fantasy and OD&D and Blackmoor (Supplement II)?
I've experimented with adding a few FFC rules to my Gygaxian game, but I'd be interested in going full-out Arnesonian. There are some very interesting ideas, there. Regards.
_________________
Michael Falconer - http://ulmo.mux.net
"Because by fate even the gods are cast down, weep ye all with me."
*********************
Havard:
I don't have Chainmail, but it sounds interesting. What is the core mechanic in Chainmail, if any?
********************
Falconer:
Well, Chainmail is essentially a "Medieval Miniatures" game for pitting armies against each other, but it has two very special additions: "Man-to-Man Combat" rules and the "Fantasy Supplement." Between these two aspects you essentially can play a sort of proto-D&D, missing most significantly the dungeon concept and character advancement, though it would take little work to add these if desired.
The "Fantasy Supplement" includes many of the spells (phantasmal forces, darkness, wizard light, detection, concealment, conjuration of an elemental, moving terrain, protection from evil, levitate, slowness, haste, polymorph, confusion, hallucinatory terrain, cloudkill, and anti-magic shell) and monsters (sprite, pixie, goblin, kobold, fairy, orc, wraith, lycanthrope, ogre, true troll, giant, ent, dragon--red, blue, white, black, green, and purple--, roc, wyvern, griffon, air elemental, djinn, earth elemental, fire elemental, efreet, water elemental, basilisk, chimera, giant spider, giant wolf, dire wolf, wight, and ghoul) that will make their way into D&D.
Here are also introduced Heroes (takes four "kills" to kill them) and Super Heroes (takes eight "kills" to kill them)--which in D&D will become fourth level and eighth level Fighters. Then there are Wizards (including Sorcerors at -1, Warlocks at -2, Magicians at -3, Seers at -4--compare with D&D Magic-User level titles). So already you have the two main D&D classes. And of course there are also Hobbits, Dwarves/Gnomes, and Elves to round out the lawful races (actually, Elves are neutral, and heroes and wizards can be lawful or chaotic).
The dice used are d6's (no "funny dice"). There's a "Man-to-Man Melee Table" where basically depending on the attacker's weapon and the defender's armor you're given a number you have to roll on 2d6 in order to score a "kill" (though as we've seen it may take multiple kills, so kills may be thought of as D&D "hits" where all hits score 1 point). A magical sword gives allows you to roll 3d6!
So a lot of the seemingly D&D references in FFC are really just to Chainmail. D&D also assumed you had Chainmail and refers back to it. Regards.
***********************
Finarvyn:
I would love to give this a try, but a couple thoughts come to mind:
1. FFC is pretty confusing in places, such as magic system and whatnot. While there are some cool ideas therin, it's really hard to determine what Dave actually did for many of the rules.
2. AiF is also an interesting game, and I always assumed it was the game that Dave wanted D&D to become, but it doesn't seem to fit my concept of the style of the original campaign rules. I'm not entirely certain what I expected, but AiF is very formula-driven and more complex than I think the early campaigns must have been, so I'm not sure how much could be plucked from this source.
3. Chainmail seems to be the best bet here because it's not too complex and seems to use similar concepts to those mentioned in FFC.
If you have some ideas, I'd love to give them a try!
*****************
-Havard
Currently Running: The Blackmoor Vales Saga
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign