11-23-2013, 06:41 AM
http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/9283
Snoring rock:
Ok, all of you are full of great ideas.....so what is a good city already packaged and ready to go, preferably 3.5E, but will convert, to use for Valon, city of the Ice Wizards? Leadjunkie I am counting on you here.
Thanks.....Snoring Rock
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Leadjunkie:
Putting me on the spot huh? I've actually given this one some thought myself. I got nothing. Valon is a unique setting. I can't say that I have run across anything that would fit the bill. It would be a cool city. Properly done it could probably sell as a stand alone product independent of the Wilderlands.
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James Mishler:
Glantri City is indeed an excellent substitution for Valon, from the nature of the city structure (including the canals) to the nature of the culture and society. The Council of Princes works very well for the lawful-oriented city; however, it would be in balance with the Avalonian King, definitely more of a Parliament rather than a ruling council (though you ould change that, too). You'd need to make a fair number of changes with some of the alignments of members of the noble houses; I'd shift most of them one step closer to Lawful Good (shift the Law-Chaos axis first, then the Good-Evil).
You'd also need to leech out some of the multi-culturalism of the city, if you want it to be closer to the Wilderlands version; there are a LOT of vastly different cultures in Glantri, and most of Valon "by-the-book" is Avalonian (read: blue-skinned Arthurian Chivalric where Merlin had ruled, with a dash of Old Norse. Oh, and blue-skinned with platinum hair). If you want a lot of magic AND multi-culturalism, that's found in Tula, the City of Mages, on the other side of the Wilderlands.
You could lose the emnity toward dwarves and halfling thing, or keep it as a weird thing of the Avalonians.. that would confuse the hell out of players, the Avalonians being "good and lawful folk" who happen to enjoy vivisection of dwarves and halflings as a hobby...
The ideals about magic ruling, though, are very similar, though the Avalonians still respect the gods (clerics just aren't as high in society as wizards, as compared to Glantri, where clerics and religions are outlawed). Perhaps there are only certain gods allowed, and all others are heretical, with the heretical priests being burnt at the stake (wouldn't want to poison the holy waters of Amala with their flesh, would you now?)
If you want to use the various Noble Houses of Glantri, here are some suggestions:
House of Crowngard: You can keep the otherwordly origins of this house, or you can go with them being founded by Tharbrians who have intermarried with the Avalonians. They can pretty much remain the same either way.
House of Igorov: This house was founded by Tarshians who fled the fall of that city long centuries ago; they are intermarried with Avalonians, but still maintain pale blue skin and black-blue hair, as well as an unhealthy interest in the Black Arts.
House of Linden: This house works just fine as an Avalonian noble house; the names are Dutch-based, but work fine. The connection to Old Alphatia is instead a connection to the Elemental Plane of Fire, as opposed to the more common connection to the Elemental Plane of Water as is found among the Avalonians.
House of Ritterberg: These guys work just great, too. They are a mix of native Avalonians and exiled Alryans.
House of Silverston: Avalonians, pure and simple, but with the elemental relationship changed from Air to Water. Name changes will need to be made; or perhaps you can keep the Aendyrs as-is with Air, and create several others with the more natural Avalonian relationship with Water.
House of Singhabad: These guys could not make a more perfect Exiled House of Karakhans if Bruce had planned it that way...
House of Sirecchia: Either change this one greatly, or make it a combined Antillian/Alryan/Avalonian house. Antillians are sorta/kinda Italians, so that would work...
House of Sylaire: Keep the otherworldly origins (which, as with Crowngard, works fine in the Wilderlands) or make them a native and ancient Avalonian house; change the names in this case to something more classically Arthurian, rather than Renaissance French.
Clan of Alhambra: You can keep this as a clan of elves descended from a far-distant land settled in the dismal north, or change it to a clan of Alvar (Blue Elves), blue-skinned Norse-style elves. Hell, keep them as Flamenco Elves and add a new House of Alvar...
Clan of Ellerovyn: As elves, these work just fine. There are forests north of Avalon that suit them perfectly. They are High Elves, of the Wilderlands Kingdom of Alfheim (as opposed to the Mystaran Kingdom of Alfheim, very different...) In addition to dealing with forest-magic, they concentrate on teleportation and gate magic, as it is the Fairie Gates that Alfheim builds that keep the disparate lands of the kingdom together...
As for the Radiance, that fits in just fine, too. There are all sorts of reasons it could exist in the Wilderlands, including the original techno-magical source of the Mystaran version.
James Mishler
Main Man, Adventure Games Publishing
jamesagp1@gmail.com
http://adventuregamespublishing.blogspot.com/
Personal Gameblog: http://jamesmishler.blogspot.com
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Leadjunkie:
Snoring Rock - you convinced me. I scored a copy of the Glantri box set new in the shrink wrap on eBay for just under $15.
James - really good recommendations. Thanks for the insight. Is this from conversations with Bob or your updated take for WoHA? When you say "Arthurian Chivalric", are you referring to a Tennyson like version of the Arthurian tales or a more modern understanding of a Sub-Roman Dark Ages Arthur?
James goes on to say, "a dash of old Norse". This could explain the enmity toward Dwarves (I'd definitely drop the hafling enmity). Norse mythology lumps Dwarves and Elves (not to be confused with the Vanir of Asgard) together to include all manor of strange beings with supernatural powers. Given James' inclusion of two sub-races of Elves in the noble houses, I think I would drop this aspect all together.
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James Mishler:
Well, however you want to make it, really...
Generally, take everything you know about Arthurian romance, add in Boorman's Excalibur, a dash of T.H. White's Sword in the Stone, the Kingdom of Merilon from the Darksword Trilogy, ice and water magic in particular and all sorts of magic in general; mix well; and let stew for 4,000 years with minimal outside influence, and that's what Valon and the Avalonians are like. Core ideas:
1) Ancient, complex social class and caste system;
2) Concepts of honor and order;
3) Advancement outside caste system through chivalry and wizardry;
4) Culturally isolationist, yet individuals may believe in "personal crusades to the benighted lands;"
5) Wizard/knights in shining plate mail (think Lancelot from Excalibur, will fight a non-wizard foe with swords, wizarding foes with magic);
6) Dash of Norse = modern movie interpretations of Beowulf, but classier. The recent Beowulf movie hits the look dead on, as it is a late Dark Age/early Middle Ages style. 13th Warrior gets the feel of the setting more rightly, as it is still quite dark and ugly in the world outside. Put the warriors from 13th Warrior in the setting of the later parts of Beowulf, plus most folks know at least some magic, and it's just about right...
I've adapted the ancient, staid ice wizard elements and religion of the Boxed Set Valon to my own more savage Arthurian/Norse interpretation of the setting, to keep things more intact. I liked the ideas presented in the boxed set about ice magic and the deities, so just adapted them wholesale to my own original interpretation (which was more a Dark Age/Excalibur mix of the Arthurian mythos and Norse pantheon from the original D&DG). The idea of wizarding knights is cool; I kinda liked what David Eddings did with his Elenium series in that direction, so I have no problem with adapting it for the WoHA...
Oh, and the "Roman" influence in the area, as such, is more distinctly "Russo-Byzantine." The ancient Imperial influence in the region is Auld Tarshian, which is a mere shadow of the utterly ancient and (originally) inhuman Empire of Torsh from the Far East... in the WoHA, the people of Tarsh are Russo-Slavic in culture.
And I should add that the "Norse" influence is from the barbaric Valonar peoples, the cousins of the Avalonians. The three tribes of the Valonar (Markka, Norkka, and Sverkka) are the cousins of the Avalonians and Skandiks equally; it was a mixed tribe of Valonar exiles that undertook the original colonization of Altania under Skandi Greywulf in the late 22nd century...
James goes on to say, "a dash of old Norse". This could explain the enmity toward Dwarves (I'd definitely drop the hafling enmity). Norse mythology lumps Dwarves and Elves (not to be confused with the Vanir of Asgard) together to include all manor of strange beings with supernatural powers. Given James' inclusion of two sub-races of Elves in the noble houses, I think I would drop this aspect all together.
The emnities are from the Glantri set, and can be kept or dumped depending on the needs of the campaign... and it is all predicated on using Glantri as Valon, as no such thing exists in the Valon of the WoHA...
BUT again, I cannot emphasize enough, the Wilderlands is always and in every way what each individual judge makes of it!
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Snoring Rock:
That was a mouth-full. This is good stuff. I copeid every word an put it in my note book. I have already made some changes over the weekend to Glantri to make it more Avalonian. I agree, the principalities can be adapted to fit the traditional Wilderlands Valon, which is the flavor I am after. I like the magical/Norse mixture you have suggested. I am scanning the book today, but in my forst quick pass, I find very few alliances or tribute to Valon. They really are isolationist. I can set up a few out-lying villages as homes or manner-homes of leadership in these royal houses to adapt Galantri. This was an excellent choice.
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James Mishler:
One thing you can do, if you want more lands for the Avalonians, is draw up your own map to the north of Valon. The Avalonians control extensive territories north of Valon, the lands known as Valonaria. An excerpt from the World of the Wilderlands article in AGJ #1:
"Immediately to the north of the Wilderlands and south of the Great Escarpment is Valonaria, the domain of the Avalonians and their savage Valonar cousins. The great northern city-states of Val-Torsh, Valfodthr, Valamala, Valoria, and Valmidthra, each the equal of Valon itself, are known only in legend to the southern peoples. The savage lands between the fiefdoms of the Avalonian city-states are home to various tribes of semi-nomadic Valonar, as is the Lower Ukulan Sea below Sûrya Falls. The Ice Temple of Aram Kor sits atop a glacier in the mountains of a vast island between the eastern and western arms of the falls."
These are their homelands, including several more cities, a good number of towns, and plenty of hamlets, castles, and citadels. One of the reasons the Avalonians were never expansionist to the south is that they didn't need to be; they essentially ruled all the fertile lands between the Uther Pentwegern Sea and the Great Escarpment, south of the Alvar Kingdoms, west of Tarsh, and east of Land of Beasts. As mentioned, though, the lands in-between are home to savage barbarians, Valonar and otherwise, so in their homelands the Avalonians are much like the Alryans of the Roglaras; they rule the cities and towns, small "Points of Light" amidst a howling wilderness. Each of the aforementioned cities is ruled by a Prince (never a son of the King, nor even of the same royal clan, by ancient laws to keep a balance between the houses)...
Anyhoo... there will be a map of Valonaria soon enough. The Continental Map is first up, then a map of Near Karak; thereafter the map of Valonaria, the Infinite Desert, or the Demon Empire, I've not yet decided...
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Snoring rock:
James....you are scaring me. I just got back on here to ask what was north of Valon and to see what you thought of making small city states out of these very clannish principalities. The Wilderlands do not lend themselves to large controlled areas like Glantri, but both worj well with several points of light north of Valon. Since I happen to already be working on remapping Blackmoor and the Hak to the west, they would connect at the great glacier. This is good stuff.....again I am on a roll here. Thank you for all the awsome tidbits. Oh, hurry up and get those maps done!
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Lead Junkie:
Snoring Rock - If you aren't subscribing to James WoHA Journal, you should be. The first issue was great. I'm really looking forward to the second one.
* Not so subtle nudge to James*
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Snoring rock:
Ice Elves
I see that the population of elves is nat all thet great in the Wilderlands. I am thinking, since they are more prevelent in Blackmoor, perhaps to the north there are more of them. So, for my Great Glacier map, north of Valon, I have mountains covered by glacier.....so anyone have any idea where to find some stats on some d20 blue elves?
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James Mishler:
Ummm... in the Player's Guide to the Wilderlands? Page 24, "Northern Elves" entry, aka "Blue Elves" or "Alvar." One thing they forgot to include, though, was the ice/cold resistance and suseptibility to fire/heat... add:
Resistance to Ice and Cold (Ex): Alvar ignore the first 5 points of damage dealt to them by any ice or cold-based attacks.
and
Susceptibility to Fire and Heat (Ex): Alvar suffer a -2 penalty to saves against fire or heat effects.
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Snoring rock:
ames, what I meant was that the population is not that large and that they do not controll or "haunt" so to speak, a large swath of territory. I have the Players Guide and I am going down stairs to get it now. I finished my Great Glacier map today (expert autocad user)....you would be proud. It even connects to my Plains of Hak from the "re-drawn" Blackmoor map.....as you suggested. Thank you for all of your cool advice, ideas, and knowledge on the best setting ever published!
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James Mishler:
The continental map is designed under the assumption that the Wilderlands region maps remain at their 5-mile-per-hex scale.
Each regional map is 170 miles north-south and 230 miles east-west (the Wilderlands book incorrectly states 260 miles eas-west).
Each district of 3 maps east-west and 6 maps north-south is thus ~690 miles east-west and ~1,020 miles north-south.
The Rhadamanthia Continental Map is five districts east-west and three districts north-south, for a total area of ~3,450 miles east-west by ~3,060 miles north-south. The area covered is huge, about equal to Europe, Africa north of the central Sahara, the western Middle East, and the western portion of Russia... Iceland in the northwest and Canary Islands in the southwest, to the Ural Mountains in the northeast and southern Arabia in the southeast.
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Snoring rock:
There were a few things I threw out, but I kept quite a lot too. The Great Glacier does not boast a huge population. So I took it principality by principality, and instead of using the populations listed, I devided them by 10. This gave me small villiages, run by nobility from Valon. I used James Mishlers idea for the races in the begining of this thread. I have a huge glaciated mountain range north of the villages and trading posts. The culture from west to east is Slavic changing to a slight Germanic thrust to Escimoes to the east, which connects with the Hak from Blackmoor, which is Native American. It fits nicely. The French influenced names and places from Glantri lend themselves well to the large amount of hunters and trappers along the glacial rim. I love the vampiric families of Rymskigrad and the Werewolves of Loupmont. It just adds to the Wilderlands flavor. Enjoy it this weekend, and if you get any great ideas that are worth sharing.....please do. I thre out the map and made my own of course.
Did you ever get a chance to mail those elves? If you want, I can run a copy of my map and send you one if you want it for ideas. I expect your is better than mine, but you just never know.
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Leadjunkie:
Frostburn vs. Frost & Fur - environment books for a Valon campaign
Any Judge running an arctic/sub-arctic campaign (or any cold environment for that matter) would be well served to have a copy of WotC's Frostburn or Monkey God Enterprises' Frost & Fur; The Explorer's Guide to the Frozen Lands. It has been mentioned on these boards that Frost & Fur is the better of the two. I don't disagree. If I could only have one, that would be my choice as well. I like both for different reasons and suggest having both if it is in your budget.
Here is a brief compare and contrast.
Frostburn is 224 pages with typical WotC color art and borders. Just a personal issue, but I hate the parchment colored page that starts every chapter, making it difficult for these aging eyes to read. Frost & Fur is 237 pages with black and white art only.
Frostburn's first chapter deals with the Frostfell (WotC's name for the arctic lands). It covers different environments found in the arctic, special hazards, supernatural occurrences, and a brief covering of terrain types found in the arctic (23 pgs). Frost & Fur covers similar topics with its focus being on terrain and environmental hazards (22 pgs).
The second chapter of Frostburn covers Races, Classes and Feats. The racial variants are minor tweaks on the core races with the introduction of Neanderthals and Uldras (7 pgs). A couple of pages cover existing classes. Arctic feats (but not skills) take up the remainder of the chapter (5 pgs). The third chapter is devoted to ten prestige classes; the bane of 3.5 to my mind (21 pgs). Frost & Fur covers these topics in three chapters, declining to add prestige classes with the statement that they are campaign specific and the Judge should determine which core prestige classes are appropriate. Races are not given short shrift here (11 pgs). Most of the core races are provided with Slavic, Nordic, Eskimo and Ice Age variants. Some board members have expressed distaste for historical analogs to their fantasy settings. Nevertheless, there are interesting insights to be gained here. One can borrow ideas without having a fantastic Slavic race. Classes, including NPC classes (not covered by WotC) are given some options (5 pgs). Much more attention is paid to skills and feats in Frost & Fur The application of skills in the arctic along with new skills is covered, which is glaringly missing from Frostburn (4 pgs). A greater selection of environment related feats is provided (8 pgs). Curiously, Frost & Fur tags on a page of modifiers to the schools of magic and a new ice domain to this chapter.
Frostburn's 4th chapter covers new equipment (6 pgs). Frost & Fur's chapter has a much greater selection of equipment, especially weapons and transportation (14 pgs). Oddly, Frost & Fur tacked on a page of information about trade commodities in the classes' chapter.
Magic of the Frostfell is covered in chapter 5 of Frostburn. New spells, a cold domain and a page each devoted to psionics and magic items (26 pgs). Frost & Fur breaks this up into two chapters; spells (24 pgs) and magic items (8pgs).
Monsters can be found in chapter 6 of Frostburn. About 50 monsters are covered (53 pgs). Frost & Fur has much more with 85 creatures and about 15 templates (51 pgs).
The remainder of the books is where they greatly diverge.
Frostburn's final chapter provides two adventure sites. Delzomen's Iceforge (EL5) provides a nice two level mini dungeon that introduces many of the features and creatures introduced in the book (11 pgs). Icerazer: The Ice Berg City is a small city, population 5,800 consisting of snow goblins 25%, tieflings 20%, humans 17%, orc 6% and uldra 6%. A decent map and a good selection of NPCs with full stats are provided. Eleven major encounter areas are described with a three level map of the palace (21 pgs).
I could easily see Icerazer's population being changed, making Icerazer Palace home to an Avalonian mages school. What better way to have a secret school than a floating city in the Uther Pentwegern Sea. No doubt the powerful mages control the iceberg's movement.
Finally, there is a very expansive appendix of cold weather terrain specific encounter charts (26 pages).
Frost and Fur closes with four chapters covering cultures, starting with the Norse (29 pgs). The section on gods is of little use if you have Deities & Demigods. Each god is given a very brief description, alignment, domains, weapon and rank within the pantheon. Inexplicably Odin is not listed. Eskimo (11 pgs), Slavic (17 pgs) and Ice Age (6 pgs) round out the cultures.
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Snoring rock:
I have copied/pasted and printed this post of yours Lead. Your observations are valued. I am going to get a copy of Frost and Fur. I see that it is usually listed a t a slightly higher price than Frostburn. I suspsect circulation numbers and content are the reasoning. If a copy of Frostburn happen my way at the right price then I will snatch that up as well.
I really want this floating iceberg as a school. It is just too fantastic to pass up. Thanks for all the insights.
Hey Lead, I received my Frost and Fur. Excellent book. This thing is jam-packed with cold goodness. I like the white pages too. There is more content, less fluff. I appreciate your review of the book and the comparisons between this and Frostburn. This will help a great deal with my Avalonian area to the north.
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-Havard
Snoring rock:
Ok, all of you are full of great ideas.....so what is a good city already packaged and ready to go, preferably 3.5E, but will convert, to use for Valon, city of the Ice Wizards? Leadjunkie I am counting on you here.
Thanks.....Snoring Rock
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Leadjunkie:
Putting me on the spot huh? I've actually given this one some thought myself. I got nothing. Valon is a unique setting. I can't say that I have run across anything that would fit the bill. It would be a cool city. Properly done it could probably sell as a stand alone product independent of the Wilderlands.
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James Mishler:
Glantri City is indeed an excellent substitution for Valon, from the nature of the city structure (including the canals) to the nature of the culture and society. The Council of Princes works very well for the lawful-oriented city; however, it would be in balance with the Avalonian King, definitely more of a Parliament rather than a ruling council (though you ould change that, too). You'd need to make a fair number of changes with some of the alignments of members of the noble houses; I'd shift most of them one step closer to Lawful Good (shift the Law-Chaos axis first, then the Good-Evil).
You'd also need to leech out some of the multi-culturalism of the city, if you want it to be closer to the Wilderlands version; there are a LOT of vastly different cultures in Glantri, and most of Valon "by-the-book" is Avalonian (read: blue-skinned Arthurian Chivalric where Merlin had ruled, with a dash of Old Norse. Oh, and blue-skinned with platinum hair). If you want a lot of magic AND multi-culturalism, that's found in Tula, the City of Mages, on the other side of the Wilderlands.
You could lose the emnity toward dwarves and halfling thing, or keep it as a weird thing of the Avalonians.. that would confuse the hell out of players, the Avalonians being "good and lawful folk" who happen to enjoy vivisection of dwarves and halflings as a hobby...
The ideals about magic ruling, though, are very similar, though the Avalonians still respect the gods (clerics just aren't as high in society as wizards, as compared to Glantri, where clerics and religions are outlawed). Perhaps there are only certain gods allowed, and all others are heretical, with the heretical priests being burnt at the stake (wouldn't want to poison the holy waters of Amala with their flesh, would you now?)
If you want to use the various Noble Houses of Glantri, here are some suggestions:
House of Crowngard: You can keep the otherwordly origins of this house, or you can go with them being founded by Tharbrians who have intermarried with the Avalonians. They can pretty much remain the same either way.
House of Igorov: This house was founded by Tarshians who fled the fall of that city long centuries ago; they are intermarried with Avalonians, but still maintain pale blue skin and black-blue hair, as well as an unhealthy interest in the Black Arts.
House of Linden: This house works just fine as an Avalonian noble house; the names are Dutch-based, but work fine. The connection to Old Alphatia is instead a connection to the Elemental Plane of Fire, as opposed to the more common connection to the Elemental Plane of Water as is found among the Avalonians.
House of Ritterberg: These guys work just great, too. They are a mix of native Avalonians and exiled Alryans.
House of Silverston: Avalonians, pure and simple, but with the elemental relationship changed from Air to Water. Name changes will need to be made; or perhaps you can keep the Aendyrs as-is with Air, and create several others with the more natural Avalonian relationship with Water.
House of Singhabad: These guys could not make a more perfect Exiled House of Karakhans if Bruce had planned it that way...
House of Sirecchia: Either change this one greatly, or make it a combined Antillian/Alryan/Avalonian house. Antillians are sorta/kinda Italians, so that would work...
House of Sylaire: Keep the otherworldly origins (which, as with Crowngard, works fine in the Wilderlands) or make them a native and ancient Avalonian house; change the names in this case to something more classically Arthurian, rather than Renaissance French.
Clan of Alhambra: You can keep this as a clan of elves descended from a far-distant land settled in the dismal north, or change it to a clan of Alvar (Blue Elves), blue-skinned Norse-style elves. Hell, keep them as Flamenco Elves and add a new House of Alvar...
Clan of Ellerovyn: As elves, these work just fine. There are forests north of Avalon that suit them perfectly. They are High Elves, of the Wilderlands Kingdom of Alfheim (as opposed to the Mystaran Kingdom of Alfheim, very different...) In addition to dealing with forest-magic, they concentrate on teleportation and gate magic, as it is the Fairie Gates that Alfheim builds that keep the disparate lands of the kingdom together...
As for the Radiance, that fits in just fine, too. There are all sorts of reasons it could exist in the Wilderlands, including the original techno-magical source of the Mystaran version.
James Mishler
Main Man, Adventure Games Publishing
jamesagp1@gmail.com
http://adventuregamespublishing.blogspot.com/
Personal Gameblog: http://jamesmishler.blogspot.com
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Leadjunkie:
Snoring Rock - you convinced me. I scored a copy of the Glantri box set new in the shrink wrap on eBay for just under $15.
James - really good recommendations. Thanks for the insight. Is this from conversations with Bob or your updated take for WoHA? When you say "Arthurian Chivalric", are you referring to a Tennyson like version of the Arthurian tales or a more modern understanding of a Sub-Roman Dark Ages Arthur?
James goes on to say, "a dash of old Norse". This could explain the enmity toward Dwarves (I'd definitely drop the hafling enmity). Norse mythology lumps Dwarves and Elves (not to be confused with the Vanir of Asgard) together to include all manor of strange beings with supernatural powers. Given James' inclusion of two sub-races of Elves in the noble houses, I think I would drop this aspect all together.
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James Mishler:
Well, however you want to make it, really...
Generally, take everything you know about Arthurian romance, add in Boorman's Excalibur, a dash of T.H. White's Sword in the Stone, the Kingdom of Merilon from the Darksword Trilogy, ice and water magic in particular and all sorts of magic in general; mix well; and let stew for 4,000 years with minimal outside influence, and that's what Valon and the Avalonians are like. Core ideas:
1) Ancient, complex social class and caste system;
2) Concepts of honor and order;
3) Advancement outside caste system through chivalry and wizardry;
4) Culturally isolationist, yet individuals may believe in "personal crusades to the benighted lands;"
5) Wizard/knights in shining plate mail (think Lancelot from Excalibur, will fight a non-wizard foe with swords, wizarding foes with magic);
6) Dash of Norse = modern movie interpretations of Beowulf, but classier. The recent Beowulf movie hits the look dead on, as it is a late Dark Age/early Middle Ages style. 13th Warrior gets the feel of the setting more rightly, as it is still quite dark and ugly in the world outside. Put the warriors from 13th Warrior in the setting of the later parts of Beowulf, plus most folks know at least some magic, and it's just about right...
I've adapted the ancient, staid ice wizard elements and religion of the Boxed Set Valon to my own more savage Arthurian/Norse interpretation of the setting, to keep things more intact. I liked the ideas presented in the boxed set about ice magic and the deities, so just adapted them wholesale to my own original interpretation (which was more a Dark Age/Excalibur mix of the Arthurian mythos and Norse pantheon from the original D&DG). The idea of wizarding knights is cool; I kinda liked what David Eddings did with his Elenium series in that direction, so I have no problem with adapting it for the WoHA...
Oh, and the "Roman" influence in the area, as such, is more distinctly "Russo-Byzantine." The ancient Imperial influence in the region is Auld Tarshian, which is a mere shadow of the utterly ancient and (originally) inhuman Empire of Torsh from the Far East... in the WoHA, the people of Tarsh are Russo-Slavic in culture.
And I should add that the "Norse" influence is from the barbaric Valonar peoples, the cousins of the Avalonians. The three tribes of the Valonar (Markka, Norkka, and Sverkka) are the cousins of the Avalonians and Skandiks equally; it was a mixed tribe of Valonar exiles that undertook the original colonization of Altania under Skandi Greywulf in the late 22nd century...
James goes on to say, "a dash of old Norse". This could explain the enmity toward Dwarves (I'd definitely drop the hafling enmity). Norse mythology lumps Dwarves and Elves (not to be confused with the Vanir of Asgard) together to include all manor of strange beings with supernatural powers. Given James' inclusion of two sub-races of Elves in the noble houses, I think I would drop this aspect all together.
The emnities are from the Glantri set, and can be kept or dumped depending on the needs of the campaign... and it is all predicated on using Glantri as Valon, as no such thing exists in the Valon of the WoHA...
BUT again, I cannot emphasize enough, the Wilderlands is always and in every way what each individual judge makes of it!
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Snoring Rock:
That was a mouth-full. This is good stuff. I copeid every word an put it in my note book. I have already made some changes over the weekend to Glantri to make it more Avalonian. I agree, the principalities can be adapted to fit the traditional Wilderlands Valon, which is the flavor I am after. I like the magical/Norse mixture you have suggested. I am scanning the book today, but in my forst quick pass, I find very few alliances or tribute to Valon. They really are isolationist. I can set up a few out-lying villages as homes or manner-homes of leadership in these royal houses to adapt Galantri. This was an excellent choice.
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James Mishler:
One thing you can do, if you want more lands for the Avalonians, is draw up your own map to the north of Valon. The Avalonians control extensive territories north of Valon, the lands known as Valonaria. An excerpt from the World of the Wilderlands article in AGJ #1:
"Immediately to the north of the Wilderlands and south of the Great Escarpment is Valonaria, the domain of the Avalonians and their savage Valonar cousins. The great northern city-states of Val-Torsh, Valfodthr, Valamala, Valoria, and Valmidthra, each the equal of Valon itself, are known only in legend to the southern peoples. The savage lands between the fiefdoms of the Avalonian city-states are home to various tribes of semi-nomadic Valonar, as is the Lower Ukulan Sea below Sûrya Falls. The Ice Temple of Aram Kor sits atop a glacier in the mountains of a vast island between the eastern and western arms of the falls."
These are their homelands, including several more cities, a good number of towns, and plenty of hamlets, castles, and citadels. One of the reasons the Avalonians were never expansionist to the south is that they didn't need to be; they essentially ruled all the fertile lands between the Uther Pentwegern Sea and the Great Escarpment, south of the Alvar Kingdoms, west of Tarsh, and east of Land of Beasts. As mentioned, though, the lands in-between are home to savage barbarians, Valonar and otherwise, so in their homelands the Avalonians are much like the Alryans of the Roglaras; they rule the cities and towns, small "Points of Light" amidst a howling wilderness. Each of the aforementioned cities is ruled by a Prince (never a son of the King, nor even of the same royal clan, by ancient laws to keep a balance between the houses)...
Anyhoo... there will be a map of Valonaria soon enough. The Continental Map is first up, then a map of Near Karak; thereafter the map of Valonaria, the Infinite Desert, or the Demon Empire, I've not yet decided...
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Snoring rock:
James....you are scaring me. I just got back on here to ask what was north of Valon and to see what you thought of making small city states out of these very clannish principalities. The Wilderlands do not lend themselves to large controlled areas like Glantri, but both worj well with several points of light north of Valon. Since I happen to already be working on remapping Blackmoor and the Hak to the west, they would connect at the great glacier. This is good stuff.....again I am on a roll here. Thank you for all the awsome tidbits. Oh, hurry up and get those maps done!
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Lead Junkie:
Snoring Rock - If you aren't subscribing to James WoHA Journal, you should be. The first issue was great. I'm really looking forward to the second one.
* Not so subtle nudge to James*
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Snoring rock:
Ice Elves
I see that the population of elves is nat all thet great in the Wilderlands. I am thinking, since they are more prevelent in Blackmoor, perhaps to the north there are more of them. So, for my Great Glacier map, north of Valon, I have mountains covered by glacier.....so anyone have any idea where to find some stats on some d20 blue elves?
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James Mishler:
Ummm... in the Player's Guide to the Wilderlands? Page 24, "Northern Elves" entry, aka "Blue Elves" or "Alvar." One thing they forgot to include, though, was the ice/cold resistance and suseptibility to fire/heat... add:
Resistance to Ice and Cold (Ex): Alvar ignore the first 5 points of damage dealt to them by any ice or cold-based attacks.
and
Susceptibility to Fire and Heat (Ex): Alvar suffer a -2 penalty to saves against fire or heat effects.
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Snoring rock:
ames, what I meant was that the population is not that large and that they do not controll or "haunt" so to speak, a large swath of territory. I have the Players Guide and I am going down stairs to get it now. I finished my Great Glacier map today (expert autocad user)....you would be proud. It even connects to my Plains of Hak from the "re-drawn" Blackmoor map.....as you suggested. Thank you for all of your cool advice, ideas, and knowledge on the best setting ever published!
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James Mishler:
The continental map is designed under the assumption that the Wilderlands region maps remain at their 5-mile-per-hex scale.
Each regional map is 170 miles north-south and 230 miles east-west (the Wilderlands book incorrectly states 260 miles eas-west).
Each district of 3 maps east-west and 6 maps north-south is thus ~690 miles east-west and ~1,020 miles north-south.
The Rhadamanthia Continental Map is five districts east-west and three districts north-south, for a total area of ~3,450 miles east-west by ~3,060 miles north-south. The area covered is huge, about equal to Europe, Africa north of the central Sahara, the western Middle East, and the western portion of Russia... Iceland in the northwest and Canary Islands in the southwest, to the Ural Mountains in the northeast and southern Arabia in the southeast.
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Snoring rock:
There were a few things I threw out, but I kept quite a lot too. The Great Glacier does not boast a huge population. So I took it principality by principality, and instead of using the populations listed, I devided them by 10. This gave me small villiages, run by nobility from Valon. I used James Mishlers idea for the races in the begining of this thread. I have a huge glaciated mountain range north of the villages and trading posts. The culture from west to east is Slavic changing to a slight Germanic thrust to Escimoes to the east, which connects with the Hak from Blackmoor, which is Native American. It fits nicely. The French influenced names and places from Glantri lend themselves well to the large amount of hunters and trappers along the glacial rim. I love the vampiric families of Rymskigrad and the Werewolves of Loupmont. It just adds to the Wilderlands flavor. Enjoy it this weekend, and if you get any great ideas that are worth sharing.....please do. I thre out the map and made my own of course.
Did you ever get a chance to mail those elves? If you want, I can run a copy of my map and send you one if you want it for ideas. I expect your is better than mine, but you just never know.
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Leadjunkie:
Frostburn vs. Frost & Fur - environment books for a Valon campaign
Any Judge running an arctic/sub-arctic campaign (or any cold environment for that matter) would be well served to have a copy of WotC's Frostburn or Monkey God Enterprises' Frost & Fur; The Explorer's Guide to the Frozen Lands. It has been mentioned on these boards that Frost & Fur is the better of the two. I don't disagree. If I could only have one, that would be my choice as well. I like both for different reasons and suggest having both if it is in your budget.
Here is a brief compare and contrast.
Frostburn is 224 pages with typical WotC color art and borders. Just a personal issue, but I hate the parchment colored page that starts every chapter, making it difficult for these aging eyes to read. Frost & Fur is 237 pages with black and white art only.
Frostburn's first chapter deals with the Frostfell (WotC's name for the arctic lands). It covers different environments found in the arctic, special hazards, supernatural occurrences, and a brief covering of terrain types found in the arctic (23 pgs). Frost & Fur covers similar topics with its focus being on terrain and environmental hazards (22 pgs).
The second chapter of Frostburn covers Races, Classes and Feats. The racial variants are minor tweaks on the core races with the introduction of Neanderthals and Uldras (7 pgs). A couple of pages cover existing classes. Arctic feats (but not skills) take up the remainder of the chapter (5 pgs). The third chapter is devoted to ten prestige classes; the bane of 3.5 to my mind (21 pgs). Frost & Fur covers these topics in three chapters, declining to add prestige classes with the statement that they are campaign specific and the Judge should determine which core prestige classes are appropriate. Races are not given short shrift here (11 pgs). Most of the core races are provided with Slavic, Nordic, Eskimo and Ice Age variants. Some board members have expressed distaste for historical analogs to their fantasy settings. Nevertheless, there are interesting insights to be gained here. One can borrow ideas without having a fantastic Slavic race. Classes, including NPC classes (not covered by WotC) are given some options (5 pgs). Much more attention is paid to skills and feats in Frost & Fur The application of skills in the arctic along with new skills is covered, which is glaringly missing from Frostburn (4 pgs). A greater selection of environment related feats is provided (8 pgs). Curiously, Frost & Fur tags on a page of modifiers to the schools of magic and a new ice domain to this chapter.
Frostburn's 4th chapter covers new equipment (6 pgs). Frost & Fur's chapter has a much greater selection of equipment, especially weapons and transportation (14 pgs). Oddly, Frost & Fur tacked on a page of information about trade commodities in the classes' chapter.
Magic of the Frostfell is covered in chapter 5 of Frostburn. New spells, a cold domain and a page each devoted to psionics and magic items (26 pgs). Frost & Fur breaks this up into two chapters; spells (24 pgs) and magic items (8pgs).
Monsters can be found in chapter 6 of Frostburn. About 50 monsters are covered (53 pgs). Frost & Fur has much more with 85 creatures and about 15 templates (51 pgs).
The remainder of the books is where they greatly diverge.
Frostburn's final chapter provides two adventure sites. Delzomen's Iceforge (EL5) provides a nice two level mini dungeon that introduces many of the features and creatures introduced in the book (11 pgs). Icerazer: The Ice Berg City is a small city, population 5,800 consisting of snow goblins 25%, tieflings 20%, humans 17%, orc 6% and uldra 6%. A decent map and a good selection of NPCs with full stats are provided. Eleven major encounter areas are described with a three level map of the palace (21 pgs).
I could easily see Icerazer's population being changed, making Icerazer Palace home to an Avalonian mages school. What better way to have a secret school than a floating city in the Uther Pentwegern Sea. No doubt the powerful mages control the iceberg's movement.
Finally, there is a very expansive appendix of cold weather terrain specific encounter charts (26 pages).
Frost and Fur closes with four chapters covering cultures, starting with the Norse (29 pgs). The section on gods is of little use if you have Deities & Demigods. Each god is given a very brief description, alignment, domains, weapon and rank within the pantheon. Inexplicably Odin is not listed. Eskimo (11 pgs), Slavic (17 pgs) and Ice Age (6 pgs) round out the cultures.
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Snoring rock:
I have copied/pasted and printed this post of yours Lead. Your observations are valued. I am going to get a copy of Frost and Fur. I see that it is usually listed a t a slightly higher price than Frostburn. I suspsect circulation numbers and content are the reasoning. If a copy of Frostburn happen my way at the right price then I will snatch that up as well.
I really want this floating iceberg as a school. It is just too fantastic to pass up. Thanks for all the insights.
Hey Lead, I received my Frost and Fur. Excellent book. This thing is jam-packed with cold goodness. I like the white pages too. There is more content, less fluff. I appreciate your review of the book and the comparisons between this and Frostburn. This will help a great deal with my Avalonian area to the north.
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-Havard
Currently Running: The Blackmoor Vales Saga
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign