Blackmoor in the year 500

[Havard]

IF I WAS TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT AS A GAME, I would try to work with Chris Aylott's approach to Elven and Human neighborhoods ("humans are hairless monkeys") once more

Sorry, I have no idea what that means. Google searches reveal Chris Aylott as an obscure RPG designer who has contributed to things like the 3.5E World of Warcraft RPG?

My problem with the several official takes on Blackmoorian "founding" mythology is that they are not very coherent, and that, apparently, people tried to compress things into the relatively small timeframe of a thousand years. That leaves very, very little time for mystery, IMO.

Maybe its the historian me, but calling a thousand years a small timeframe? hock:

Think of it this way. If D20 Blackmoor corresponded to the time of Christopher Colombus, then the War against the Temple of Id would have taken place around 1000 AD while the founding of Thonia would be around 500 AD. Alot of things happened over all those centuries in our real world. There is plenty of room in Blackmoor as well

Also, there is one good thing about incoherence in official material and that is that there is stuff for us to do.

OTOH, all this published stuff is only important since it gives us a common frame of reference. In your games you should not in any way feel obligated to use any of the things published, and definitely not the things that I have written. Unless you like them that is

For example, what about making the Id Gem sort of a stand-in Silmaril? - One could work with that, at least tentatively.

The other main aspect of the game, I would probably try to handle based on what we know from Zimriel (once again, my Blackmoor is 50% inspired in his notes):

Note that the Temple of Id is no churchland, but is actually a cursed and ancient place of terror. Extensive caverns contain prisons, chapels, and monster dens. Above-ground structure: courtyard with small amphitheatre, “several undead superheroes”, great orange jewel on black pedestal. This Jewel is very probably the legendary Jewel of the Sun, which in 996 proved very effective against undead and magical darkness.
Stealing this jewel results in the “Id Monster” chasing the thief. Only the thief can see the monster. The Monster will eat the Jewel (and thief), at which point the monster and jewel return to the Temple, and the thief magically reappears, naked, under the Blackmoor “Troll Bridge” in Blackmoor’s sewage runoff. The Jewel was still there as of 1000.

So, some basic considerations:

Also, what if the Id Gem is the corrupted "Jewel of the Sun"? Perhaps it contains another powerful soul, similar to the Evershard, but, well, smaller? What if it's really the "Id" of something powerful?

My bet would go, just based on the stuff we've been toying with, on the oldest Elves.

Rafe going back to the Zimriel files. I like it

Comparing the Jewel of the Sun to the Silmarils makes sense to me.

Here is my take on the Jewel of the Sun/Jewel of Id:

This is a powerful elven artifact that was used to destroy the Temple of Id. Removing the Jewel permanently from the ruins is difficult, but if done successfully it would allow the evils of the Temple to return to Blackmoor. The Id Monster might be the ghost of the actual Id Monster, but perhaps bound by the Jewel so that the Jewel is not permanently removed.

I have not done much work on the origins/nature of the Jewel, but I like your ideas. My Elder Elves are a little different from yours though in that they aren't actually elves, but rather the race of Oberon and Titania (Sidhe).

Now, since BM has only a tradition that stretches back a thousand years, that pretty boring, but if we borrow from WL lore, like I did for the LFC, then we quickly get to Dragon Kings and Macrabs, and, in short, stuff to toy with.

It is a viable option for sure. Many of the prehistoric Wilderlands elements exist in my campaign too, but I am more liberal with tweaking those things where they do not fit my version of Blackmoor. But that is so great about each of us being able to do what we wish in our own campaigns right?

In any case, how much would such elaborate back histories actually impact a small localized game session?

-Havard

[Rafael]

Sorry, I have no idea what that means. Google searches reveal Chris Aylott as an obscure RPG designer who has contributed to things like the 3.5E World of Warcraft RPG?

Yeah, to WoW, and to a couple of projects more. An unsung hero, and quite probably the most innovative D&D/d20 designer of his era. His writings, mainly those for the Penumbra d20 line by Atlas Games (which is really, the old crew from Mayfair Games) have had the most lasting impact on my games.

His concept was mainly that - difficult to explain in two or three sentences - Elves see Man as talking sheep, and themselves as the shepherders.

Maybe its the historian me, but calling a thousand years a small timeframe? hock:

Well, that, or two and a half generations of High Elves.

I have not done much work on the origins/nature of the Jewel, but I like your ideas. My Elder Elves are a little different from yours though in that they aren't actually elves, but rather the race of Oberon and Titania (Sidhe).

Yepp, my Elder Elves are essentially Starfaring Elves, like, say, in the Deathgate series by MW and TH. This is why those 1000 years also don't quite fit. Either we have a process of cultural degeneration, or we have *Lost Atlanteans*. No middle ground within my own narrative.

But that is so great about each of us being able to do what we wish in our own campaigns right?

My dear viking, whatever meal you cook in your Norwegian igloo, I don't smell it in my German hermit's hut.

In any case, how much would such elaborate back histories actually impact a small localized game session?

Oh, on every conceivable level. Races. Magic. Tech. Also, it directly influences human cultural tradition. In short, everything.

One reason why I always come back to WL, and also one reason why I still cling to Ravenloft, is that both settings depict fairly conventional, but unique human cultures. As I enjoy human-centric campaigns, I am very aware that most vanilla fantasy humans are 99% the same, but that extra edge, I personally gain from that connection. For example, with WL, the concept of *the forgotten gods* (humans wear religious items without knowing their exact purpose) is a pretty powerful narrative tool.

Anyway, raaah. 0430 AM, and I am already late. :evil: :wink:

[Havard]

Maybe its the historian me, but calling a thousand years a small timeframe? hock:

Well, that, or two and a half generations of High Elves.

Yes sure. But IMHO that is what makes elves interesting. They can remember the things your great great grandfather did because they were there.

But yeah, do whatever you want in your game. As do we all

The reason why I bring up published material is because that is what we have in common. Whether we use it or ignore it, it is what bring us all to this forum.

In my campaign, I like the idea of the elves being a relatively young race in the world. They appear in the North about a thousand years before King Robert founds Thonia. As they gradually become brave enough to leave their protected woodlands, they are quite innocent of what can be found beyond those sheltered lands. King Uhlmar becomes fascinated with this new race called humans when he first encounters Halgred Forestwalker, whom he raises as a son, and later King Robert who becomes a friend.

500 years later, King Uhlmar is old even for an elf. His children criticize him for his openness towards the lesser races. And when he apparently is betrayed at the Battle of the Temple of Id, his daughter goes against him. This happens at the midst of his own grief from loosing close friends in that battle combined with the weariness of age causes him to curse his daughter and everyone who goes with her. As it is a curse made on his death bed, the curse is powerful enough to change the Westryn forever. Perhaps his grandson, Menander Ithamis, will be able to restore the wound that has divided his people. Or perhaps that wound can never be healed.

These years, the year 1, the year 500 and the time of Uther are key points in Blackmoor's history. Not every campaign needs to concern itself with these things. One could easily run a campaign in the Thonian Year 400, of which we know much less about. That would give a DM alot of freedom should he feel restrained by the detail provided by the published material.


Anyway, its Friday and the local pub needs me.

-Havard

[Rafael]

Sorry, not at all my approach to the setting; that said, the Uhlmar figure itself surely is interesting.

Maybe we can agree that the Cumasti are younger than other Elven races, but the Elves themselves - naaah.

Blackmoor has no "Dawn Age" feel, at least to me. - But, in that context, you might want to check "Dawnforge", for real. :wink:
It was perhaps the only take on D&D that got that *we're in Tolkien's first age* feeling that I so appreciate.

[Havard]

No need to appologize, there is no reason for us to have the same take on Blackmoor

-Havard

[RobJN]

And you're both mistaken, because we all know mine is the best version of Blackmoor :-P

[Rafael]

Beat me to it.

"Yes, yes, dear fellow, you have all the right in the world to use a version inferior to mine."

"It's like taking the one-legged girl to the prom; she might not be the queen, but you will have all eyes on you, anyway."

"Be a team player, son, and take care of this, so the coach has time to think of the more important things."

"Be a Hemmingway, kid. You will get there in time, trust me."

"It's not that your game is bad, bro. It's just that our stuff, Star Wars, the original trilogy, and your stuff, the prequels."

"Come on, we can't all tell stories like a Jean-Luc Goddard. But that doesn't say that Justin Lin is a bad director."

"No, I usually don't drink when listen to other people's stories. Just today."

"Sir, we don't think your resume necessarily does qualify you for a positionamong our management team; not unless you were referring to direct sales management, of course..."

[Havard]

ok, how about we get this thread back on topic?

I posted a bunch of ideas for a Year 500 Campaign earlier in this thread:

1. No Ducy of Ten (Not even Robinsport, Dacoit etc)
2. Duchy of the Peaks is fairly young (founded ca Year 500)
3. Temple of the Id is still active (Destroyed in Year 500)
4. No Dwarven Settlements. Dwarves have just arrived and Uberstar Khazakhum is looking for a place to found his realm. The Bovo Popuo still inhabit the Crystal Peaks and other mountains.
5. Before the Deluge. Sinking lands have not yet begun to sink. North Sea not yet connected to Black Sea. (see this map)
6. Elves are still one race. (Split ca year 500)
7. Huge Forest, known as the Heartforest covers large portions of the land. (Per Jeff Quinn)
8. Darker creatures, including demons are much more commonplace.
9. Skandaharians to the North will be here already at this time, but are perhaps not yet a developed raider culture?
10. Vestfold, Maus and Blackmoor are already present, but most other settlements are still villages at best. Populations are small.
11. Orcs and Goblins do not yet exist. Beastmen are created in the year 500 as response to destruction of the temple of Id (Fan theory)
10. No Afridhi
12. Egg of Coot has not yet risen.
13. No Wizards Cabal. Mage Wars have not yet occurred. Human mages are likely rare, except for the primitive kinds (Wokans, Sorcerers)
14. Valemen more commonplace. Not yet driven to the west (fan speculation)
15. Blackmoor and the northern settlements are loyal outposts of the Thonian Empire
16. Peshwah are still around, many live as raiders.
17. No Loch Gloomen, Fel, Dukane, South Pim, Newgate, Kennydale, Cloudtop, Dragonia, Booh, Williamsfort, Bosero's Tower, Fairfield Abby, Boggy Bottom

Overall it is an interesting subject, although most timelines make the year 500 to be a transition year so it would be easier to describe Blackmoor before or after that year. Campaigns Set before the destruction of the Temple of Id will probably likely end up dealing with that enemy. Campaigns set immediately after the destruction if Id could be interesting too as it would be a time of unheaval dealing with the aftermath of that war, the split between the elf clans, the growing division between Elves and Men and the arrival of dwarves and halflings.

Let us leave the obviously contested issues of "the history of the elves" and the "nature of the Egg of Coot" aside:

If we assume that this is a campaign to be set in the years before the destruction of the Temple of Id, what other adventure opportunities exist?

-Havard

[Rafael]

"'Let's concentrate on the things we have in common', he said, and posted a list of 17 things that further defined his point of view." :wink:

Here's an example - and only an example - of how I would proceed:

IMC, Starmorgan is a settlement founded by the ancient Thracians around 100-150 NC. (From the classic JG module, Caverns of Thracia.) According to my timeline, Thracia II (ibid. module) was destroyed around 100 NC, so the fall of Thracia as a historical event is still present in people's memory - or rather than that, in myth and lore, similar to how Atlantis is treated in the Conan stories.

For example, as an un-Tolkienian approach to the setting and its time, I would probably simply choose *Tower of the Elephant* as a conceptual starting point.

[RobJN]

"'Let's concentrate on the things we have in common', he said, and posted a list of 17 things that further defined his point of view." :wink:

That looks like a laundry list of "what is known of the age," compiled from various canon sources,sans too terribly much personal bias. Mind you, I have not read DAB in its entirety, and its been a while since I thumbed through my copy of the DA-series modules.

Whether or not the items on the list are used in crafting a narrative/adventure background is entirely up to the author.