<![CDATA[The Comeback Inn - Archived Discussions (Members Only)]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/ Sun, 25 Oct 2026 05:18:15 +0000 MyBB <![CDATA[Blackmoor Index?]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=3191 Sat, 01 Jun 2024 16:54:15 -0600 jbulloug@gmail.com]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=3191 <![CDATA[[Wizards] Interview with David R. Megarry]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1908 Sat, 22 Nov 2014 06:07:20 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1908
Dungeon!
An Interview with David R. Megarry
James Maliszewski
The Dungeon! board game has returned (with optional rule variants recently provided by Chris Tulach). In honor of the re-release, Grognardia's James Maliszewski wrote about his introduction to the game—and interviewed the game's original designer, David R. Megarry!

f you started roleplaying in the late 1970s, as I did, odds are very good that your introduction to the hobby was Dungeons & Dragons. My first foray into the D&D rules was through the 1977 Basic Set edited by Dr J. Eric Holmes, which my mother purchased through a department store catalog in the summer of 1979. She originally bought it for my father, thinking he might be interested since he had been talking a lot about D&D (owing to many news stories about it at the time). As it turned out, that Basic Set instead ended on a shelf in the upstairs linen closet of my suburban Baltimore home, where I often eyed it with curiosity. It would not be until nearly the end of that year, during Christmas break from my school, that I finally took the game down myself and opened it for the first time.

Before that could happen, though, I had to encounter another game, albeit one with a very similar title. One of my close friends received as a Christmas gift a board game called Dungeon!. First published in 1975, it came with a vinyl cloth game board that depicted the various chambers of a labyrinthine six-level dungeon. Players could choose to be one of four types of characters: a hero, an elf, a superhero, or a wizard. Each class had different strengths -- only a wizard could cast spells, for example -- as well as different victory conditions. The goal of the game was to wander through the dungeon, encountering monsters and (one hoped) defeating them to gain their treasure.

Both monsters and treasures were randomly determined through the use of cards keyed to a particular level of the dungeon. So, one might encounter giant rats guarding 250 gold pieces on the first level, but a red dragon guarding a huge sapphire worth 6,000 gold pieces on the sixth level. The first character to amass gold pieces equal to the victory conditions of his chosen class and return to the dungeon entrance was the winner. Though deceptively simple in its presentation, Dungeon! offered surprising depth of play, as players gauged multiple factors in deciding their path to victory, such as whether to play a weaker class requiring fewer gold pieces to win or whether to risk descending deeper into the dungeon where the potential dangers were as great as the rewards.

Playing Dungeon! with my friends that Christmas break reminded me of the game stashed away in that linen closet, which I took down and attempted to learn to play. While my early attempts at learning Dungeons & Dragons are, in retrospect, somewhat comical -- my friends and I wondered why the Basic Set did not include a board or playing pieces -- I still have very fond memories of those days. In my mind, Dungeon! will be forever linked with my first furtive steps into this wonderful hobby of ours, and I suspect I am not alone in this regard.

Consequently, I am very pleased that Wizards of the Coast has recently reprinted Dungeon! for a new generation. In celebration of this, I recently had the good fortune to speak with David R. Megarry, the original designer of the game. Mr. Megarry was a member of the Midwest Military Simulation Association, a wargames organization that incorporated clubs from several universities and colleges in Minnesota. Also a member was Dave Arneson, whose Blackmoor campaign was one of the wellsprings from which D&D eventually sprang.

In our conversation, Mr. Megarry kindly agreed to answer a few questions I had about his design of the game and his own involvement in the early days of the hobby.


How did you first become involved in fantasy gaming? Was it through Dave Arneson's Blackmoor campaign or did you have an interest in the subject matter beforehand?

DM: I am trying to remember what kind of fantasy gaming existed before Arneson's Blackmoor and am hard pressed to think of any. I was steeped in the Lord of the Rings trilogy and my other main reading interests were science fiction (Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein), so in some respects I was primed for a D&D experience. Aren't the descriptions of the Mines of Moria a dungeon crawl, as a matter of fact: corridors to the left and right, noises, sudden attacks by monsters, etc.? So, I would say my fantasy gaming started with Blackmoor.

How did you come to join the Blackmoor campaign?

DM: We were all part of Arneson's Napoleonic [miniatures wargame] campaign for many years. When Arneson tried out Blackmoor on us and the group as a whole liked the fantasy game idea, we became part of the Blackmoor campaign. The Napoleonic campaign had been going on for years before the Blackmoor campaign. This was a very seasoned group of miniature game players.

It's been reported elsewhere that Dungeon! was inspired by your experiences exploring the dungeons beneath Castle Blackmoor. Is that correct?

DM: Yes, but it was watching David [Arneson] struggle with being the only referee and not being able to play his own game which lead me to the design problem: Could I invent a game which captured the flavor of the Blackmoor experience but not need a referee? I analyzed every aspect of the referee to understand what that position brings to the game, and came up with Dungeon! as the answer.

What conclusions did your analysis present about the role of the referee?

DM: The main conclusion is the referee reveals the fantasy world in bite-sized chunks, creating a system of intermittent positive reinforcement: a little bit of exploring (reveal a piece of the dungeon), a little bit of action (fight a monster). The trick was to take that concept and put it into effect in a board game.

While I had to reveal the dungeon, I was able to get the intermittent positive reinforcement idea in the monster and treasure cards. I was also able to introduce a variability (needed for replay value) with the random distribution of the cards within the levels. I kept the number of character types to a minimum and movement at five spaces to keep the rules simple. My whole idea was to have this game become a standard parlor game, accessible by everyone and that could be played in an hour.

I assume that the earliest playtests of the game were done with the Blackmoor group. What changes (if any) came about as a result of these playtests?

DM: Well, I think we played it three or four times but then the prototype went to Gary Gygax in Lake Geneva. I invented Dungeon! in October, 1972 and visited Gary (with David Arneson) in December, 1972. Gary liked the game a lot and was willing to try to peddle it to [Don] Lowry [of Guidon Games, the original publisher of Chainmail]. I left the prototype with him at that point. I had not made a copy of anything, so this was a very trusting activity. Ultimately I got the board back and the cards but the hand drawn rule booklet was lost. Anyway, the Lake Geneva crowd did more playtesting than the Blackmoor crowd.

Gary made some changes to the board, insisting that there was an imbalance in the movement on the fourth level, but by and large the game has remained essentially as I designed it. Gary did request player-to-player attack rules which I supplied but I insisted they be optional rules. He added a few more optional rules like wandering monsters, but I viewed these as complications to the basic play: Ma and Pa America was going to have enough work to understand the basic rules let alone learn how to fight each other. Arneson and Gygax were both into complicated, lengthy rules in all their games; it took a lot of effort on my part to keep it simple.

Were you pleased with the final results? Was there any aspect of your original design with which you were dissatisfied?

DM: My dissatisfactions were few but significant: 1) My name was spelled wrong!; 2) I had wanted to have cardboard stand-up figures for the pieces but they (TSR) could only afford pawns; 3) It wasn't clear to me that the changes Gary made to the board on the fourth level wouldn't give the wizards a better advantage there. It was supposed to be the area that heroes and elves could be challenged by monsters, but also not have pesky wizards standing in the wings waiting to pick up the prizes they dropped. So far it has not been an issue so I'm thinking it's the usual: "you messed with my game design" feelings that all authors have with their editors...

As I noted in my introduction, I first played Dungeon! as a child and it became my gateway into playing Dungeons & Dragons. Was this part of your intention?

DM: Remember, Dungeon! was a complete game before the D&D rules were finally finished. It was my intention to have Ma and Pa America have a fantasy experience; it is simply a happy side benefit that Dungeon! would lead someone to D&D.

About the Author

James Maliszewski started roleplaying in the late fall of 1979, when he opened up a copy of the Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, which was edited by Dr. J. Eric Holmes and originally purchased for his father. More than thirty years later, he’s still playing. He works as a freelance writer and blogs about old school gaming at http://grognardia.blogspot.com.

****

Reposted from: http://archive.wizards.com/DnD/Article. ... Oct2#82941


-Havard]]>
Dungeon!
An Interview with David R. Megarry
James Maliszewski
The Dungeon! board game has returned (with optional rule variants recently provided by Chris Tulach). In honor of the re-release, Grognardia's James Maliszewski wrote about his introduction to the game—and interviewed the game's original designer, David R. Megarry!

f you started roleplaying in the late 1970s, as I did, odds are very good that your introduction to the hobby was Dungeons & Dragons. My first foray into the D&D rules was through the 1977 Basic Set edited by Dr J. Eric Holmes, which my mother purchased through a department store catalog in the summer of 1979. She originally bought it for my father, thinking he might be interested since he had been talking a lot about D&D (owing to many news stories about it at the time). As it turned out, that Basic Set instead ended on a shelf in the upstairs linen closet of my suburban Baltimore home, where I often eyed it with curiosity. It would not be until nearly the end of that year, during Christmas break from my school, that I finally took the game down myself and opened it for the first time.

Before that could happen, though, I had to encounter another game, albeit one with a very similar title. One of my close friends received as a Christmas gift a board game called Dungeon!. First published in 1975, it came with a vinyl cloth game board that depicted the various chambers of a labyrinthine six-level dungeon. Players could choose to be one of four types of characters: a hero, an elf, a superhero, or a wizard. Each class had different strengths -- only a wizard could cast spells, for example -- as well as different victory conditions. The goal of the game was to wander through the dungeon, encountering monsters and (one hoped) defeating them to gain their treasure.

Both monsters and treasures were randomly determined through the use of cards keyed to a particular level of the dungeon. So, one might encounter giant rats guarding 250 gold pieces on the first level, but a red dragon guarding a huge sapphire worth 6,000 gold pieces on the sixth level. The first character to amass gold pieces equal to the victory conditions of his chosen class and return to the dungeon entrance was the winner. Though deceptively simple in its presentation, Dungeon! offered surprising depth of play, as players gauged multiple factors in deciding their path to victory, such as whether to play a weaker class requiring fewer gold pieces to win or whether to risk descending deeper into the dungeon where the potential dangers were as great as the rewards.

Playing Dungeon! with my friends that Christmas break reminded me of the game stashed away in that linen closet, which I took down and attempted to learn to play. While my early attempts at learning Dungeons & Dragons are, in retrospect, somewhat comical -- my friends and I wondered why the Basic Set did not include a board or playing pieces -- I still have very fond memories of those days. In my mind, Dungeon! will be forever linked with my first furtive steps into this wonderful hobby of ours, and I suspect I am not alone in this regard.

Consequently, I am very pleased that Wizards of the Coast has recently reprinted Dungeon! for a new generation. In celebration of this, I recently had the good fortune to speak with David R. Megarry, the original designer of the game. Mr. Megarry was a member of the Midwest Military Simulation Association, a wargames organization that incorporated clubs from several universities and colleges in Minnesota. Also a member was Dave Arneson, whose Blackmoor campaign was one of the wellsprings from which D&D eventually sprang.

In our conversation, Mr. Megarry kindly agreed to answer a few questions I had about his design of the game and his own involvement in the early days of the hobby.


How did you first become involved in fantasy gaming? Was it through Dave Arneson's Blackmoor campaign or did you have an interest in the subject matter beforehand?

DM: I am trying to remember what kind of fantasy gaming existed before Arneson's Blackmoor and am hard pressed to think of any. I was steeped in the Lord of the Rings trilogy and my other main reading interests were science fiction (Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein), so in some respects I was primed for a D&D experience. Aren't the descriptions of the Mines of Moria a dungeon crawl, as a matter of fact: corridors to the left and right, noises, sudden attacks by monsters, etc.? So, I would say my fantasy gaming started with Blackmoor.

How did you come to join the Blackmoor campaign?

DM: We were all part of Arneson's Napoleonic [miniatures wargame] campaign for many years. When Arneson tried out Blackmoor on us and the group as a whole liked the fantasy game idea, we became part of the Blackmoor campaign. The Napoleonic campaign had been going on for years before the Blackmoor campaign. This was a very seasoned group of miniature game players.

It's been reported elsewhere that Dungeon! was inspired by your experiences exploring the dungeons beneath Castle Blackmoor. Is that correct?

DM: Yes, but it was watching David [Arneson] struggle with being the only referee and not being able to play his own game which lead me to the design problem: Could I invent a game which captured the flavor of the Blackmoor experience but not need a referee? I analyzed every aspect of the referee to understand what that position brings to the game, and came up with Dungeon! as the answer.

What conclusions did your analysis present about the role of the referee?

DM: The main conclusion is the referee reveals the fantasy world in bite-sized chunks, creating a system of intermittent positive reinforcement: a little bit of exploring (reveal a piece of the dungeon), a little bit of action (fight a monster). The trick was to take that concept and put it into effect in a board game.

While I had to reveal the dungeon, I was able to get the intermittent positive reinforcement idea in the monster and treasure cards. I was also able to introduce a variability (needed for replay value) with the random distribution of the cards within the levels. I kept the number of character types to a minimum and movement at five spaces to keep the rules simple. My whole idea was to have this game become a standard parlor game, accessible by everyone and that could be played in an hour.

I assume that the earliest playtests of the game were done with the Blackmoor group. What changes (if any) came about as a result of these playtests?

DM: Well, I think we played it three or four times but then the prototype went to Gary Gygax in Lake Geneva. I invented Dungeon! in October, 1972 and visited Gary (with David Arneson) in December, 1972. Gary liked the game a lot and was willing to try to peddle it to [Don] Lowry [of Guidon Games, the original publisher of Chainmail]. I left the prototype with him at that point. I had not made a copy of anything, so this was a very trusting activity. Ultimately I got the board back and the cards but the hand drawn rule booklet was lost. Anyway, the Lake Geneva crowd did more playtesting than the Blackmoor crowd.

Gary made some changes to the board, insisting that there was an imbalance in the movement on the fourth level, but by and large the game has remained essentially as I designed it. Gary did request player-to-player attack rules which I supplied but I insisted they be optional rules. He added a few more optional rules like wandering monsters, but I viewed these as complications to the basic play: Ma and Pa America was going to have enough work to understand the basic rules let alone learn how to fight each other. Arneson and Gygax were both into complicated, lengthy rules in all their games; it took a lot of effort on my part to keep it simple.

Were you pleased with the final results? Was there any aspect of your original design with which you were dissatisfied?

DM: My dissatisfactions were few but significant: 1) My name was spelled wrong!; 2) I had wanted to have cardboard stand-up figures for the pieces but they (TSR) could only afford pawns; 3) It wasn't clear to me that the changes Gary made to the board on the fourth level wouldn't give the wizards a better advantage there. It was supposed to be the area that heroes and elves could be challenged by monsters, but also not have pesky wizards standing in the wings waiting to pick up the prizes they dropped. So far it has not been an issue so I'm thinking it's the usual: "you messed with my game design" feelings that all authors have with their editors...

As I noted in my introduction, I first played Dungeon! as a child and it became my gateway into playing Dungeons & Dragons. Was this part of your intention?

DM: Remember, Dungeon! was a complete game before the D&D rules were finally finished. It was my intention to have Ma and Pa America have a fantasy experience; it is simply a happy side benefit that Dungeon! would lead someone to D&D.

About the Author

James Maliszewski started roleplaying in the late fall of 1979, when he opened up a copy of the Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, which was edited by Dr. J. Eric Holmes and originally purchased for his father. More than thirty years later, he’s still playing. He works as a freelance writer and blogs about old school gaming at http://grognardia.blogspot.com.

****

Reposted from: http://archive.wizards.com/DnD/Article. ... Oct2#82941


-Havard]]> <![CDATA[[Gamespy] Dave Arneson (2002) 1st Gamespy Interview]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1797 Sat, 17 May 2014 07:15:04 -0600 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1797 Dave Arneson Interview
Dave Arneson, "the Father of Role-Playing," was making the rounds at Gen Con and we got the scoop on what he is up to since helping create Dungeons & Dragons.

By Andrew S. Bub | August 11, 2002


Dave Arneson Dave Arneson is the father of role-playing, no really; it says so on his business card. But he's no braggart and that is no idle boast. Arneson co-created Dungeons and Dragons, the world's first role-playing game. Arneson has a paternal nature. He's soft-spoken, and slow moving. He has a kind face and a wide grin. He seems genuinely appreciative of his fans and he counts other gaming legends like Sandy Petersen (Call of Cthulhu, Ensemble Studios) among them. He's settled down now and living in Florida. But gaming isn't behind him, he teaches a course in Game Design at Florida's Full Sail University (http://www.fullsail.com/). Yes, that's Professor Dave Arneson to you kid! For an elder statesman of pen and paper gaming Dave moves quickly on the show floor, I missed him on the first pass, losing him in a crowd. The second time I caught up with him, and got the following interview:

GameSpy: You co-created Dungeons & Dragons. When did your interest in games begin?

Dave Arneson: We began what became eventually Dungeons & Dragons back in 1971; the game was actually published in 1974.

GameSpy: It began with what was basically a miniatures club, a group of wargamers, right?

Dave Arneson: I had a regular miniatures group that played wargames for, oh, 10 years at that point. We started it in the early '60's really. I had of course encountered role-playing in College. In history classes. And then I applied some of that to our wargames…

GameSpy: You mean "role-playing" by, um, pretending to be Abraham Lincoln?

Dave Arneson: Yeah. We created the Continental Congress and because I knew things the teacher didn't share with the students we ended up not having the Continental Congress, Delaware rejoined the Empire and New York and New Hampshire were at war. Anyway, (laughs) I was accused by my professor of perverting his exercises… and well, it was true I did, and he was mad at me. The same thing happened with the French Revolution, and he accused me of introducing these random events that were of no historical interest at all.


GameSpy: Isn't that exactly what wargames do? Introduce random things into history that change events? Lee winning at Gettysburg, that sort of thing?

Dave Arneson: Yeah. That's right. In our own games we got tired of taking the town, or the hill. So we started thinking about other objectives in a scenario, and to do that we had to give our Generals personality.

GameSpy: You had to role-play them.

Dave Arneson: We found that by doing that players started to identify with them. So, we'd role-play diplomacy and how they'd act out there on the battlefield. D&D sort of came about after a monster marathon week of reading Conan novels, eating popcorn until it was coming out of my ears-no I was not on drugs-and we got the idea to do something in a dungeon. So I wrote the dungeon. All my players showed up and instead of having a nice neat battlefield to fight on there was a castle and all these buildings and they were told they were going to go down and adventure in a dungeon.

GameSpy: What did these wargamers think of that idea?

Dave Arneson: Well, they went along with it and most of them had a great time. So, we literally did that every weekend for probably the next six-months, I had one guy who was a security guard and he'd call me on the phone from work and want to play, every day…

GameSpy: I can't tell you how many D&D players still do that in the High School cafeteria.

Dave Arneson: I know. So, as it started out it wasn't a major gaming effort as such but I was then adding rules and modifying things to make it ongoing. We had to change the old wargame system Gary (Gary Gygax) used in Chainmail.

The beginning of Blackmoor

GameSpy: And this led to the rules eventually published in Blackmoor?

Dave Arneson: And that led to Blackmoor. Yeah, I was really creative: Blackmoor Dungeon, Blackmoor Castle, Blackmoor Village, all in the Province of Blackmoor. (Laughs) Ok, I could have thought of names but…

Anyway, when we tried to use the old matrix rules (for Chainmail) only one die decided combat. So either the player would die or the monster would die. Well, the players didn't like that, so that's where I came up with hit points. Actually I got that from a set of Civil War Naval Rules where you had Armor Class and Hit Points and guns would do different damage.

Next: The D&D Movie »

GameSpy: After Blackmoor, how much longer did you work on D&D?

Dave Arneson: After about a year of playing it we went down and met Gary's group and they liked it. We thought we had something publishable here, and sent him all my notes, which subsequently appeared in the first fantasy campaign, we exchanged copious amounts of correspondence, and the rules were finally published in 1974. My involvement ended in 1976, we had a… it was me and Gary that had a difference of opinion, but I had a difference of opinion with TSR. And that led to… that was the first lawsuit, there's been five, but I can't talk about any of that. So that ended my involvement with TSR and D&D. When Gary became President (of TSR) in 1985 he commissioned me to do a series of modules for the world of Blackmoor. We got to the fourth module and again the company changed hands, and the new people didn't want to do it, so, that was it!

So what's my involvement? I do all the conventions. I talk about it. I use it for my classes. I think I've still had a lot of influence on rules in spite of not being officially involved but it was not until 3rd Edition came about and they involved me in the playtesting that I again had any direct involvement in D&D.

GameSpy: You were involved in the D&D movie, weren't you?

Dave Arneson: I was in the movie as an actor. I was there standing in the background throwing a fireball at a dragon.

GameSpy: I don't remember you…

Dave Arneson: (Laughs) Well when you're standing in a 300 foot tower and there's twelve of you throwing fireballs at dragons, I think it's really stupid. But it was all in the movie. Y'know I didn't find out they were making the movie until about halfway through the filming. And then they found out I was alive, instead of the rumor that I was dead, which was why they hadn't tried to contact me. They were nice. They sent me to Prague for a week and since it was a crowd scene they put me in.

Dave Arneson and Sandy Petersen

GameSpy: Are there plans for future movies?

Dave Arneson: There was talk of it but… I don't hear anything. When you're dealing with Hollywood when they're ready to contact you they do it and they want you to come next week.

GameSpy: Right now you're teaching a class at what school?

Dave Arneson: For the last three years I've been teaching a class in Computer Game Design and Documentation at the Full Sail University in Orlando Florida. I have no idea why they call it Full Sail or why their logo is a DC-3… they explained it to me once but I still don't get it. But I'm Professor Arneson now, I helped them establish the program, we've now had 200 grads, we probably have that many enrolled now-I'm kind of a victim of my own success-we started with 6-8 guys!

GameSpy: Have your students played your games? Are they familiar with your work?

Dave Arneson: Oh yeah, I would say generally half of them have played D&D. It's supposed to be a computer game course, but I'm using all games. If you don't teach the basics of gameplay, it doesn't work. Also, my students can't finish the course until they complete a playable game.

GameSpy: Is it satisfying to shepherd designers through? Anyone famous graduate from your program?

Dave Arneson: Yeah, it's very satisfying. And not yet, it's only been a couple years. They go on to become entry-level programmers. Our students are far better trained then your usual entry-level programmers. They'll get there one day.

GameSpy: Any new games coming from you?

Dave Arneson: We're redoing Blackmoor. But we're playing a little hard to get right now.

GameSpy: Do you play computer games?

Dave Arneson: Oh sure. I play a lot of computer games. In fact, you can get an A in my course if you can beat me in Age of Empires 2.

GameSpy: I bet nobody stands a chance. Thanks for your time Dave, it was a real pleasure. Have a great time in Milwaukee.
Dave Arneson: Thank You!•

*****

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20090412134 ... ndex.shtml


Read the Second Gamespy Interview (2004) with Dave Arneson here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=644&p=6693#p6693

-Havard]]> Dave Arneson Interview
Dave Arneson, "the Father of Role-Playing," was making the rounds at Gen Con and we got the scoop on what he is up to since helping create Dungeons & Dragons.

By Andrew S. Bub | August 11, 2002


Dave Arneson Dave Arneson is the father of role-playing, no really; it says so on his business card. But he's no braggart and that is no idle boast. Arneson co-created Dungeons and Dragons, the world's first role-playing game. Arneson has a paternal nature. He's soft-spoken, and slow moving. He has a kind face and a wide grin. He seems genuinely appreciative of his fans and he counts other gaming legends like Sandy Petersen (Call of Cthulhu, Ensemble Studios) among them. He's settled down now and living in Florida. But gaming isn't behind him, he teaches a course in Game Design at Florida's Full Sail University (http://www.fullsail.com/). Yes, that's Professor Dave Arneson to you kid! For an elder statesman of pen and paper gaming Dave moves quickly on the show floor, I missed him on the first pass, losing him in a crowd. The second time I caught up with him, and got the following interview:

GameSpy: You co-created Dungeons & Dragons. When did your interest in games begin?

Dave Arneson: We began what became eventually Dungeons & Dragons back in 1971; the game was actually published in 1974.

GameSpy: It began with what was basically a miniatures club, a group of wargamers, right?

Dave Arneson: I had a regular miniatures group that played wargames for, oh, 10 years at that point. We started it in the early '60's really. I had of course encountered role-playing in College. In history classes. And then I applied some of that to our wargames…

GameSpy: You mean "role-playing" by, um, pretending to be Abraham Lincoln?

Dave Arneson: Yeah. We created the Continental Congress and because I knew things the teacher didn't share with the students we ended up not having the Continental Congress, Delaware rejoined the Empire and New York and New Hampshire were at war. Anyway, (laughs) I was accused by my professor of perverting his exercises… and well, it was true I did, and he was mad at me. The same thing happened with the French Revolution, and he accused me of introducing these random events that were of no historical interest at all.


GameSpy: Isn't that exactly what wargames do? Introduce random things into history that change events? Lee winning at Gettysburg, that sort of thing?

Dave Arneson: Yeah. That's right. In our own games we got tired of taking the town, or the hill. So we started thinking about other objectives in a scenario, and to do that we had to give our Generals personality.

GameSpy: You had to role-play them.

Dave Arneson: We found that by doing that players started to identify with them. So, we'd role-play diplomacy and how they'd act out there on the battlefield. D&D sort of came about after a monster marathon week of reading Conan novels, eating popcorn until it was coming out of my ears-no I was not on drugs-and we got the idea to do something in a dungeon. So I wrote the dungeon. All my players showed up and instead of having a nice neat battlefield to fight on there was a castle and all these buildings and they were told they were going to go down and adventure in a dungeon.

GameSpy: What did these wargamers think of that idea?

Dave Arneson: Well, they went along with it and most of them had a great time. So, we literally did that every weekend for probably the next six-months, I had one guy who was a security guard and he'd call me on the phone from work and want to play, every day…

GameSpy: I can't tell you how many D&D players still do that in the High School cafeteria.

Dave Arneson: I know. So, as it started out it wasn't a major gaming effort as such but I was then adding rules and modifying things to make it ongoing. We had to change the old wargame system Gary (Gary Gygax) used in Chainmail.

The beginning of Blackmoor

GameSpy: And this led to the rules eventually published in Blackmoor?

Dave Arneson: And that led to Blackmoor. Yeah, I was really creative: Blackmoor Dungeon, Blackmoor Castle, Blackmoor Village, all in the Province of Blackmoor. (Laughs) Ok, I could have thought of names but…

Anyway, when we tried to use the old matrix rules (for Chainmail) only one die decided combat. So either the player would die or the monster would die. Well, the players didn't like that, so that's where I came up with hit points. Actually I got that from a set of Civil War Naval Rules where you had Armor Class and Hit Points and guns would do different damage.

Next: The D&D Movie »

GameSpy: After Blackmoor, how much longer did you work on D&D?

Dave Arneson: After about a year of playing it we went down and met Gary's group and they liked it. We thought we had something publishable here, and sent him all my notes, which subsequently appeared in the first fantasy campaign, we exchanged copious amounts of correspondence, and the rules were finally published in 1974. My involvement ended in 1976, we had a… it was me and Gary that had a difference of opinion, but I had a difference of opinion with TSR. And that led to… that was the first lawsuit, there's been five, but I can't talk about any of that. So that ended my involvement with TSR and D&D. When Gary became President (of TSR) in 1985 he commissioned me to do a series of modules for the world of Blackmoor. We got to the fourth module and again the company changed hands, and the new people didn't want to do it, so, that was it!

So what's my involvement? I do all the conventions. I talk about it. I use it for my classes. I think I've still had a lot of influence on rules in spite of not being officially involved but it was not until 3rd Edition came about and they involved me in the playtesting that I again had any direct involvement in D&D.

GameSpy: You were involved in the D&D movie, weren't you?

Dave Arneson: I was in the movie as an actor. I was there standing in the background throwing a fireball at a dragon.

GameSpy: I don't remember you…

Dave Arneson: (Laughs) Well when you're standing in a 300 foot tower and there's twelve of you throwing fireballs at dragons, I think it's really stupid. But it was all in the movie. Y'know I didn't find out they were making the movie until about halfway through the filming. And then they found out I was alive, instead of the rumor that I was dead, which was why they hadn't tried to contact me. They were nice. They sent me to Prague for a week and since it was a crowd scene they put me in.

Dave Arneson and Sandy Petersen

GameSpy: Are there plans for future movies?

Dave Arneson: There was talk of it but… I don't hear anything. When you're dealing with Hollywood when they're ready to contact you they do it and they want you to come next week.

GameSpy: Right now you're teaching a class at what school?

Dave Arneson: For the last three years I've been teaching a class in Computer Game Design and Documentation at the Full Sail University in Orlando Florida. I have no idea why they call it Full Sail or why their logo is a DC-3… they explained it to me once but I still don't get it. But I'm Professor Arneson now, I helped them establish the program, we've now had 200 grads, we probably have that many enrolled now-I'm kind of a victim of my own success-we started with 6-8 guys!

GameSpy: Have your students played your games? Are they familiar with your work?

Dave Arneson: Oh yeah, I would say generally half of them have played D&D. It's supposed to be a computer game course, but I'm using all games. If you don't teach the basics of gameplay, it doesn't work. Also, my students can't finish the course until they complete a playable game.

GameSpy: Is it satisfying to shepherd designers through? Anyone famous graduate from your program?

Dave Arneson: Yeah, it's very satisfying. And not yet, it's only been a couple years. They go on to become entry-level programmers. Our students are far better trained then your usual entry-level programmers. They'll get there one day.

GameSpy: Any new games coming from you?

Dave Arneson: We're redoing Blackmoor. But we're playing a little hard to get right now.

GameSpy: Do you play computer games?

Dave Arneson: Oh sure. I play a lot of computer games. In fact, you can get an A in my course if you can beat me in Age of Empires 2.

GameSpy: I bet nobody stands a chance. Thanks for your time Dave, it was a real pleasure. Have a great time in Milwaukee.
Dave Arneson: Thank You!•

*****

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20090412134 ... ndex.shtml


Read the Second Gamespy Interview (2004) with Dave Arneson here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=644&p=6693#p6693

-Havard]]> <![CDATA[[The Guardian] Dave Arneson Obituary by Michael Stackpole]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1770 Wed, 02 Apr 2014 04:44:35 -0600 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1770 David Arneson
Co-creator of the role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons

-------
Michael A Stackpole
The Guardian, Friday 24 April 2009
-------

Dave Arneson, who has died aged 61, was the American co-creator of Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) and the father of role-playing games. He was a fixture in the gaming industry even before it was an industry, his work having driven that transition, as well as spawning books, movies and computer games - and creator of a pop-culture phenomenon that brought joy to millions.

Born in Hennepin County, Minnesota, Dave started playing Gettysburg, the board game that re-enacts the American civil war battle of the same name, in the 1960s. While studying history at the University of Minnesota, he moved into playing military miniatures games, with ranks of toy soldiers. In 1969, while refereeing a Romans v Gauls contest, Dave allowed a player who had painted up a Gaul shaman to call upon the gods to destroy a Roman elephant. As the Roman player laughed, Dave described a lightning bolt destroying the elephant. In that instant, role-playing was born.

The same year, Dave met Gary Gygax at the gaming convention Gen Con at Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, thus beginning the collaboration that would lead to the creation of D&D. The two first worked together on Don't Give up the Ship, a set of naval miniatures rules eventually published in 1971. In 1970, Dave began working on Blackmoor - the first role-playing game. As is common practice among game designers, he incorporated bits of other rules into Blackmoor, including parts of Gygax's medieval rules Chainmail.

By 1974 they had produced D&D. None of the existing game companies wanted to produce it and its creators lacked the funds to do so themselves. Dave was then a security guard. In the end, a friend came up with the money, and Gygax formed his own company, Tactical Studies Rules (later TSR) to produce the new fantasy role-playing game. The first 500 copies sold out within a year. D&D introduced dragons, wizards, trolls, dwarves, goblins and elves to quests in search of treasure or to defeat the forces of evil. Without a board, all this was achieved with just graph paper, pencils, the polygonal dice and a set of complex rules.

Dave's focus rescued role-playing from miniatures rules long on tables, tape-measures and army units. He brought the game down to single characters, drawing inspiration from the fantasy works of authors such as JRR Tolkien and Jack Vance. Individual players assumed their roles and sought to complete quests organised by the gamemaster in sessions that could last for hours, and in campaigns that could carry on for months and years.

For Dave, the fun was in the by-play between characters and the application of cleverness when it came to problem-solving. Role-playing at its best is cooperative storytelling and his strength was in creating settings and rules that encouraged this.

Dave and Gygax went their separate ways in the late 1970s, and in 1979 Dave filed the first of five lawsuits to recover his royalties. One part of the agreement was that TSR was obliged to refer to Dave as the co-creator of D&D. The settlements also paid him a significant sum, with which he founded Adventure Games and 4D Interactive Systems, Inc - one of the first computer game companies. He generously used the settlement to help numerous small game companies through the 1980s, despite knowing he would see little, if any, of that money back. He was loved by game designers, and in 1984 was elected to the Academy of Gaming Arts and Design hall of fame. (Gygax died last year.)

In the late 1980s, Dave shut down Adventure Games and moved to California. He worked with Sleuth Publications for a time and did a great deal of freelance work. He also worked with special needs students. He was a great advocate of the educational use of games and role-playing.

In his later years, he moved to Florida to teach game design at Full Sail University, work he greatly enjoyed, especially when he could take students on a "field trip" - to a convention. His affable demeanour made it easy to forget how insightful he was. Often enough his eyes would narrow and a discussion would turn serious. He would solve a problem, smile and make a joke.

Personable and possessed of a wry sense of humour, Dave was very approachable, and kind to the awestruck. In 1980, as a new employee of the games company Flying Buffalo, I met him at a convention. We ended up in a coffee shop, had lunch together, and struck up a close friendship.

Even when he was diagnosed with cancer, he remained positive. Last August, he attended Gen Con once again, where 39 years previously he had begun his career. As his daughter said, he just wanted everyone to have fun and be happy. And there, surrounded by throngs of gamers, he was at his happiest.

In 1984, Dave married Frankie Morneau; they later divorced. He is survived by his daughter, Malia, her husband, Luke Weinhagen, and his grandchildren, Shelby and Duncan.

• David Lance (Dave) Arneson, game designer, born 1 October 1947; died 7 April 2009


******

Source:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... ns-creator


-Havard]]> David Arneson
Co-creator of the role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons

-------
Michael A Stackpole
The Guardian, Friday 24 April 2009
-------

Dave Arneson, who has died aged 61, was the American co-creator of Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) and the father of role-playing games. He was a fixture in the gaming industry even before it was an industry, his work having driven that transition, as well as spawning books, movies and computer games - and creator of a pop-culture phenomenon that brought joy to millions.

Born in Hennepin County, Minnesota, Dave started playing Gettysburg, the board game that re-enacts the American civil war battle of the same name, in the 1960s. While studying history at the University of Minnesota, he moved into playing military miniatures games, with ranks of toy soldiers. In 1969, while refereeing a Romans v Gauls contest, Dave allowed a player who had painted up a Gaul shaman to call upon the gods to destroy a Roman elephant. As the Roman player laughed, Dave described a lightning bolt destroying the elephant. In that instant, role-playing was born.

The same year, Dave met Gary Gygax at the gaming convention Gen Con at Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, thus beginning the collaboration that would lead to the creation of D&D. The two first worked together on Don't Give up the Ship, a set of naval miniatures rules eventually published in 1971. In 1970, Dave began working on Blackmoor - the first role-playing game. As is common practice among game designers, he incorporated bits of other rules into Blackmoor, including parts of Gygax's medieval rules Chainmail.

By 1974 they had produced D&D. None of the existing game companies wanted to produce it and its creators lacked the funds to do so themselves. Dave was then a security guard. In the end, a friend came up with the money, and Gygax formed his own company, Tactical Studies Rules (later TSR) to produce the new fantasy role-playing game. The first 500 copies sold out within a year. D&D introduced dragons, wizards, trolls, dwarves, goblins and elves to quests in search of treasure or to defeat the forces of evil. Without a board, all this was achieved with just graph paper, pencils, the polygonal dice and a set of complex rules.

Dave's focus rescued role-playing from miniatures rules long on tables, tape-measures and army units. He brought the game down to single characters, drawing inspiration from the fantasy works of authors such as JRR Tolkien and Jack Vance. Individual players assumed their roles and sought to complete quests organised by the gamemaster in sessions that could last for hours, and in campaigns that could carry on for months and years.

For Dave, the fun was in the by-play between characters and the application of cleverness when it came to problem-solving. Role-playing at its best is cooperative storytelling and his strength was in creating settings and rules that encouraged this.

Dave and Gygax went their separate ways in the late 1970s, and in 1979 Dave filed the first of five lawsuits to recover his royalties. One part of the agreement was that TSR was obliged to refer to Dave as the co-creator of D&D. The settlements also paid him a significant sum, with which he founded Adventure Games and 4D Interactive Systems, Inc - one of the first computer game companies. He generously used the settlement to help numerous small game companies through the 1980s, despite knowing he would see little, if any, of that money back. He was loved by game designers, and in 1984 was elected to the Academy of Gaming Arts and Design hall of fame. (Gygax died last year.)

In the late 1980s, Dave shut down Adventure Games and moved to California. He worked with Sleuth Publications for a time and did a great deal of freelance work. He also worked with special needs students. He was a great advocate of the educational use of games and role-playing.

In his later years, he moved to Florida to teach game design at Full Sail University, work he greatly enjoyed, especially when he could take students on a "field trip" - to a convention. His affable demeanour made it easy to forget how insightful he was. Often enough his eyes would narrow and a discussion would turn serious. He would solve a problem, smile and make a joke.

Personable and possessed of a wry sense of humour, Dave was very approachable, and kind to the awestruck. In 1980, as a new employee of the games company Flying Buffalo, I met him at a convention. We ended up in a coffee shop, had lunch together, and struck up a close friendship.

Even when he was diagnosed with cancer, he remained positive. Last August, he attended Gen Con once again, where 39 years previously he had begun his career. As his daughter said, he just wanted everyone to have fun and be happy. And there, surrounded by throngs of gamers, he was at his happiest.

In 1984, Dave married Frankie Morneau; they later divorced. He is survived by his daughter, Malia, her husband, Luke Weinhagen, and his grandchildren, Shelby and Duncan.

• David Lance (Dave) Arneson, game designer, born 1 October 1947; died 7 April 2009


******

Source:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... ns-creator


-Havard]]> <![CDATA[[Sham's Blog] Q&A With Greg Svenson]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1726 Thu, 27 Feb 2014 09:04:53 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1726 http://shamsgrog.blogspot.no/2009/05/q- ... enson.html

SATURDAY, MAY 30, 2009

Q&A with Greg Svenson
With Dave Arneson's recent passing, our hobby lost one of the most important links to its earliest, formative days. Arneson & Gygax will be forever remembered as the coauthors and founders of Dungeons & Dragons, but there is so much more to Mr. Arneson that we were never truly allowed to learn while growing up in the 70s, 80s and beyond while playing the game that his Blackmoor campaign spawned. I've read with wonder the stories that Greg “Svenny” Svenson shared with readers at his website before it was taken down*. As a player in the original Blackmoor campaign, Greg is one of only a handful of gamers who were present to witness the fledgling game sessions which eventually gave rise to the entire table top role-playing genre (and beyond).

I believe that remembering the magnitude of Dave Arneson's concept, and his Blackmoor campaign, is perhaps more timely now than ever before. As someone who is interested in the influences and inspirations that went into Mr. Arneson's Blackmoor campaign, I felt that being able to pose some questions to the Great Svenny himself might be an opportunity I couldn't pass up. I wasn't sure that my random email to his site's address would even be answered, let alone read considering that it was sent not long after Dave Arneson's passing. I had no idea that Greg had attended Dave's funeral, nor that he had delivered the eulogy. I was wary about pursuing this Q&A considering the nature of its less than appropriate timing, but Greg assured me that he would be happy to take a look at what I had drafted up and let me know what he thought of the idea.

During our various correspondences I learned that at the funeral Greg had seen another Blackmoor player from the early days, Stephen “Rocky” Rocheford**. Greg was able to later email Stephen and have him look over the answers below. Stephen was kind enough to confirm Greg's recollections of those events from the early 70s in the Twin Cities, before Dave Arneson had taken a position with TSR in Lake Geneva, WI in 1975.

My reasons for this Q&A were multiple, and I will let the answers speak for themselves. I think that Greg did an outstanding job in answering these questions considering that nearly four decades have transpired since that very first Blackmoor game in 1971.

---Start Q&A---

Greg: I haven't really been interviewed like this before, so I shared my answers with one of the other guys who was one of the players on that original dungeon adventure in Dave Arneson's basement back in 1971, Stephen Rocheford (later known as St. Stephen from the Temple of the Frog adventure). He was probably just as active as a player as I was though the early years of the Blackmoor campaign and D&D. I saw him for the first time in over 25 years at Dave Arneson's funeral. He agreed with my answers to all of your questions except for the date when Dave Wesely got home from the Army which I have corrected in my answer.

Sham: First of all I’d like to thank Greg for taking the time to read and consider these questions, and allow me to share his responses for the readers of my web log. Greg, when did Dave Arneson actually begin his Blackmoor games, to the best of your knowledge? When and how were you introduced to Blackmoor?

Greg: You are welcome; hopefully I will be able to answer your questions. Nobody is really sure when we started playing Blackmoor. My recollection was that we played the first adventure over the Christmas holidays during the winter of 1970-1971; but, I am not really sure. The first documented Blackmoor game was on May 21, 1971. Dave Arneson found that in an old “Corner of the Table” newsletter article a few months ago. The “Corner of the Table” was Dave’s newsletter for our Napoleonics campaign. Dave recently came across a complete set of them.

Sham: Were you around for Dave Wesely’s Braunsteins that helped introduce the concept of role-playing and a referee? Was Dave Wesely a player in any of the Blackmoor sessions you were a part of?

Greg: No, I was not part of that. Wesely was in the Army Reserves and was activated and sent to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas and later to Alaska during the early years of the Blackmoor campaign. He came home in the October/November 1973 timeframe. We did play together at least a few times when he was on leave as well as after he came home.

Sham: I’ve theorized that the concept which Dave Arneson formulated was based on a combination of wargame combat simulation, the ongoing wargame style campaign, the role-play/referee idea that Wesely introduced, and fantasy/medieval inspiration. In other words, wargaming meets role-play meets fantasy. Do you have any thoughts to offer on this assessment?

Greg: Well, that’s basically true, but it really isn’t that simple. The fantasy/medieval elements of Blackmoor were totally new to me at the time (although, I had read Tolkien and some other fantasy literature). However, in the Napoleonic campaign that we had been playing before that first adventure was a combination of miniatures and diplomacy. Dave Arneson was the referee and each of the players represented the sovereign, a political faction, a general and/or an admiral in their respective countries. So, for the campaign we would try to correspond player to player and write battle reports “in character”. We were responsible for our nation’s diplomacy and even the national budget down to buying food, forage, powder and shot, as well as running the military campaigns and fighting the battles that came about as a result of our actions...We had also been playing “Fight in the Skies” where each player was a WWI fighter pilot tracking his missions and kills and getting better with experience. Before I joined Dave Arneson’s gaming group my home gaming group in Excelsior, Minnesota had been playing Korns*** for several years. Korns was a set of WWII rules where each player was a single soldier and we had a referee keeping track of both sides and resolving actions as the game progressed, at least that was the way we played it. I am sure that others in the group had similar gaming background experiences to mine.

Sham: Your character rose to great prominence in Dave’s Blackmoor campaign. Your character, The Great Svenny, is now a full fledged legendary NPC in published Blackmoor games. What would be the Great Svenny’s proudest moment during those many Blackmoor sessions? Aside from the Great Svenny’s accomplishments, what are some of your favorite memories from Dave’s Blackmoor games?

Greg: Yes, I have been startled to surf the internet and find web sites where they described how the Great Svenny was involved with that gaming groups adventures. That was a really weird experience for me...The two greatest moments that stick out in my memory are the two adventures I described on my website; surviving the first dungeon adventure and the raid on the lair of Fred Funk’s Orc tribe on the 10th level of Blackmoor dungeon. I participated in literally hundreds of adventures between early 1971 and 1975, but those are the two I have the clearest memories of. I hardly even remember the famous “Temple of the Frog” and “Valley of the Ancients” adventures. I know I was there, but they were not as memorable for me.

Sham: For how many years did you play as The Great Svenny in Blackmoor, and what exactly is the Great Svenny up to at this very moment?

Greg: I was actively playing Svenny from the beginning up until when Dave Arneson moved to Lake Geneva to work for TSR in 1975. I played with him again at GenCon in 1976 and at a reunion game in 1991. When I started gaming with Dave again in Orlando in 1999, I played Svenny’s son, Sol, although I called him Svenny Junior at first, until I put together Svenny's family history. I am currently playing Sol in an online play by post game (the Tomb of Rahotep in honor of Gary Gygax on the Wayfarer's Inn website). I have also been playing one of his grandchildren, Sven, in another play by post game (the Grim Winter campaign on the Zeitgeist Games MMRPG website)...Svenny is currently the Lord High Regent of the Regency Council of the Kingdom of Blackmoor in the D&D 3.5 Edition version of the Blackmoor campaign. I am currently working out what Svenny’s family would look like for the D&D 4th Edition Blackmoor campaign which is set some 270 years later.

Sham: In reading your stories of those early Blackmoor days, I learned that certain important monsters or villains were often controlled by other players. Was there ever a point in Dave’s Blackmoor games where the emphasis became the adventuring group, or was it usually adversarial between the players who mostly pursued their own individual goals?

Greg: We switched from the good guys versus the bad guys sessions to just one adventuring group fairly quickly. We realized that it was more fun if everyone was on one team working together. There were still people playing the bad guys, but that was usually in their own gaming sessions separate from the ones I was in; although, sometimes Dave would still ask for a volunteer to play the monster during a battle.

Sham: I’m aware that Blackmoor was much more than simply a dungeon crawl, but I enjoyed your telling of the First Dungeon Adventure and how your character survived it. After that adventure did the dungeon setting become a major focus of the campaign?

Greg: Well, we stopped making dungeon maps when the group realized that I had much of the dungeon memorized. Of course, that led to problems when Svenny was incapacitated and unable to tell everyone how to get back out of the dungeon. It was the major emphasis for a while, but we quickly moved out into the wilderness. We also had a period of several months, after some of us read the “Tarnsman of Gor” books, where we were traveling around on tarns (think of Rocs in the “Lord of the Rings”). That was after Gary Gygax had started his campaign because one of our adventures was to travel to Grayhawk on tarnback to rescue Gary’s players who had gotten into trouble.

Sham: I understand that as you gained knowledge and experience playing in Dave’s game you also took some turns behind the referee’s screen, running Blackmoor adventures for other players. What was that like? And do you ever have the opportunity to play or run Blackmoor these days?

Greg: In the fall of 1972 Dave Arneson gave me some of his notes and let me referee a couple of times when he was busy with other things. Dave tells me that I was the third DM ever. Later I developed a town called Tonisborg, complete with two dungeons. I didn’t think that I was very good at it. I guess I was comparing myself to Dave. At any rate, I didn’t DM very often; although, I must have DMed more often than I remember from what Bob Meyer has told me about the days when we were roommates in 1973 & 1974. Unfortunately, I loaned my Tonisborg materials to a friend to use for a game day and he never returned them, which was around 1980 or so when I lived in Boston. I have not run any Blackmoor (or other D&D) games since the early 1980's when I ran games for my church's youth group.

Sham: Would you say that Blackmoor evolved, in both rules content and as a campaign world, as a result of the player/character courses of action?

Greg: Of course, it evolved and very quickly. Using Chainmail rules on the first adventure, when you got hit the first time you were dead. We didn’t like that much, so the next time we played we had hit points. Within a month Dave introduced armor classes. There were many changes over time. One time when we were off adventuring the bad guys attacked and captured the then defenseless town of Blackmoor, leveling Zvenzen’s Freehold among other things. We all got banished to the swamps of Loc Gloomin for that one…

Sham: While refereeing Blackmoor for other players, how did you handle actions by the characters which were not covered by the rules? Was referee ad-libbing a vital aspect of the Blackmoor games?

Greg: I quickly came up with what the possibilities might be and either had the players roll dice against a related character attribute for success or on a table I made up in my head on the fly. This was an area that I felt I was not very good at, however, because Dave would just tell us to roll the dice and he then told us what happened.

Sham: You were playing in Blackmoor before D&D was published, and again afterwards. What impact did the release of that version of the rules have upon Dave’s personal campaign?

Greg: As soon as a draft was available we started play testing with them, but I don’t think it really changed how the game went when Dave was the DM. That’s just my opinion. The big difference was that others (like me) were more easily able to DM. All of the sessions I DMed were part of the same Blackmoor campaign that Dave was running. Often I was helping players get to a higher level so they could survive with the other higher level players.

Sham: What was Dave’s early opinion of TSR’s 1974 D&D game? For that matter, what was the general opinion of you and the other players in Blackmoor when you finally saw the original D&D game?

Greg: Dave was excited about it, but I am not sure what he actually thought about it, I don’t remember him ever talking to me about it in that way. I thought it was one and the same thing with what we had already been doing for several years. So, I didn’t really see much of a difference.

Sham: I’ve developed great respect for Dave’s impact to the gaming world. In my opinion he is often unfairly discredited in certain quarters for his lack of actual input to D&D. If you can recall, what were the major differences between Dave’s Blackmoor, and D&D in 1974?

Greg: Like I just said, I thought they were one and the same. They had just been organized, to make it easier for other people to use to run games. The individual levels and things like that were new, but the way we played we didn’t really notice the difference. Attributes were different, we had used two d6’s to get a number from 1 to 10, where we changed to three d6’s and a range from 3 to 18, but most were just changes in mechanics...We were not keeping our own records or character sheets as they are called now. Dave had an index card on each of the players (and NPCs) with their attributes, HP, possessions and other useful notes. I only remember seeing Svenny’s character card a couple of times. Unfortunately, it never occurred to me to copy the information off of it for my own records. Dave told me a few months ago that he had been going though one of his boxes and discovered what he thought were all of our original character cards. I don’t know what happened to them after that, however.

Sham: From what I gather Dave’s major accomplishment was combining the essential elements of what was to become fantasy role-playing with Blackmoor, the same elements that were subsequently found in D&D. Would you agree that each of the essential elements was present in pre-D&D Blackmoor?

1. Characters

Greg: Yes, of course.

2. Ability Scores

Greg: Yes. I am not sure when Dave added them since he kept our character cards, but we were definitely using them during the spring of 1972, because I have definite memories involving ability scores that happened before I went away for the summer of 1972.

3. Hit Points

Greg: Yes, within the first month.

4. Experience/Levels

Greg: Yes, although handled differently. Fighters went from flunky to hero to superhero. We didn’t track our experience points as is done now. Dave simply told us when we had transitioned from one level to another. I do not know if wizards and clerics had different levels of ability or not.

5. Mechanics/Randomization

Greg: Yes, but again handled differently. Sometimes, we would roll against our related ability to resolve a task. Other times Dave would just say we were successful or not after we had described what we intended to do (he might have made a roll at the time, it may or may not have had any bearing in what happened).

6. Adventuring Groups

Greg: Yes, the first adventure involved two groups.

7. Exploration

Greg: Yes, we didn’t have maps of the area. Anytime we traveled we had to find our way, even just leaving the town of Blackmoor itself and going into the nearby countryside was a major adventure. Part of the adventure was getting lost. Sometimes that was the adventure.

8. Hazards/Challenges

Greg: Yes, problem solving was a big part of our gaming sessions, really the major part.

9. Treasure

Greg: Yes, we found money, stuff and magic items in the lairs of the monsters we killed.

10. Fantasy Setting

Greg: Yes

Sham: I’d also like to specifically ask about certain D&D features and whether or not they were present in the early Blackmoor games, to the best of your recollection.

1. Saving Throws

Greg: Yes, maybe with different mechanics. Dave just told us to roll and he would tell us what happened…

2. Clerics vs. Undead (Turning Undead)

Greg: Mike Carr**** played the Bishop of Blackmoor pretty much from the beginning. I think of him as being able to heal and on one or two occasions resurrect the dead. I do not recall when turning the undead came into it, but it was not a concept that was unfamiliar to me, either. I have to say that I am not sure.

3. Wandering Monsters

Greg: They were there from the first adventure on. We could see Dave rolling before he would announce an encounter.

4. Alignment

Greg: Absolutely, we had good and evil characters in the very first dungeon adventure; if fact, Dave’s perception of our alignment, as it is called now, affected whether we were able to hold the magic sword we found during that first adventure. Several of the players were injured when they picked it up. In fact, I was the only player who didn’t try to pick it up. I was afraid to try after seeing what happened to the other unsuccessful players. When I was the last one standing and the battle was over, I picked it up and wrapped it using a piece of leather, so that I would not come in contact with it and then carried it out of the dungeon and immediately sold it to the baron of Blackmoor for a whopping 150 GP.

5. Spell Levels

Greg: I was never a magic user in the original campaign, so I don’t really know the mechanics of how spells were handled. Pete Gaylord, Kurt Krey or Richard Snider would have a much better idea of how that worked.

6. Henchmen/Hirelings

Greg: Yes, after Svenny became a “super hero” I was able to hire soldiers and servants. That was how we were able to staff Zvenzen’s Freehold, for example. Slavery was also an option, at least initially. Svenny bought a slave once.

Sham: What was it about D&D that made it such a smashing success, in your opinion?

Greg: The limitless options for the players made it so much fun that it was hard not to enjoy yourself even when your character died in the adventure.

Sham: What other role-playing games have you had the chance to run or play in? Do you have a favorite role-playing game besides Blackmoor?

Greg: Blackmoor is the only D&D setting I have ever run a game in. I have especially enjoyed “Space: 1889” and “Traveller” (CT, MT and T4). I have played many others, including “Powers and Perils”, “Adventures in Fantasy”, “Shadowrun”, “Star Wars”, “GURPS” (fantasy, Traveller & WW2) and “Twilight: 2000”.

Sham: What do you feel Dave Arneson’s legacy to the hobby will be? Furthermore, what do you feel Dave Arneson’s legacy to the hobby should be?

Greg: To me, Dave Arneson is the father of modern role-playing games. They didn’t really exist before we played Blackmoor. They were a new concept at the time and he is the person who put it all together.

Sham: Have you ever worked in the role-playing field, or has it always been simply an entertaining diversion? What details can you tell the readers about yourself since those days playing in Blackmoor with Dave Arneson?

Greg: Not really, I made an attempt to edit John Snider’s “Star Empires” RPG rules back in 1983 for Adventure Games while I was working for 4D Interactive Systems (both companies were primarily owned by Dave Arneson) as a video game programmer, but it never got published. John had written it back in the mid-1970s and it had languished at TSR for years. By the time I looked at it, it was really out dated, although, in my opinion, if it had come out before or at the same time as “Traveller” it would have taken the Sci-Fi RPG market hands down...As for me, I am a computer geek. I have been in Information Systems/Technology for over thirty-two years. I spent a year and a half writing video games for 4D Interactive Systems back in ‘83 and ‘84. The rest of the time I have been with large companies, mostly in the aerospace industry. I am a Christian. The Lord has been very good to me. I am married to a wonderful woman, Paula. We have five children and two grandchildren.

Sham: Greg, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, including the many D&D related inquiries. My goal has been to not only learn more about the early Blackmoor games, and your role in helping shape that famous campaign, but to also further the legacy of Dave Arneson and remind readers of his impact on our hobby. Are there any details about Dave Arneson that you would like to share with the readers?

Greg: You are welcome. I am glad that I was able to answer most of your questions. With Dave’s passing, I have had lots of chances to think about him. His daughter asked me to do the eulogy at his funeral service, so I have thought a lot about his life. Dave was a humble man. I never saw him push his agenda at someone else’s expense or put himself ahead of others. He was always concerned about other peoples well being. He wanted everyone to be happy and have fun. He was generous and thoughtful, both with me and my family. My wife thought of him as a kind and gallant gentleman. He wanted to live at peace with everyone. I know that in the last few years he attempted to reconcile with those who had issues with him, including Gary Gygax and Tim Kask.

I hope you and your readers are edified by reading this.

---End Q&A---

I'd like to thank Greg, as well as Stephen, for taking the time to answer these questions about not only Blackmoor, but also about their good friend Dave Arneson who sadly left us far too early. It was very touching to read Greg's heartfelt answer to my last question, and I hope that readers can come away from this Q&A with a better appreciation of not only Dave Arneson's legacy, but also of the man himself.

* - Per an email from Greg, his early Blackmoor stories will once again be available as they are to be hosted at Havard's Blackmoor site in the near future. Stephen and Greg have just started collaborating on the First Dungeon Adventure story in order to bring back even more of the details. In the meantime you can read Greg Svenson's First Dungeon Adventure in Fight On! Issue 2.

** - Stephen Rocheford had the perhaps singular honor of actually reviewing Dave Arneson's original manuscript, detailing Blackmoor, before it was sent off to TSR and transformed into Dungeons & Dragons.

*** - Michael F. Korns Modern War in Miniature, 1966.

**** - Mike Carr, designer of Fight in the Skies, author of B1: In Search of the Unknown, Editor of AD&D Monster Manual, Player's Handbook, and Dungeon Master's Guide.

~Sham, Quixotic Referee


*****

Reposted by Havard, for the sake of preservation.]]> http://shamsgrog.blogspot.no/2009/05/q- ... enson.html

SATURDAY, MAY 30, 2009

Q&A with Greg Svenson
With Dave Arneson's recent passing, our hobby lost one of the most important links to its earliest, formative days. Arneson & Gygax will be forever remembered as the coauthors and founders of Dungeons & Dragons, but there is so much more to Mr. Arneson that we were never truly allowed to learn while growing up in the 70s, 80s and beyond while playing the game that his Blackmoor campaign spawned. I've read with wonder the stories that Greg “Svenny” Svenson shared with readers at his website before it was taken down*. As a player in the original Blackmoor campaign, Greg is one of only a handful of gamers who were present to witness the fledgling game sessions which eventually gave rise to the entire table top role-playing genre (and beyond).

I believe that remembering the magnitude of Dave Arneson's concept, and his Blackmoor campaign, is perhaps more timely now than ever before. As someone who is interested in the influences and inspirations that went into Mr. Arneson's Blackmoor campaign, I felt that being able to pose some questions to the Great Svenny himself might be an opportunity I couldn't pass up. I wasn't sure that my random email to his site's address would even be answered, let alone read considering that it was sent not long after Dave Arneson's passing. I had no idea that Greg had attended Dave's funeral, nor that he had delivered the eulogy. I was wary about pursuing this Q&A considering the nature of its less than appropriate timing, but Greg assured me that he would be happy to take a look at what I had drafted up and let me know what he thought of the idea.

During our various correspondences I learned that at the funeral Greg had seen another Blackmoor player from the early days, Stephen “Rocky” Rocheford**. Greg was able to later email Stephen and have him look over the answers below. Stephen was kind enough to confirm Greg's recollections of those events from the early 70s in the Twin Cities, before Dave Arneson had taken a position with TSR in Lake Geneva, WI in 1975.

My reasons for this Q&A were multiple, and I will let the answers speak for themselves. I think that Greg did an outstanding job in answering these questions considering that nearly four decades have transpired since that very first Blackmoor game in 1971.

---Start Q&A---

Greg: I haven't really been interviewed like this before, so I shared my answers with one of the other guys who was one of the players on that original dungeon adventure in Dave Arneson's basement back in 1971, Stephen Rocheford (later known as St. Stephen from the Temple of the Frog adventure). He was probably just as active as a player as I was though the early years of the Blackmoor campaign and D&D. I saw him for the first time in over 25 years at Dave Arneson's funeral. He agreed with my answers to all of your questions except for the date when Dave Wesely got home from the Army which I have corrected in my answer.

Sham: First of all I’d like to thank Greg for taking the time to read and consider these questions, and allow me to share his responses for the readers of my web log. Greg, when did Dave Arneson actually begin his Blackmoor games, to the best of your knowledge? When and how were you introduced to Blackmoor?

Greg: You are welcome; hopefully I will be able to answer your questions. Nobody is really sure when we started playing Blackmoor. My recollection was that we played the first adventure over the Christmas holidays during the winter of 1970-1971; but, I am not really sure. The first documented Blackmoor game was on May 21, 1971. Dave Arneson found that in an old “Corner of the Table” newsletter article a few months ago. The “Corner of the Table” was Dave’s newsletter for our Napoleonics campaign. Dave recently came across a complete set of them.

Sham: Were you around for Dave Wesely’s Braunsteins that helped introduce the concept of role-playing and a referee? Was Dave Wesely a player in any of the Blackmoor sessions you were a part of?

Greg: No, I was not part of that. Wesely was in the Army Reserves and was activated and sent to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas and later to Alaska during the early years of the Blackmoor campaign. He came home in the October/November 1973 timeframe. We did play together at least a few times when he was on leave as well as after he came home.

Sham: I’ve theorized that the concept which Dave Arneson formulated was based on a combination of wargame combat simulation, the ongoing wargame style campaign, the role-play/referee idea that Wesely introduced, and fantasy/medieval inspiration. In other words, wargaming meets role-play meets fantasy. Do you have any thoughts to offer on this assessment?

Greg: Well, that’s basically true, but it really isn’t that simple. The fantasy/medieval elements of Blackmoor were totally new to me at the time (although, I had read Tolkien and some other fantasy literature). However, in the Napoleonic campaign that we had been playing before that first adventure was a combination of miniatures and diplomacy. Dave Arneson was the referee and each of the players represented the sovereign, a political faction, a general and/or an admiral in their respective countries. So, for the campaign we would try to correspond player to player and write battle reports “in character”. We were responsible for our nation’s diplomacy and even the national budget down to buying food, forage, powder and shot, as well as running the military campaigns and fighting the battles that came about as a result of our actions...We had also been playing “Fight in the Skies” where each player was a WWI fighter pilot tracking his missions and kills and getting better with experience. Before I joined Dave Arneson’s gaming group my home gaming group in Excelsior, Minnesota had been playing Korns*** for several years. Korns was a set of WWII rules where each player was a single soldier and we had a referee keeping track of both sides and resolving actions as the game progressed, at least that was the way we played it. I am sure that others in the group had similar gaming background experiences to mine.

Sham: Your character rose to great prominence in Dave’s Blackmoor campaign. Your character, The Great Svenny, is now a full fledged legendary NPC in published Blackmoor games. What would be the Great Svenny’s proudest moment during those many Blackmoor sessions? Aside from the Great Svenny’s accomplishments, what are some of your favorite memories from Dave’s Blackmoor games?

Greg: Yes, I have been startled to surf the internet and find web sites where they described how the Great Svenny was involved with that gaming groups adventures. That was a really weird experience for me...The two greatest moments that stick out in my memory are the two adventures I described on my website; surviving the first dungeon adventure and the raid on the lair of Fred Funk’s Orc tribe on the 10th level of Blackmoor dungeon. I participated in literally hundreds of adventures between early 1971 and 1975, but those are the two I have the clearest memories of. I hardly even remember the famous “Temple of the Frog” and “Valley of the Ancients” adventures. I know I was there, but they were not as memorable for me.

Sham: For how many years did you play as The Great Svenny in Blackmoor, and what exactly is the Great Svenny up to at this very moment?

Greg: I was actively playing Svenny from the beginning up until when Dave Arneson moved to Lake Geneva to work for TSR in 1975. I played with him again at GenCon in 1976 and at a reunion game in 1991. When I started gaming with Dave again in Orlando in 1999, I played Svenny’s son, Sol, although I called him Svenny Junior at first, until I put together Svenny's family history. I am currently playing Sol in an online play by post game (the Tomb of Rahotep in honor of Gary Gygax on the Wayfarer's Inn website). I have also been playing one of his grandchildren, Sven, in another play by post game (the Grim Winter campaign on the Zeitgeist Games MMRPG website)...Svenny is currently the Lord High Regent of the Regency Council of the Kingdom of Blackmoor in the D&D 3.5 Edition version of the Blackmoor campaign. I am currently working out what Svenny’s family would look like for the D&D 4th Edition Blackmoor campaign which is set some 270 years later.

Sham: In reading your stories of those early Blackmoor days, I learned that certain important monsters or villains were often controlled by other players. Was there ever a point in Dave’s Blackmoor games where the emphasis became the adventuring group, or was it usually adversarial between the players who mostly pursued their own individual goals?

Greg: We switched from the good guys versus the bad guys sessions to just one adventuring group fairly quickly. We realized that it was more fun if everyone was on one team working together. There were still people playing the bad guys, but that was usually in their own gaming sessions separate from the ones I was in; although, sometimes Dave would still ask for a volunteer to play the monster during a battle.

Sham: I’m aware that Blackmoor was much more than simply a dungeon crawl, but I enjoyed your telling of the First Dungeon Adventure and how your character survived it. After that adventure did the dungeon setting become a major focus of the campaign?

Greg: Well, we stopped making dungeon maps when the group realized that I had much of the dungeon memorized. Of course, that led to problems when Svenny was incapacitated and unable to tell everyone how to get back out of the dungeon. It was the major emphasis for a while, but we quickly moved out into the wilderness. We also had a period of several months, after some of us read the “Tarnsman of Gor” books, where we were traveling around on tarns (think of Rocs in the “Lord of the Rings”). That was after Gary Gygax had started his campaign because one of our adventures was to travel to Grayhawk on tarnback to rescue Gary’s players who had gotten into trouble.

Sham: I understand that as you gained knowledge and experience playing in Dave’s game you also took some turns behind the referee’s screen, running Blackmoor adventures for other players. What was that like? And do you ever have the opportunity to play or run Blackmoor these days?

Greg: In the fall of 1972 Dave Arneson gave me some of his notes and let me referee a couple of times when he was busy with other things. Dave tells me that I was the third DM ever. Later I developed a town called Tonisborg, complete with two dungeons. I didn’t think that I was very good at it. I guess I was comparing myself to Dave. At any rate, I didn’t DM very often; although, I must have DMed more often than I remember from what Bob Meyer has told me about the days when we were roommates in 1973 & 1974. Unfortunately, I loaned my Tonisborg materials to a friend to use for a game day and he never returned them, which was around 1980 or so when I lived in Boston. I have not run any Blackmoor (or other D&D) games since the early 1980's when I ran games for my church's youth group.

Sham: Would you say that Blackmoor evolved, in both rules content and as a campaign world, as a result of the player/character courses of action?

Greg: Of course, it evolved and very quickly. Using Chainmail rules on the first adventure, when you got hit the first time you were dead. We didn’t like that much, so the next time we played we had hit points. Within a month Dave introduced armor classes. There were many changes over time. One time when we were off adventuring the bad guys attacked and captured the then defenseless town of Blackmoor, leveling Zvenzen’s Freehold among other things. We all got banished to the swamps of Loc Gloomin for that one…

Sham: While refereeing Blackmoor for other players, how did you handle actions by the characters which were not covered by the rules? Was referee ad-libbing a vital aspect of the Blackmoor games?

Greg: I quickly came up with what the possibilities might be and either had the players roll dice against a related character attribute for success or on a table I made up in my head on the fly. This was an area that I felt I was not very good at, however, because Dave would just tell us to roll the dice and he then told us what happened.

Sham: You were playing in Blackmoor before D&D was published, and again afterwards. What impact did the release of that version of the rules have upon Dave’s personal campaign?

Greg: As soon as a draft was available we started play testing with them, but I don’t think it really changed how the game went when Dave was the DM. That’s just my opinion. The big difference was that others (like me) were more easily able to DM. All of the sessions I DMed were part of the same Blackmoor campaign that Dave was running. Often I was helping players get to a higher level so they could survive with the other higher level players.

Sham: What was Dave’s early opinion of TSR’s 1974 D&D game? For that matter, what was the general opinion of you and the other players in Blackmoor when you finally saw the original D&D game?

Greg: Dave was excited about it, but I am not sure what he actually thought about it, I don’t remember him ever talking to me about it in that way. I thought it was one and the same thing with what we had already been doing for several years. So, I didn’t really see much of a difference.

Sham: I’ve developed great respect for Dave’s impact to the gaming world. In my opinion he is often unfairly discredited in certain quarters for his lack of actual input to D&D. If you can recall, what were the major differences between Dave’s Blackmoor, and D&D in 1974?

Greg: Like I just said, I thought they were one and the same. They had just been organized, to make it easier for other people to use to run games. The individual levels and things like that were new, but the way we played we didn’t really notice the difference. Attributes were different, we had used two d6’s to get a number from 1 to 10, where we changed to three d6’s and a range from 3 to 18, but most were just changes in mechanics...We were not keeping our own records or character sheets as they are called now. Dave had an index card on each of the players (and NPCs) with their attributes, HP, possessions and other useful notes. I only remember seeing Svenny’s character card a couple of times. Unfortunately, it never occurred to me to copy the information off of it for my own records. Dave told me a few months ago that he had been going though one of his boxes and discovered what he thought were all of our original character cards. I don’t know what happened to them after that, however.

Sham: From what I gather Dave’s major accomplishment was combining the essential elements of what was to become fantasy role-playing with Blackmoor, the same elements that were subsequently found in D&D. Would you agree that each of the essential elements was present in pre-D&D Blackmoor?

1. Characters

Greg: Yes, of course.

2. Ability Scores

Greg: Yes. I am not sure when Dave added them since he kept our character cards, but we were definitely using them during the spring of 1972, because I have definite memories involving ability scores that happened before I went away for the summer of 1972.

3. Hit Points

Greg: Yes, within the first month.

4. Experience/Levels

Greg: Yes, although handled differently. Fighters went from flunky to hero to superhero. We didn’t track our experience points as is done now. Dave simply told us when we had transitioned from one level to another. I do not know if wizards and clerics had different levels of ability or not.

5. Mechanics/Randomization

Greg: Yes, but again handled differently. Sometimes, we would roll against our related ability to resolve a task. Other times Dave would just say we were successful or not after we had described what we intended to do (he might have made a roll at the time, it may or may not have had any bearing in what happened).

6. Adventuring Groups

Greg: Yes, the first adventure involved two groups.

7. Exploration

Greg: Yes, we didn’t have maps of the area. Anytime we traveled we had to find our way, even just leaving the town of Blackmoor itself and going into the nearby countryside was a major adventure. Part of the adventure was getting lost. Sometimes that was the adventure.

8. Hazards/Challenges

Greg: Yes, problem solving was a big part of our gaming sessions, really the major part.

9. Treasure

Greg: Yes, we found money, stuff and magic items in the lairs of the monsters we killed.

10. Fantasy Setting

Greg: Yes

Sham: I’d also like to specifically ask about certain D&D features and whether or not they were present in the early Blackmoor games, to the best of your recollection.

1. Saving Throws

Greg: Yes, maybe with different mechanics. Dave just told us to roll and he would tell us what happened…

2. Clerics vs. Undead (Turning Undead)

Greg: Mike Carr**** played the Bishop of Blackmoor pretty much from the beginning. I think of him as being able to heal and on one or two occasions resurrect the dead. I do not recall when turning the undead came into it, but it was not a concept that was unfamiliar to me, either. I have to say that I am not sure.

3. Wandering Monsters

Greg: They were there from the first adventure on. We could see Dave rolling before he would announce an encounter.

4. Alignment

Greg: Absolutely, we had good and evil characters in the very first dungeon adventure; if fact, Dave’s perception of our alignment, as it is called now, affected whether we were able to hold the magic sword we found during that first adventure. Several of the players were injured when they picked it up. In fact, I was the only player who didn’t try to pick it up. I was afraid to try after seeing what happened to the other unsuccessful players. When I was the last one standing and the battle was over, I picked it up and wrapped it using a piece of leather, so that I would not come in contact with it and then carried it out of the dungeon and immediately sold it to the baron of Blackmoor for a whopping 150 GP.

5. Spell Levels

Greg: I was never a magic user in the original campaign, so I don’t really know the mechanics of how spells were handled. Pete Gaylord, Kurt Krey or Richard Snider would have a much better idea of how that worked.

6. Henchmen/Hirelings

Greg: Yes, after Svenny became a “super hero” I was able to hire soldiers and servants. That was how we were able to staff Zvenzen’s Freehold, for example. Slavery was also an option, at least initially. Svenny bought a slave once.

Sham: What was it about D&D that made it such a smashing success, in your opinion?

Greg: The limitless options for the players made it so much fun that it was hard not to enjoy yourself even when your character died in the adventure.

Sham: What other role-playing games have you had the chance to run or play in? Do you have a favorite role-playing game besides Blackmoor?

Greg: Blackmoor is the only D&D setting I have ever run a game in. I have especially enjoyed “Space: 1889” and “Traveller” (CT, MT and T4). I have played many others, including “Powers and Perils”, “Adventures in Fantasy”, “Shadowrun”, “Star Wars”, “GURPS” (fantasy, Traveller & WW2) and “Twilight: 2000”.

Sham: What do you feel Dave Arneson’s legacy to the hobby will be? Furthermore, what do you feel Dave Arneson’s legacy to the hobby should be?

Greg: To me, Dave Arneson is the father of modern role-playing games. They didn’t really exist before we played Blackmoor. They were a new concept at the time and he is the person who put it all together.

Sham: Have you ever worked in the role-playing field, or has it always been simply an entertaining diversion? What details can you tell the readers about yourself since those days playing in Blackmoor with Dave Arneson?

Greg: Not really, I made an attempt to edit John Snider’s “Star Empires” RPG rules back in 1983 for Adventure Games while I was working for 4D Interactive Systems (both companies were primarily owned by Dave Arneson) as a video game programmer, but it never got published. John had written it back in the mid-1970s and it had languished at TSR for years. By the time I looked at it, it was really out dated, although, in my opinion, if it had come out before or at the same time as “Traveller” it would have taken the Sci-Fi RPG market hands down...As for me, I am a computer geek. I have been in Information Systems/Technology for over thirty-two years. I spent a year and a half writing video games for 4D Interactive Systems back in ‘83 and ‘84. The rest of the time I have been with large companies, mostly in the aerospace industry. I am a Christian. The Lord has been very good to me. I am married to a wonderful woman, Paula. We have five children and two grandchildren.

Sham: Greg, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, including the many D&D related inquiries. My goal has been to not only learn more about the early Blackmoor games, and your role in helping shape that famous campaign, but to also further the legacy of Dave Arneson and remind readers of his impact on our hobby. Are there any details about Dave Arneson that you would like to share with the readers?

Greg: You are welcome. I am glad that I was able to answer most of your questions. With Dave’s passing, I have had lots of chances to think about him. His daughter asked me to do the eulogy at his funeral service, so I have thought a lot about his life. Dave was a humble man. I never saw him push his agenda at someone else’s expense or put himself ahead of others. He was always concerned about other peoples well being. He wanted everyone to be happy and have fun. He was generous and thoughtful, both with me and my family. My wife thought of him as a kind and gallant gentleman. He wanted to live at peace with everyone. I know that in the last few years he attempted to reconcile with those who had issues with him, including Gary Gygax and Tim Kask.

I hope you and your readers are edified by reading this.

---End Q&A---

I'd like to thank Greg, as well as Stephen, for taking the time to answer these questions about not only Blackmoor, but also about their good friend Dave Arneson who sadly left us far too early. It was very touching to read Greg's heartfelt answer to my last question, and I hope that readers can come away from this Q&A with a better appreciation of not only Dave Arneson's legacy, but also of the man himself.

* - Per an email from Greg, his early Blackmoor stories will once again be available as they are to be hosted at Havard's Blackmoor site in the near future. Stephen and Greg have just started collaborating on the First Dungeon Adventure story in order to bring back even more of the details. In the meantime you can read Greg Svenson's First Dungeon Adventure in Fight On! Issue 2.

** - Stephen Rocheford had the perhaps singular honor of actually reviewing Dave Arneson's original manuscript, detailing Blackmoor, before it was sent off to TSR and transformed into Dungeons & Dragons.

*** - Michael F. Korns Modern War in Miniature, 1966.

**** - Mike Carr, designer of Fight in the Skies, author of B1: In Search of the Unknown, Editor of AD&D Monster Manual, Player's Handbook, and Dungeon Master's Guide.

~Sham, Quixotic Referee


*****

Reposted by Havard, for the sake of preservation.]]> <![CDATA[[DEN Repost] Dave Arneson Interview (2004)]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1647 Sun, 08 Dec 2013 08:47:26 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1647 Digital Entertainment News Repost

Dave Arneson created Dungeons and Dragons with Gary Gygax.
Posted by Harold Foundary on Mar 15th, 2004


Dave Arneson is the father of Dungeons & Dragons. It’s existence is owed to his original designs, and nearly all major conventions in modern role playing games stems from some decisions he and his group of adventurers made in the early 70’s. From the use of 20-sided dice, to hit-points, to armor class, to experience points; the basic concepts of almost every RPG ever made were originally created on the campus of Kansas U. in the early 70’s by Dave Arneson and his band of geeks.
Today, Arneson lives in Florida and teaches game design courses at Full Sail University. We chatted with him about computer games, the birth of role playing, and the prevalence of the Orc in gaming. We found that he’s a curmudgeonly gamer and is none too pleased with the modern state of electronic gaming.

So, where did you get 20 sided dice from?


We were in the very beginning using the six siders, but when we started doing the fantasy games, I dug out some 20-sided dice I’d purchased in England in the mid 60’s. I went to a game store — well, a historical miniatures store — in London, right off of… I think it was at Picadilly, I’m not sure. And I went upstairs to their gaming area and they had these little boxes of 20-sided dice, and I thought “oh, how cool!” And so I picked up three pair, and I came back home with them and tried to introduce them into our military games, but the guys would have nothing to do with them. We had several mathematicians, and working out percentages for six-sided die were child’s play for them, but it gave me a headache. So really, the dice sat there for three or four years. Then we did fantasy, and I said “hey, let’s use this stuff for it.” So when we started on Blackmoor, we started using 20-sided dice at the same time. Go figure. They’re gamers, you know?

How did you decide on probabilities and percentage chances of the various things you could do? How did you translate real world probabilities into dice rolls?


Well, I could tell you I had it all planned out, but that wouldn’t be true. And I could tell you I faked it all, and that wouldn’t be true either. We adapted. We started out using the Chainmail combat system. They had a fantasy supplement for Chainmail. I think we used that for two games. We quickly discovered it didn’t work for what we were doing since they were mass-combat rules not individual rules. We were doing role playing and they weren’t role playing. We started off our monster list, and I think Chainmail had only seven or eight monsters. So we quickly came up with twenty or thirty. We tried setting them up in a matrix, but that didn’t work because it was quickly taking up an entire wall. So, I adopted a combat system I used for Civil War Ironclads because they had armor class, hit points, all that stuff. And we did that for the monsters, we assigned values to them: giants are big, orcs are little. We tried to make the creature’s power similar to what its size was. We tried to give each monster a special power that wasn’t overwhelming, which was harder than I thought. It’s easy to come up with incredibly powerful abilities, not so simple to make small ones.
What do you think of 3rd edition D&D and the open source design of the D20 system?
Well, since I’m about to publish the Blackmoor campaign in the D20 system, yeah, it’s working out quite nicely. I’ve wanted to do this for a while. I had to negotiate with Wizards of the Coast for a year. As soon as I started, they got sold to Hasbro, nobody knew who to talk to, nobody wanted to take responsibility. But now it’s done and I’m very pleased.
I didn’t expect them to do that (open source). You’re still encouraging people to buy your core rule books, and it allows just about anybody who wants to to publish modules, which, although it’s very profitable, it’s always very time consuming.

Are you primarily a fantasy gamer? Do you ever do sci-fi stuff?
I’m primarily a fantasy gamer and historical miniatures.
What sort of computer games do you teach about?
Our students are required to produce a beta version of a game in order to graduate. I’ve been, in some respect, involved in somewhere around 200 games over the last four and a half years. Games of all shapes and sizes. I prefer the real time strategy games. As I say when I talk about first person shooters: my twitcher doesn’t twitch quick enough to have me survive.


What RTS games do you enjoy?

Oh… Warcraft. Age of Empires. Those are the two main ones right now.
Of all the places that Orcs appear, do you have a favorite? Tolkein? Warcraft? D&D?
I prefer David Sutherland Pigfaced Orc myself. he’s the original orc with a very pig snout on him. Because I thought it was so ridiculous it was cute. When they’re used properly, I’d say the D&D Orc. When I say properly, that’s not when they make them big and powerful. All too often the referee simply decides that they don’t want to throw endless waves of Orcs so let’s just make them big and powerful. I think that’s a weakness on the part of the referee. I think they should be able to find a way to use them even if they’re relatively weak.

Aside from Blackmoor, what other fantasy settings do you run your campaigns in?
Tekumel. Was invented by Professor MAR Phil Barker in Minnesota. I met him, in fact, about the time D&D was published. He has a fantasy setting, he’s developed it over the last 35 years, even before D&D, as an intellectual exercise. and his group has met regularly every week for the last 30 years. One of the very first settings that TSR ever published was Empire of the Pettle Throne. It’s a very rich culture, has it’s own language. It’s a little too exotic for some people, so it never really caught on. But Barker has published many versions of his game since them and, I think six novels.

What other types of games do you play?

Uhm, the simple board games, like House Divided. The new version of Battle Cry, not the old version. The board game has to be short and fun. To be quite honest with, even though I’ve had some excellent people try to teach me Magic: the Gathering, including Richard Garfield and his father, I’m really not any good at that. Chess… I was on the chess team in high school and in college. It was too predictable and I had to think really really hard. Over the years I’ve found that if there’s something where I have to think really really hard it’s no fun. So I backed off on that. I was pretty good, but not on a championship level.

What do you think the most important aspect of game design is?


Game Mechanics. Making a balanced game. It doesn’t happen very often. Especially in computer games… The problem in computer games is they’ve got sequel-itis up the wazoo! Good grief. We did a survey in class and the kids, all thirty-aught of them had to admit that there’s very little under the sun out there. A lot of it’s the publishers. They want to play it safe. They don’t want to do anything experimental. Look at the problem Will Wright had selling Maxis on The Sims. I mean, if my best game designer came up to me with a really weird off-the-wall idea, I wouldn’t argue with him!

When I started gaming back in the 60’s, there’d be one new game a year from the Avalon Hill company. And it was a very good game, and again, good game mechanics is central. But you couldn’t pick and choose. But today, we figured out that, including shareware games, there’s about 10,000 games produced, of which maybe 200 actually get into a store someplace. And maybe about a half dozen are worth playing.

These guys are under a lot of pressure to get the games out, and often times what happens is they don’t really test them ahead of time. They have a lot of bugs and stuff. We get after our students about that. We know they’ve only got four guys and six months to get a game out. We’ve had some good ones, and we’ve had some that were so buggy they barely ran.

Have any of the games your student’s produced been published?

Well, we’ve had twenty or thirty of our students go on to design successful games for SSIE and Microsoft. I keep wanting to say Zeppy and Mr. Fez, but that’s not what it came out as. I’m not sure that that was one that got published as that was one I really liked.

Who would you say is getting it all right? What published, what developer makes near perfect games?

None. Again, I think they’re under a lot of preasure to get the game out and a lot of them cut corners. I think there are some good basic games out there, don’t get me wrong. I don’t play first person shooters because I’m not good at them. There are some good shooters out there, though. That’s just not my genre. What can I say? I won a prize one time for an Age of Empires tournament in Alabama.

What about older games? XCom?

Well, you have to consider what they had to work with. It’s easy to say those were crummy games, but they were fun in their time. I mean, I liked Seven Cities of Gold, yet that was, in many respects, dorky. I mean, you had to dance with the natives to get to the chief. It was silly. But it was fun! And you were always generating new worlds, and I thought that was cool. Some of the early Ultima games that I got into: they were a lot of fun. Did they do it perfectly? Well, they didn’t do it the way I would do it. So, obviously, they’re not perfect, but obviously, that’s just my taste.
I mean, you want to ask me about some of the new role playing games they’re coming out with, and some have been very good! Don’t get me wrong. But again, I wouldn’t have done it that way. I played Neverwinter Nights. I’ve got it installed on my machine. It’s still there. That puts it up with only three games that are still installed on my machine. Warcraft, Age of Empires, Neverwinter Nights.

If you could jump on a development team and direct a project, who would you join?

Oh, I’d probably like work with the Neverwinter Nights people at some point. They seem to have a good notion about what to do. I’m sure some of the things they don’t do are their decisions, machine decisions, etc. I’ve learned enough about computers and programming from this school to understand this better over the last four and a half years. It’s easy to say “Oh, they’re not doing it right.” But, could they do it any other way? Well, the answer is probably no, at this point. Also, you’ve got to get the game done in a couple of years.


You get these teams, they’ve been together for a while. Maybe they don’t have a lot of new ideas, but they know each other. But that’s the problem, you have a 30 to 40 percent turn-over rate on projects, It’s hard to keep an act together because you’re still talking about a couple dozen people. You know, we’ve got the old core team from 4D Interactive systems (a company Arneson founded in the early 80’s). That’s eight guys. They’ve been working together for 25 years. It’s kinda spooky to watch them. They don’t seem to talk to each other. I think it’s a telepathic link between them all. But that’s an old team. They know what to do, they know who’s doing what. They’re not afraid to ask each other questions. Get a new team, and somebody new on the team. Is he going to squeak and say something to someone who’s been doing it for five years? Probably not.

What do you think of the parallel between your creation of D&D through modification and redesigning of older game ideas and the modern day phenomenon of the game Mod?

Well, on the one hand, more power to them. But on the other, they better realize that changing a game is not the same as creating a game. It’s a lot harder to come up with the original idea than it is to modify something that’s already out there. That was one of the things that got me excited about Neverwinter Nights. People are much more excited about changing games than being just players.

What do you think of MMPOG’s?

Well, at one time my entire family; my son-in-law, daughter, we were all playing Everquest. So obviously we’ve tried it out. There were some limitations in Everquest when you were trying to cooperate as a group. Then we played Dark Age of Camelot, and that was better. It’s getting better. When people can actually interact with each other and can be identified as participants, not just as an anonymous guy with a credit card, it makes it fun.

*********************

Reposted by Havard]]> Digital Entertainment News Repost

Dave Arneson created Dungeons and Dragons with Gary Gygax.
Posted by Harold Foundary on Mar 15th, 2004


Dave Arneson is the father of Dungeons & Dragons. It’s existence is owed to his original designs, and nearly all major conventions in modern role playing games stems from some decisions he and his group of adventurers made in the early 70’s. From the use of 20-sided dice, to hit-points, to armor class, to experience points; the basic concepts of almost every RPG ever made were originally created on the campus of Kansas U. in the early 70’s by Dave Arneson and his band of geeks.
Today, Arneson lives in Florida and teaches game design courses at Full Sail University. We chatted with him about computer games, the birth of role playing, and the prevalence of the Orc in gaming. We found that he’s a curmudgeonly gamer and is none too pleased with the modern state of electronic gaming.

So, where did you get 20 sided dice from?


We were in the very beginning using the six siders, but when we started doing the fantasy games, I dug out some 20-sided dice I’d purchased in England in the mid 60’s. I went to a game store — well, a historical miniatures store — in London, right off of… I think it was at Picadilly, I’m not sure. And I went upstairs to their gaming area and they had these little boxes of 20-sided dice, and I thought “oh, how cool!” And so I picked up three pair, and I came back home with them and tried to introduce them into our military games, but the guys would have nothing to do with them. We had several mathematicians, and working out percentages for six-sided die were child’s play for them, but it gave me a headache. So really, the dice sat there for three or four years. Then we did fantasy, and I said “hey, let’s use this stuff for it.” So when we started on Blackmoor, we started using 20-sided dice at the same time. Go figure. They’re gamers, you know?

How did you decide on probabilities and percentage chances of the various things you could do? How did you translate real world probabilities into dice rolls?


Well, I could tell you I had it all planned out, but that wouldn’t be true. And I could tell you I faked it all, and that wouldn’t be true either. We adapted. We started out using the Chainmail combat system. They had a fantasy supplement for Chainmail. I think we used that for two games. We quickly discovered it didn’t work for what we were doing since they were mass-combat rules not individual rules. We were doing role playing and they weren’t role playing. We started off our monster list, and I think Chainmail had only seven or eight monsters. So we quickly came up with twenty or thirty. We tried setting them up in a matrix, but that didn’t work because it was quickly taking up an entire wall. So, I adopted a combat system I used for Civil War Ironclads because they had armor class, hit points, all that stuff. And we did that for the monsters, we assigned values to them: giants are big, orcs are little. We tried to make the creature’s power similar to what its size was. We tried to give each monster a special power that wasn’t overwhelming, which was harder than I thought. It’s easy to come up with incredibly powerful abilities, not so simple to make small ones.
What do you think of 3rd edition D&D and the open source design of the D20 system?
Well, since I’m about to publish the Blackmoor campaign in the D20 system, yeah, it’s working out quite nicely. I’ve wanted to do this for a while. I had to negotiate with Wizards of the Coast for a year. As soon as I started, they got sold to Hasbro, nobody knew who to talk to, nobody wanted to take responsibility. But now it’s done and I’m very pleased.
I didn’t expect them to do that (open source). You’re still encouraging people to buy your core rule books, and it allows just about anybody who wants to to publish modules, which, although it’s very profitable, it’s always very time consuming.

Are you primarily a fantasy gamer? Do you ever do sci-fi stuff?
I’m primarily a fantasy gamer and historical miniatures.
What sort of computer games do you teach about?
Our students are required to produce a beta version of a game in order to graduate. I’ve been, in some respect, involved in somewhere around 200 games over the last four and a half years. Games of all shapes and sizes. I prefer the real time strategy games. As I say when I talk about first person shooters: my twitcher doesn’t twitch quick enough to have me survive.


What RTS games do you enjoy?

Oh… Warcraft. Age of Empires. Those are the two main ones right now.
Of all the places that Orcs appear, do you have a favorite? Tolkein? Warcraft? D&D?
I prefer David Sutherland Pigfaced Orc myself. he’s the original orc with a very pig snout on him. Because I thought it was so ridiculous it was cute. When they’re used properly, I’d say the D&D Orc. When I say properly, that’s not when they make them big and powerful. All too often the referee simply decides that they don’t want to throw endless waves of Orcs so let’s just make them big and powerful. I think that’s a weakness on the part of the referee. I think they should be able to find a way to use them even if they’re relatively weak.

Aside from Blackmoor, what other fantasy settings do you run your campaigns in?
Tekumel. Was invented by Professor MAR Phil Barker in Minnesota. I met him, in fact, about the time D&D was published. He has a fantasy setting, he’s developed it over the last 35 years, even before D&D, as an intellectual exercise. and his group has met regularly every week for the last 30 years. One of the very first settings that TSR ever published was Empire of the Pettle Throne. It’s a very rich culture, has it’s own language. It’s a little too exotic for some people, so it never really caught on. But Barker has published many versions of his game since them and, I think six novels.

What other types of games do you play?

Uhm, the simple board games, like House Divided. The new version of Battle Cry, not the old version. The board game has to be short and fun. To be quite honest with, even though I’ve had some excellent people try to teach me Magic: the Gathering, including Richard Garfield and his father, I’m really not any good at that. Chess… I was on the chess team in high school and in college. It was too predictable and I had to think really really hard. Over the years I’ve found that if there’s something where I have to think really really hard it’s no fun. So I backed off on that. I was pretty good, but not on a championship level.

What do you think the most important aspect of game design is?


Game Mechanics. Making a balanced game. It doesn’t happen very often. Especially in computer games… The problem in computer games is they’ve got sequel-itis up the wazoo! Good grief. We did a survey in class and the kids, all thirty-aught of them had to admit that there’s very little under the sun out there. A lot of it’s the publishers. They want to play it safe. They don’t want to do anything experimental. Look at the problem Will Wright had selling Maxis on The Sims. I mean, if my best game designer came up to me with a really weird off-the-wall idea, I wouldn’t argue with him!

When I started gaming back in the 60’s, there’d be one new game a year from the Avalon Hill company. And it was a very good game, and again, good game mechanics is central. But you couldn’t pick and choose. But today, we figured out that, including shareware games, there’s about 10,000 games produced, of which maybe 200 actually get into a store someplace. And maybe about a half dozen are worth playing.

These guys are under a lot of pressure to get the games out, and often times what happens is they don’t really test them ahead of time. They have a lot of bugs and stuff. We get after our students about that. We know they’ve only got four guys and six months to get a game out. We’ve had some good ones, and we’ve had some that were so buggy they barely ran.

Have any of the games your student’s produced been published?

Well, we’ve had twenty or thirty of our students go on to design successful games for SSIE and Microsoft. I keep wanting to say Zeppy and Mr. Fez, but that’s not what it came out as. I’m not sure that that was one that got published as that was one I really liked.

Who would you say is getting it all right? What published, what developer makes near perfect games?

None. Again, I think they’re under a lot of preasure to get the game out and a lot of them cut corners. I think there are some good basic games out there, don’t get me wrong. I don’t play first person shooters because I’m not good at them. There are some good shooters out there, though. That’s just not my genre. What can I say? I won a prize one time for an Age of Empires tournament in Alabama.

What about older games? XCom?

Well, you have to consider what they had to work with. It’s easy to say those were crummy games, but they were fun in their time. I mean, I liked Seven Cities of Gold, yet that was, in many respects, dorky. I mean, you had to dance with the natives to get to the chief. It was silly. But it was fun! And you were always generating new worlds, and I thought that was cool. Some of the early Ultima games that I got into: they were a lot of fun. Did they do it perfectly? Well, they didn’t do it the way I would do it. So, obviously, they’re not perfect, but obviously, that’s just my taste.
I mean, you want to ask me about some of the new role playing games they’re coming out with, and some have been very good! Don’t get me wrong. But again, I wouldn’t have done it that way. I played Neverwinter Nights. I’ve got it installed on my machine. It’s still there. That puts it up with only three games that are still installed on my machine. Warcraft, Age of Empires, Neverwinter Nights.

If you could jump on a development team and direct a project, who would you join?

Oh, I’d probably like work with the Neverwinter Nights people at some point. They seem to have a good notion about what to do. I’m sure some of the things they don’t do are their decisions, machine decisions, etc. I’ve learned enough about computers and programming from this school to understand this better over the last four and a half years. It’s easy to say “Oh, they’re not doing it right.” But, could they do it any other way? Well, the answer is probably no, at this point. Also, you’ve got to get the game done in a couple of years.


You get these teams, they’ve been together for a while. Maybe they don’t have a lot of new ideas, but they know each other. But that’s the problem, you have a 30 to 40 percent turn-over rate on projects, It’s hard to keep an act together because you’re still talking about a couple dozen people. You know, we’ve got the old core team from 4D Interactive systems (a company Arneson founded in the early 80’s). That’s eight guys. They’ve been working together for 25 years. It’s kinda spooky to watch them. They don’t seem to talk to each other. I think it’s a telepathic link between them all. But that’s an old team. They know what to do, they know who’s doing what. They’re not afraid to ask each other questions. Get a new team, and somebody new on the team. Is he going to squeak and say something to someone who’s been doing it for five years? Probably not.

What do you think of the parallel between your creation of D&D through modification and redesigning of older game ideas and the modern day phenomenon of the game Mod?

Well, on the one hand, more power to them. But on the other, they better realize that changing a game is not the same as creating a game. It’s a lot harder to come up with the original idea than it is to modify something that’s already out there. That was one of the things that got me excited about Neverwinter Nights. People are much more excited about changing games than being just players.

What do you think of MMPOG’s?

Well, at one time my entire family; my son-in-law, daughter, we were all playing Everquest. So obviously we’ve tried it out. There were some limitations in Everquest when you were trying to cooperate as a group. Then we played Dark Age of Camelot, and that was better. It’s getting better. When people can actually interact with each other and can be identified as participants, not just as an anonymous guy with a credit card, it makes it fun.

*********************

Reposted by Havard]]> <![CDATA[[Necromancer Repost] Wilderlands Level Demographics?]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1632 Sat, 23 Nov 2013 14:29:26 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1632 http://necromancergames.yuku.com/reply/ ... ply-170437

Simontmn1:

From my planned "Blackmoor in the Wilderlands" campaign:

NPCS

Elite NPCs: 5th

Veteran NPCs: 4th

Experienced NPCs: 3rd

Trained NPCs: 2nd

Novice NPCs: 1st

Duke Uther Blackmoor: Alryan Fighter-4, N (as DMG)

Duchess Hildegard Blackmoor: Alryan f Aristocrat-3, N, AC 10, WI+1 CH+2, hp 17

Lady Tasmina: Alryan Aristocrat-2, NG, AC 11, DE+1 CH+2, hp 13

The Elven Gate Keeper: elf Cleric-5, LN (as DMG)

The Curmesti, 6 Elven Wardens: Cleric-2, LN (as DMG)

Duke's Knights

12 Knights (all as DMG)

1 Elite Knight, the Duke Champion, Armgrin: Fighter-5

2 Veteran Knights: Fighter-4

3 Experienced Knights: Fighter-3

2 Trained Knights: Fighter-2

4 Squires: Fighter-1

55 Men-At-Arms: Half-Plate AC 17 spd 20', STR+1 CON+1, halberd or light cross-bow.

Feats: (1,1): Power Attack, Cleave (3) Weapon Focus-Halberd

15 Veterans (5 Sergeants & 10 Corporals): Warrior-4, hp 22, STR+2, halberd WF ATT+7/d10+3, 4 pt PA: ATT+3/d10+11

20 Experienced Men-At-Arms: Warrior-3, hp 16, ST+1, halberd WF ATT+5/d10+1,

3 pt PA: ATT +2/d10+7

20 Trained Men-At-Arms: Warrior-2, hp 11, ST+1, halberd ATT+3/d10+1,

2 pt PA: ATT+1/d10+5

Servants: ca 60

Veteran Experts 4 WI+2 hp 14

Experienced Experts 3 WI+1 hp 10

Trained Experts 2 WI+1 hp 7

Veteran Commoners 4 hp 10

Experienced Commoners 3 hp 7

Trained Commoners 2 hp 5



********************************]]> http://necromancergames.yuku.com/reply/ ... ply-170437

Simontmn1:

From my planned "Blackmoor in the Wilderlands" campaign:

NPCS

Elite NPCs: 5th

Veteran NPCs: 4th

Experienced NPCs: 3rd

Trained NPCs: 2nd

Novice NPCs: 1st

Duke Uther Blackmoor: Alryan Fighter-4, N (as DMG)

Duchess Hildegard Blackmoor: Alryan f Aristocrat-3, N, AC 10, WI+1 CH+2, hp 17

Lady Tasmina: Alryan Aristocrat-2, NG, AC 11, DE+1 CH+2, hp 13

The Elven Gate Keeper: elf Cleric-5, LN (as DMG)

The Curmesti, 6 Elven Wardens: Cleric-2, LN (as DMG)

Duke's Knights

12 Knights (all as DMG)

1 Elite Knight, the Duke Champion, Armgrin: Fighter-5

2 Veteran Knights: Fighter-4

3 Experienced Knights: Fighter-3

2 Trained Knights: Fighter-2

4 Squires: Fighter-1

55 Men-At-Arms: Half-Plate AC 17 spd 20', STR+1 CON+1, halberd or light cross-bow.

Feats: (1,1): Power Attack, Cleave (3) Weapon Focus-Halberd

15 Veterans (5 Sergeants & 10 Corporals): Warrior-4, hp 22, STR+2, halberd WF ATT+7/d10+3, 4 pt PA: ATT+3/d10+11

20 Experienced Men-At-Arms: Warrior-3, hp 16, ST+1, halberd WF ATT+5/d10+1,

3 pt PA: ATT +2/d10+7

20 Trained Men-At-Arms: Warrior-2, hp 11, ST+1, halberd ATT+3/d10+1,

2 pt PA: ATT+1/d10+5

Servants: ca 60

Veteran Experts 4 WI+2 hp 14

Experienced Experts 3 WI+1 hp 10

Trained Experts 2 WI+1 hp 7

Veteran Commoners 4 hp 10

Experienced Commoners 3 hp 7

Trained Commoners 2 hp 5



********************************]]> <![CDATA[[Necromancer Repost] No Blackmoor Discussion? (Aug 2009)]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1631 Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:51:27 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1631 http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... Discussion

[Although the thread does not specify it, it seems that the discussion is about the 4E Blackmoor Sourcebook]'

JoeGKushner:

'm reading it.

Art ranges from m'eh to awesome.

Some new classes in it. I'll go into those latter.

Interior map appears to be the same from 3e but only on one page. This makes it hard to read to me. Very busy and the small black and white charcoal like drawing ain't helping.

Dragonborn, Tielflings, and Eladrin introduced kinda in a "yeah, just discovered... yeah, that's the ticket."

Very thick book.

Some old stuff I still don't like. Egg of Coot. Ugh. Hate that name. Hate it.

Some classic stuff though. Just trying to figure out how much I'll be able to use.
*****************************************'

Treebore:
I have original Blackmoor and 3E Blackmoor, saw no reason to pick up yet another version of it.

********************************

Davrion24
:Same here
*****************************
JoeGKushner:
Lots of 4e goodness in it.

I like how Dragonborn, Tielflings and Eladrin weren't smashed into it. More of a 'discovery' process. I wish FR had went that route.

*********************************

Philotomy Jurament:
Same here, except I have Supplement II and First Fantasy Campaign, but not 3E Blackmoor.

******************************************

Grodog:
Based on what I've seen of the 3.x Blackmoor, you're not missing anything PJ: I haven't, however, read Harley Stroh's _City of the Gods_ or _Temple of the Frog_ yet, and I'm hopeful that they'll be up to Harley's usual work.

grodog
----
Allan Grohe
Editor and Project Manager, Black Blade Publishing

grodog@gmail.com
www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/
www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html for my Greyhawk site
********************************************************

Plaag:
I loved City of the Gods. Temple of the Frog was great too, but I think City of the Gods is the best 3.x Blackmoor product. As for the other stuff, eh, not the greatest, though to be fair I have not read Clock and Steam yet.

ShaneG.
*******************************************

Snoring rock:
I picked up al of them in 3.5 at GenCon for just 5 bucks a piece. Could not pass that up.

*************************************

Sen the Collector:
I have most of the 3.5 Blackmoor stuff (I pretty much finished my collection at GenCon). What I've read I've enjoyed, but I'm really put off by the layout. I don't mind the minimal black and white art, but I hate the greyish background used for the pages.

I think it's pretty cool that wizard-warriors are "core" in Blackmoor via a new base class. There's plenty of detail to be found as well... but oh how I hate the layout of the books.
**********************************************'

-Havard]]> http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... Discussion

[Although the thread does not specify it, it seems that the discussion is about the 4E Blackmoor Sourcebook]'

JoeGKushner:

'm reading it.

Art ranges from m'eh to awesome.

Some new classes in it. I'll go into those latter.

Interior map appears to be the same from 3e but only on one page. This makes it hard to read to me. Very busy and the small black and white charcoal like drawing ain't helping.

Dragonborn, Tielflings, and Eladrin introduced kinda in a "yeah, just discovered... yeah, that's the ticket."

Very thick book.

Some old stuff I still don't like. Egg of Coot. Ugh. Hate that name. Hate it.

Some classic stuff though. Just trying to figure out how much I'll be able to use.
*****************************************'

Treebore:
I have original Blackmoor and 3E Blackmoor, saw no reason to pick up yet another version of it.

********************************

Davrion24
:Same here
*****************************
JoeGKushner:
Lots of 4e goodness in it.

I like how Dragonborn, Tielflings and Eladrin weren't smashed into it. More of a 'discovery' process. I wish FR had went that route.

*********************************

Philotomy Jurament:
Same here, except I have Supplement II and First Fantasy Campaign, but not 3E Blackmoor.

******************************************

Grodog:
Based on what I've seen of the 3.x Blackmoor, you're not missing anything PJ: I haven't, however, read Harley Stroh's _City of the Gods_ or _Temple of the Frog_ yet, and I'm hopeful that they'll be up to Harley's usual work.

grodog
----
Allan Grohe
Editor and Project Manager, Black Blade Publishing

grodog@gmail.com
www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/
www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html for my Greyhawk site
********************************************************

Plaag:
I loved City of the Gods. Temple of the Frog was great too, but I think City of the Gods is the best 3.x Blackmoor product. As for the other stuff, eh, not the greatest, though to be fair I have not read Clock and Steam yet.

ShaneG.
*******************************************

Snoring rock:
I picked up al of them in 3.5 at GenCon for just 5 bucks a piece. Could not pass that up.

*************************************

Sen the Collector:
I have most of the 3.5 Blackmoor stuff (I pretty much finished my collection at GenCon). What I've read I've enjoyed, but I'm really put off by the layout. I don't mind the minimal black and white art, but I hate the greyish background used for the pages.

I think it's pretty cool that wizard-warriors are "core" in Blackmoor via a new base class. There's plenty of detail to be found as well... but oh how I hate the layout of the books.
**********************************************'

-Havard]]> <![CDATA[[Necromancer Repost] First Fantasy Campaign Status(Apr 2009)]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1629 Sat, 23 Nov 2013 09:36:05 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1629 http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... ign-Status

James Mishler:
I finally tracked down what was up with First Fantasy Campaign on Judges Guild's end:

Per Bob Bledsaw II, before his death his father returned the rights Judges Guild held in First Fantasy Campaign back to Dave Arneson. Dave was working on developing a new, revised edition of First Fantasy Campaign using materials sent to him from the Bledsaws; this apparently was in addition to work on the new 4th Edition Blackmoor. Bob is not sure where things stood with the Revised FFC project at the time of Dave's passing.

"Dave sent me a very nice signed copy of the original FFC for my collection," Bob said. "In it he wrote, 'The greatest treasure may not be the best guarded.' It means even more to me now."

So any future FFC PDF or project would be in the hands of Dave's family now.

*******************************

Reposted by Havard]]> http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... ign-Status

James Mishler:
I finally tracked down what was up with First Fantasy Campaign on Judges Guild's end:

Per Bob Bledsaw II, before his death his father returned the rights Judges Guild held in First Fantasy Campaign back to Dave Arneson. Dave was working on developing a new, revised edition of First Fantasy Campaign using materials sent to him from the Bledsaws; this apparently was in addition to work on the new 4th Edition Blackmoor. Bob is not sure where things stood with the Revised FFC project at the time of Dave's passing.

"Dave sent me a very nice signed copy of the original FFC for my collection," Bob said. "In it he wrote, 'The greatest treasure may not be the best guarded.' It means even more to me now."

So any future FFC PDF or project would be in the hands of Dave's family now.

*******************************

Reposted by Havard]]> <![CDATA[[Necromancer Repost] Blackmoor (Jan-Jul 2007)]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1628 Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:41:33 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1628 http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... oor?page=1

mtbdm:

Does anyone have a map of how the Wilderlands links up with Blackmoor? I know many have joined the two worlds into a single setting at the "Valley of the Ancients" which appears on both maps. Does anyone have an image file of what the resulting continent would look like?

I'd also be interested in any maps showing Karak or the Demon Empires.

***********************

magoo:
I remember seeing that map linked on this board. Can't remember who posted it and where it is...

*******************

leadjunkie:
Yeah, I have the same recollection. Too bad the search feature on these boards is so terrible.

***************
Mtbdm:
I tried searching online but couldn't find any current links. I know they link up at the Valley of the ancients, but was looking for a more specific "Hex X is right above..." sort of thing OR a picture.
*******************

JamesMishler:
Unfortunately, they do not quite match up perfectly.

The Blackmoor map from First Fantasy Campaign is at 10-miles per hex, so it is actually four times the size of a regular Wilderlands campaign map. The south-western quadrant of the Blackmoor map is the same size as the map of the Valley of the Ancients (new map #3), which it more or less stands above. However, there is at least a one to three hex "buffer" between the two maps, as they do not quite match up/overlap as the other Wilderlands maps do. That's something you have to figure our on your own...

The problem comes in, of course, if you use the later TSR "DA-series" version of Blackmoor, which takes the exact same map as used in First Fantasy Campaign and converts it to 24 miles per hex, later adding on a whole new section of southern Blackmoor/northern Thonia in the City of the Gods adventure module... none of these maps are compatible with the Wilderlands maps, so only the First Fantasy Campaign map really fits with the Wilderlands.

*********************************

Robsconley:
The problem is that First Fantasy Campaign map is 10 mile per hex and Wilderlands is 5 miles per hex. So it requires a fair amount of work to make a combined map.

FFC map is equal to four wilderland maps.

Rob Conley
********************

Blair Goatsblood:
The maps from the DA series ine up nicely with the widerlands map, IMO, if you have them to the east of the WL. Blackmoor is NE if the Valey of the Ancients. The city of the gods maps is to the east of the Valley of the Ancients.

**********************

lkj:
A guy on the Blackmoor boards did his own conceptualization based on various sources.

The map is here:

[Image: 11011202404_c8a132468e_z.jpg]

There's a key here:

boards1.wizards.com/showt...st11120738

And a discussion about it here:

http://www.dablackmoor.com/MMRPG...opic&t=540

Hope that helps.

AD

*******************
Havard:

Thanks for pointing me this way lkj!

I have made an expanded version of the map to include the entire Wilderlands Setting:
[Image: 11011118445_a8044aecd9_z.jpg]


Although I own the PG and the boxed set, I am hardly an expert on the WL and would love to get input on how to improve this map to do each setting justice.

Havard]]> http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... oor?page=1

mtbdm:

Does anyone have a map of how the Wilderlands links up with Blackmoor? I know many have joined the two worlds into a single setting at the "Valley of the Ancients" which appears on both maps. Does anyone have an image file of what the resulting continent would look like?

I'd also be interested in any maps showing Karak or the Demon Empires.

***********************

magoo:
I remember seeing that map linked on this board. Can't remember who posted it and where it is...

*******************

leadjunkie:
Yeah, I have the same recollection. Too bad the search feature on these boards is so terrible.

***************
Mtbdm:
I tried searching online but couldn't find any current links. I know they link up at the Valley of the ancients, but was looking for a more specific "Hex X is right above..." sort of thing OR a picture.
*******************

JamesMishler:
Unfortunately, they do not quite match up perfectly.

The Blackmoor map from First Fantasy Campaign is at 10-miles per hex, so it is actually four times the size of a regular Wilderlands campaign map. The south-western quadrant of the Blackmoor map is the same size as the map of the Valley of the Ancients (new map #3), which it more or less stands above. However, there is at least a one to three hex "buffer" between the two maps, as they do not quite match up/overlap as the other Wilderlands maps do. That's something you have to figure our on your own...

The problem comes in, of course, if you use the later TSR "DA-series" version of Blackmoor, which takes the exact same map as used in First Fantasy Campaign and converts it to 24 miles per hex, later adding on a whole new section of southern Blackmoor/northern Thonia in the City of the Gods adventure module... none of these maps are compatible with the Wilderlands maps, so only the First Fantasy Campaign map really fits with the Wilderlands.

*********************************

Robsconley:
The problem is that First Fantasy Campaign map is 10 mile per hex and Wilderlands is 5 miles per hex. So it requires a fair amount of work to make a combined map.

FFC map is equal to four wilderland maps.

Rob Conley
********************

Blair Goatsblood:
The maps from the DA series ine up nicely with the widerlands map, IMO, if you have them to the east of the WL. Blackmoor is NE if the Valey of the Ancients. The city of the gods maps is to the east of the Valley of the Ancients.

**********************

lkj:
A guy on the Blackmoor boards did his own conceptualization based on various sources.

The map is here:

[Image: 11011202404_c8a132468e_z.jpg]

There's a key here:

boards1.wizards.com/showt...st11120738

And a discussion about it here:

http://www.dablackmoor.com/MMRPG...opic&t=540

Hope that helps.

AD

*******************
Havard:

Thanks for pointing me this way lkj!

I have made an expanded version of the map to include the entire Wilderlands Setting:
[Image: 11011118445_a8044aecd9_z.jpg]


Although I own the PG and the boxed set, I am hardly an expert on the WL and would love to get input on how to improve this map to do each setting justice.

Havard]]> <![CDATA[[Necromancer Repost] Dave Arneson passes away (April 2009)]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1626 Sat, 23 Nov 2013 05:02:22 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1626 http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... way?page=1

Mithriltooth:

Sad
Saw this at a gaming news site.... He will be missed.

Dungeons & Dragons co-creator Dave Arneson passed away at the age of 61 shortly after 11:00 pm CDT on Tuesday, April 7th, just 13 months after the death of Gary Gygax. Arneson suffered a stroke in 2002, but the cause of death is not mentioned in the announcement (thanks IGN). Here's word on the arrangements:

Cards and letters can continue to be sent:
Dave Arneson
1043 Grand Avenue
Box #257
St. Paul, MN
55105

Visitation will be on April 20th
Time: yet to be determined
Address:
Bradshaw Funeral Home
687 Snelling Avenue South
St. Paul, MN 55105

Apologies if this was already posted, I didnt take the time to look

*************************

Snoring rock:
I saw this as well; came to post it, but looks like someone beat me to it.

There is a special place in my heart for folks like Dave Arneson. I think of all the times I have cracked a book open to checks a game referrence and seen his name in print on the cover. In the past two years we have lost three of the best imaginations in the gaming. Heck, we lost those who have done the most to create "gaming".

Best wishes to his family. Dave, you will be missed; thank you for all that you have done to inspire.

*********************

JeffB:
Very sad- we have lost all three of our "giants"- Gary, Bob, and now Dave.

Here is a link to the (legally downloadable) Blackmoor supplement for OD&D. This was avalable for free via Dave's old website (which went under a month ago for financial reasons)- The underseas creatures were Steve Marsh's work, but the majority is pure Arneson and it includes the first published D&D adventure.

Supp II

*******************

Deepcut:
Very sad indeed.

**************************

RJM:
OotS did a nice tribute.

**********************

DNDChick:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html

**********************

Stlander:
Another truly sad day for the D&D community, and the RPG community as a whole. This has really been a rough 13 months. First Gary, then Bob, and now Dave. It is often said that tragedies occur in threes. For our community, it can't get any worse than this. It's time to mourn, but it's also time to remember these men with great fondness for what they gave us, and to celebrate their lives. I thank you all, and salute you!


"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs. He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." - E. Gary Gygax (1938-2008)

Robert E. Bledsaw (1942-2008): Judges Guild Worldwide, Inc. founder and president.

David L. Arneson (1947-2009): Co-creator of Dungeons and Dragons.
****************************

KenMcKinney:
That is a nice tribute.

Yeah, it's really sad that we lost them all at once.

The really tragic thing is, none of them were that old. Dave Arneson was 62!

**************************************

Golth the northman:
RIP.

This news only confirms that I should drop some Blackmoor adventure hooks in my Wilderlands game in/around Valon.

*********************************

Orcus:
Boy, I am so sad to hear about this. What a 12-month period we've had. Bledsaw, Gygax, Arneson. Wow.

Dave, thanks to you and yours for all you have given us.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090410/ap_ ... _arneson_4

Clark

**********************

Kobold Curry Chef:
Not to mention Erick Wujcik and N. Robin Crossby.

************************'

Ifuritasfan:
Good god, Dave's dead too.

Dave, you made an impact on so many people in such a short time. It's a shame that you had to leave us, we who have benefited from your genius and hard work so much over the years.

And with the passing of so many greats in the RPG community in such a short period, I can't help but keenly feel the void that your passing has left behind.

It really saddens me that the gaming community has lost yet another irreplaceable luminary.

*******************************

PrismaticDM
Damn. What a rough year for losses in the gaming world. We'll miss you, Dave! As long as we keep playing games the "founding fathers'" spirits will live on.

***********************************

Havard:
Well said PDM!
Rest in Peace Dave.

*********************

Serelan:
Thank you, Dave, for having a dream and living it -- I'll be playing Temple of the Frog for many a day for you.

****************************

-Havard]]> http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... way?page=1

Mithriltooth:

Sad
Saw this at a gaming news site.... He will be missed.

Dungeons & Dragons co-creator Dave Arneson passed away at the age of 61 shortly after 11:00 pm CDT on Tuesday, April 7th, just 13 months after the death of Gary Gygax. Arneson suffered a stroke in 2002, but the cause of death is not mentioned in the announcement (thanks IGN). Here's word on the arrangements:

Cards and letters can continue to be sent:
Dave Arneson
1043 Grand Avenue
Box #257
St. Paul, MN
55105

Visitation will be on April 20th
Time: yet to be determined
Address:
Bradshaw Funeral Home
687 Snelling Avenue South
St. Paul, MN 55105

Apologies if this was already posted, I didnt take the time to look

*************************

Snoring rock:
I saw this as well; came to post it, but looks like someone beat me to it.

There is a special place in my heart for folks like Dave Arneson. I think of all the times I have cracked a book open to checks a game referrence and seen his name in print on the cover. In the past two years we have lost three of the best imaginations in the gaming. Heck, we lost those who have done the most to create "gaming".

Best wishes to his family. Dave, you will be missed; thank you for all that you have done to inspire.

*********************

JeffB:
Very sad- we have lost all three of our "giants"- Gary, Bob, and now Dave.

Here is a link to the (legally downloadable) Blackmoor supplement for OD&D. This was avalable for free via Dave's old website (which went under a month ago for financial reasons)- The underseas creatures were Steve Marsh's work, but the majority is pure Arneson and it includes the first published D&D adventure.

Supp II

*******************

Deepcut:
Very sad indeed.

**************************

RJM:
OotS did a nice tribute.

**********************

DNDChick:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html

**********************

Stlander:
Another truly sad day for the D&D community, and the RPG community as a whole. This has really been a rough 13 months. First Gary, then Bob, and now Dave. It is often said that tragedies occur in threes. For our community, it can't get any worse than this. It's time to mourn, but it's also time to remember these men with great fondness for what they gave us, and to celebrate their lives. I thank you all, and salute you!


"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs. He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." - E. Gary Gygax (1938-2008)

Robert E. Bledsaw (1942-2008): Judges Guild Worldwide, Inc. founder and president.

David L. Arneson (1947-2009): Co-creator of Dungeons and Dragons.
****************************

KenMcKinney:
That is a nice tribute.

Yeah, it's really sad that we lost them all at once.

The really tragic thing is, none of them were that old. Dave Arneson was 62!

**************************************

Golth the northman:
RIP.

This news only confirms that I should drop some Blackmoor adventure hooks in my Wilderlands game in/around Valon.

*********************************

Orcus:
Boy, I am so sad to hear about this. What a 12-month period we've had. Bledsaw, Gygax, Arneson. Wow.

Dave, thanks to you and yours for all you have given us.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090410/ap_ ... _arneson_4

Clark

**********************

Kobold Curry Chef:
Not to mention Erick Wujcik and N. Robin Crossby.

************************'

Ifuritasfan:
Good god, Dave's dead too.

Dave, you made an impact on so many people in such a short time. It's a shame that you had to leave us, we who have benefited from your genius and hard work so much over the years.

And with the passing of so many greats in the RPG community in such a short period, I can't help but keenly feel the void that your passing has left behind.

It really saddens me that the gaming community has lost yet another irreplaceable luminary.

*******************************

PrismaticDM
Damn. What a rough year for losses in the gaming world. We'll miss you, Dave! As long as we keep playing games the "founding fathers'" spirits will live on.

***********************************

Havard:
Well said PDM!
Rest in Peace Dave.

*********************

Serelan:
Thank you, Dave, for having a dream and living it -- I'll be playing Temple of the Frog for many a day for you.

****************************

-Havard]]> <![CDATA[[Necromancer Repost] What to use for Valon (March 2008)]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1625 Sat, 23 Nov 2013 04:41:39 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1625 http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/9283
Snoring rock:
Ok, all of you are full of great ideas.....so what is a good city already packaged and ready to go, preferably 3.5E, but will convert, to use for Valon, city of the Ice Wizards? Leadjunkie I am counting on you here.

Thanks.....Snoring Rock

***********************

Leadjunkie:
Putting me on the spot huh? I've actually given this one some thought myself. I got nothing. Valon is a unique setting. I can't say that I have run across anything that would fit the bill. It would be a cool city. Properly done it could probably sell as a stand alone product independent of the Wilderlands.

*************************************

James Mishler:
Glantri City is indeed an excellent substitution for Valon, from the nature of the city structure (including the canals) to the nature of the culture and society. The Council of Princes works very well for the lawful-oriented city; however, it would be in balance with the Avalonian King, definitely more of a Parliament rather than a ruling council (though you ould change that, too). You'd need to make a fair number of changes with some of the alignments of members of the noble houses; I'd shift most of them one step closer to Lawful Good (shift the Law-Chaos axis first, then the Good-Evil).

You'd also need to leech out some of the multi-culturalism of the city, if you want it to be closer to the Wilderlands version; there are a LOT of vastly different cultures in Glantri, and most of Valon "by-the-book" is Avalonian (read: blue-skinned Arthurian Chivalric where Merlin had ruled, with a dash of Old Norse. Oh, and blue-skinned with platinum hair). If you want a lot of magic AND multi-culturalism, that's found in Tula, the City of Mages, on the other side of the Wilderlands.

You could lose the emnity toward dwarves and halfling thing, or keep it as a weird thing of the Avalonians.. that would confuse the hell out of players, the Avalonians being "good and lawful folk" who happen to enjoy vivisection of dwarves and halflings as a hobby...

The ideals about magic ruling, though, are very similar, though the Avalonians still respect the gods (clerics just aren't as high in society as wizards, as compared to Glantri, where clerics and religions are outlawed). Perhaps there are only certain gods allowed, and all others are heretical, with the heretical priests being burnt at the stake (wouldn't want to poison the holy waters of Amala with their flesh, would you now?)

If you want to use the various Noble Houses of Glantri, here are some suggestions:

House of Crowngard: You can keep the otherwordly origins of this house, or you can go with them being founded by Tharbrians who have intermarried with the Avalonians. They can pretty much remain the same either way.

House of Igorov: This house was founded by Tarshians who fled the fall of that city long centuries ago; they are intermarried with Avalonians, but still maintain pale blue skin and black-blue hair, as well as an unhealthy interest in the Black Arts.

House of Linden: This house works just fine as an Avalonian noble house; the names are Dutch-based, but work fine. The connection to Old Alphatia is instead a connection to the Elemental Plane of Fire, as opposed to the more common connection to the Elemental Plane of Water as is found among the Avalonians.

House of Ritterberg: These guys work just great, too. They are a mix of native Avalonians and exiled Alryans.

House of Silverston: Avalonians, pure and simple, but with the elemental relationship changed from Air to Water. Name changes will need to be made; or perhaps you can keep the Aendyrs as-is with Air, and create several others with the more natural Avalonian relationship with Water.

House of Singhabad: These guys could not make a more perfect Exiled House of Karakhans if Bruce had planned it that way...

House of Sirecchia: Either change this one greatly, or make it a combined Antillian/Alryan/Avalonian house. Antillians are sorta/kinda Italians, so that would work...

House of Sylaire: Keep the otherworldly origins (which, as with Crowngard, works fine in the Wilderlands) or make them a native and ancient Avalonian house; change the names in this case to something more classically Arthurian, rather than Renaissance French.

Clan of Alhambra: You can keep this as a clan of elves descended from a far-distant land settled in the dismal north, or change it to a clan of Alvar (Blue Elves), blue-skinned Norse-style elves. Hell, keep them as Flamenco Elves and add a new House of Alvar...

Clan of Ellerovyn: As elves, these work just fine. There are forests north of Avalon that suit them perfectly. They are High Elves, of the Wilderlands Kingdom of Alfheim (as opposed to the Mystaran Kingdom of Alfheim, very different...) In addition to dealing with forest-magic, they concentrate on teleportation and gate magic, as it is the Fairie Gates that Alfheim builds that keep the disparate lands of the kingdom together...

As for the Radiance, that fits in just fine, too. There are all sorts of reasons it could exist in the Wilderlands, including the original techno-magical source of the Mystaran version.

James Mishler
Main Man, Adventure Games Publishing
jamesagp1@gmail.com
http://adventuregamespublishing.blogspot.com/
Personal Gameblog: http://jamesmishler.blogspot.com

*******************************************************

Leadjunkie:

Snoring Rock - you convinced me. I scored a copy of the Glantri box set new in the shrink wrap on eBay for just under $15.

James - really good recommendations. Thanks for the insight. Is this from conversations with Bob or your updated take for WoHA? When you say "Arthurian Chivalric", are you referring to a Tennyson like version of the Arthurian tales or a more modern understanding of a Sub-Roman Dark Ages Arthur?

James goes on to say, "a dash of old Norse". This could explain the enmity toward Dwarves (I'd definitely drop the hafling enmity). Norse mythology lumps Dwarves and Elves (not to be confused with the Vanir of Asgard) together to include all manor of strange beings with supernatural powers. Given James' inclusion of two sub-races of Elves in the noble houses, I think I would drop this aspect all together.

*****************************

James Mishler:
Well, however you want to make it, really...

Generally, take everything you know about Arthurian romance, add in Boorman's Excalibur, a dash of T.H. White's Sword in the Stone, the Kingdom of Merilon from the Darksword Trilogy, ice and water magic in particular and all sorts of magic in general; mix well; and let stew for 4,000 years with minimal outside influence, and that's what Valon and the Avalonians are like. Core ideas:

1) Ancient, complex social class and caste system;
2) Concepts of honor and order;
3) Advancement outside caste system through chivalry and wizardry;
4) Culturally isolationist, yet individuals may believe in "personal crusades to the benighted lands;"
5) Wizard/knights in shining plate mail (think Lancelot from Excalibur, will fight a non-wizard foe with swords, wizarding foes with magic);
6) Dash of Norse = modern movie interpretations of Beowulf, but classier. The recent Beowulf movie hits the look dead on, as it is a late Dark Age/early Middle Ages style. 13th Warrior gets the feel of the setting more rightly, as it is still quite dark and ugly in the world outside. Put the warriors from 13th Warrior in the setting of the later parts of Beowulf, plus most folks know at least some magic, and it's just about right...

I've adapted the ancient, staid ice wizard elements and religion of the Boxed Set Valon to my own more savage Arthurian/Norse interpretation of the setting, to keep things more intact. I liked the ideas presented in the boxed set about ice magic and the deities, so just adapted them wholesale to my own original interpretation (which was more a Dark Age/Excalibur mix of the Arthurian mythos and Norse pantheon from the original D&DG). The idea of wizarding knights is cool; I kinda liked what David Eddings did with his Elenium series in that direction, so I have no problem with adapting it for the WoHA...

Oh, and the "Roman" influence in the area, as such, is more distinctly "Russo-Byzantine." The ancient Imperial influence in the region is Auld Tarshian, which is a mere shadow of the utterly ancient and (originally) inhuman Empire of Torsh from the Far East... in the WoHA, the people of Tarsh are Russo-Slavic in culture.

And I should add that the "Norse" influence is from the barbaric Valonar peoples, the cousins of the Avalonians. The three tribes of the Valonar (Markka, Norkka, and Sverkka) are the cousins of the Avalonians and Skandiks equally; it was a mixed tribe of Valonar exiles that undertook the original colonization of Altania under Skandi Greywulf in the late 22nd century...

James goes on to say, "a dash of old Norse". This could explain the enmity toward Dwarves (I'd definitely drop the hafling enmity). Norse mythology lumps Dwarves and Elves (not to be confused with the Vanir of Asgard) together to include all manor of strange beings with supernatural powers. Given James' inclusion of two sub-races of Elves in the noble houses, I think I would drop this aspect all together.
The emnities are from the Glantri set, and can be kept or dumped depending on the needs of the campaign... and it is all predicated on using Glantri as Valon, as no such thing exists in the Valon of the WoHA...

BUT again, I cannot emphasize enough, the Wilderlands is always and in every way what each individual judge makes of it!

******************************

Snoring Rock:
That was a mouth-full. This is good stuff. I copeid every word an put it in my note book. I have already made some changes over the weekend to Glantri to make it more Avalonian. I agree, the principalities can be adapted to fit the traditional Wilderlands Valon, which is the flavor I am after. I like the magical/Norse mixture you have suggested. I am scanning the book today, but in my forst quick pass, I find very few alliances or tribute to Valon. They really are isolationist. I can set up a few out-lying villages as homes or manner-homes of leadership in these royal houses to adapt Galantri. This was an excellent choice.

********************

James Mishler:
One thing you can do, if you want more lands for the Avalonians, is draw up your own map to the north of Valon. The Avalonians control extensive territories north of Valon, the lands known as Valonaria. An excerpt from the World of the Wilderlands article in AGJ #1:

"Immediately to the north of the Wilderlands and south of the Great Escarpment is Valonaria, the domain of the Avalonians and their savage Valonar cousins. The great northern city-states of Val-Torsh, Valfodthr, Valamala, Valoria, and Valmidthra, each the equal of Valon itself, are known only in legend to the southern peoples. The savage lands between the fiefdoms of the Avalonian city-states are home to various tribes of semi-nomadic Valonar, as is the Lower Ukulan Sea below Sûrya Falls. The Ice Temple of Aram Kor sits atop a glacier in the mountains of a vast island between the eastern and western arms of the falls."

These are their homelands, including several more cities, a good number of towns, and plenty of hamlets, castles, and citadels. One of the reasons the Avalonians were never expansionist to the south is that they didn't need to be; they essentially ruled all the fertile lands between the Uther Pentwegern Sea and the Great Escarpment, south of the Alvar Kingdoms, west of Tarsh, and east of Land of Beasts. As mentioned, though, the lands in-between are home to savage barbarians, Valonar and otherwise, so in their homelands the Avalonians are much like the Alryans of the Roglaras; they rule the cities and towns, small "Points of Light" amidst a howling wilderness. Each of the aforementioned cities is ruled by a Prince (never a son of the King, nor even of the same royal clan, by ancient laws to keep a balance between the houses)...

Anyhoo... there will be a map of Valonaria soon enough. The Continental Map is first up, then a map of Near Karak; thereafter the map of Valonaria, the Infinite Desert, or the Demon Empire, I've not yet decided...


*******************************

Snoring rock:
James....you are scaring me. I just got back on here to ask what was north of Valon and to see what you thought of making small city states out of these very clannish principalities. The Wilderlands do not lend themselves to large controlled areas like Glantri, but both worj well with several points of light north of Valon. Since I happen to already be working on remapping Blackmoor and the Hak to the west, they would connect at the great glacier. This is good stuff.....again I am on a roll here. Thank you for all the awsome tidbits. Oh, hurry up and get those maps done!

************'
Lead Junkie:
Snoring Rock - If you aren't subscribing to James WoHA Journal, you should be. The first issue was great. I'm really looking forward to the second one.

* Not so subtle nudge to James*
****************************

Snoring rock:

Ice Elves
I see that the population of elves is nat all thet great in the Wilderlands. I am thinking, since they are more prevelent in Blackmoor, perhaps to the north there are more of them. So, for my Great Glacier map, north of Valon, I have mountains covered by glacier.....so anyone have any idea where to find some stats on some d20 blue elves?

***********************

James Mishler:
Ummm... in the Player's Guide to the Wilderlands? Page 24, "Northern Elves" entry, aka "Blue Elves" or "Alvar." One thing they forgot to include, though, was the ice/cold resistance and suseptibility to fire/heat... add:

Resistance to Ice and Cold (Ex): Alvar ignore the first 5 points of damage dealt to them by any ice or cold-based attacks.

and

Susceptibility to Fire and Heat (Ex): Alvar suffer a -2 penalty to saves against fire or heat effects.

******************************

Snoring rock:
ames, what I meant was that the population is not that large and that they do not controll or "haunt" so to speak, a large swath of territory. I have the Players Guide and I am going down stairs to get it now. I finished my Great Glacier map today (expert autocad user)....you would be proud. It even connects to my Plains of Hak from the "re-drawn" Blackmoor map.....as you suggested. Thank you for all of your cool advice, ideas, and knowledge on the best setting ever published!


**************************

James Mishler:
The continental map is designed under the assumption that the Wilderlands region maps remain at their 5-mile-per-hex scale.

Each regional map is 170 miles north-south and 230 miles east-west (the Wilderlands book incorrectly states 260 miles eas-west).

Each district of 3 maps east-west and 6 maps north-south is thus ~690 miles east-west and ~1,020 miles north-south.

The Rhadamanthia Continental Map is five districts east-west and three districts north-south, for a total area of ~3,450 miles east-west by ~3,060 miles north-south. The area covered is huge, about equal to Europe, Africa north of the central Sahara, the western Middle East, and the western portion of Russia... Iceland in the northwest and Canary Islands in the southwest, to the Ural Mountains in the northeast and southern Arabia in the southeast.

*********************************

Snoring rock:

There were a few things I threw out, but I kept quite a lot too. The Great Glacier does not boast a huge population. So I took it principality by principality, and instead of using the populations listed, I devided them by 10. This gave me small villiages, run by nobility from Valon. I used James Mishlers idea for the races in the begining of this thread. I have a huge glaciated mountain range north of the villages and trading posts. The culture from west to east is Slavic changing to a slight Germanic thrust to Escimoes to the east, which connects with the Hak from Blackmoor, which is Native American. It fits nicely. The French influenced names and places from Glantri lend themselves well to the large amount of hunters and trappers along the glacial rim. I love the vampiric families of Rymskigrad and the Werewolves of Loupmont. It just adds to the Wilderlands flavor. Enjoy it this weekend, and if you get any great ideas that are worth sharing.....please do. I thre out the map and made my own of course.

Did you ever get a chance to mail those elves? If you want, I can run a copy of my map and send you one if you want it for ideas. I expect your is better than mine, but you just never know.

************

Leadjunkie:

Frostburn vs. Frost & Fur - environment books for a Valon campaign

Any Judge running an arctic/sub-arctic campaign (or any cold environment for that matter) would be well served to have a copy of WotC's Frostburn or Monkey God Enterprises' Frost & Fur; The Explorer's Guide to the Frozen Lands. It has been mentioned on these boards that Frost & Fur is the better of the two. I don't disagree. If I could only have one, that would be my choice as well. I like both for different reasons and suggest having both if it is in your budget.

Here is a brief compare and contrast.

Frostburn is 224 pages with typical WotC color art and borders. Just a personal issue, but I hate the parchment colored page that starts every chapter, making it difficult for these aging eyes to read. Frost & Fur is 237 pages with black and white art only.

Frostburn's first chapter deals with the Frostfell (WotC's name for the arctic lands). It covers different environments found in the arctic, special hazards, supernatural occurrences, and a brief covering of terrain types found in the arctic (23 pgs). Frost & Fur covers similar topics with its focus being on terrain and environmental hazards (22 pgs).

The second chapter of Frostburn covers Races, Classes and Feats. The racial variants are minor tweaks on the core races with the introduction of Neanderthals and Uldras (7 pgs). A couple of pages cover existing classes. Arctic feats (but not skills) take up the remainder of the chapter (5 pgs). The third chapter is devoted to ten prestige classes; the bane of 3.5 to my mind (21 pgs). Frost & Fur covers these topics in three chapters, declining to add prestige classes with the statement that they are campaign specific and the Judge should determine which core prestige classes are appropriate. Races are not given short shrift here (11 pgs). Most of the core races are provided with Slavic, Nordic, Eskimo and Ice Age variants. Some board members have expressed distaste for historical analogs to their fantasy settings. Nevertheless, there are interesting insights to be gained here. One can borrow ideas without having a fantastic Slavic race. Classes, including NPC classes (not covered by WotC) are given some options (5 pgs). Much more attention is paid to skills and feats in Frost & Fur The application of skills in the arctic along with new skills is covered, which is glaringly missing from Frostburn (4 pgs). A greater selection of environment related feats is provided (8 pgs). Curiously, Frost & Fur tags on a page of modifiers to the schools of magic and a new ice domain to this chapter.

Frostburn's 4th chapter covers new equipment (6 pgs). Frost & Fur's chapter has a much greater selection of equipment, especially weapons and transportation (14 pgs). Oddly, Frost & Fur tacked on a page of information about trade commodities in the classes' chapter.

Magic of the Frostfell is covered in chapter 5 of Frostburn. New spells, a cold domain and a page each devoted to psionics and magic items (26 pgs). Frost & Fur breaks this up into two chapters; spells (24 pgs) and magic items (8pgs).

Monsters can be found in chapter 6 of Frostburn. About 50 monsters are covered (53 pgs). Frost & Fur has much more with 85 creatures and about 15 templates (51 pgs).

The remainder of the books is where they greatly diverge.

Frostburn's final chapter provides two adventure sites. Delzomen's Iceforge (EL5) provides a nice two level mini dungeon that introduces many of the features and creatures introduced in the book (11 pgs). Icerazer: The Ice Berg City is a small city, population 5,800 consisting of snow goblins 25%, tieflings 20%, humans 17%, orc 6% and uldra 6%. A decent map and a good selection of NPCs with full stats are provided. Eleven major encounter areas are described with a three level map of the palace (21 pgs).

I could easily see Icerazer's population being changed, making Icerazer Palace home to an Avalonian mages school. What better way to have a secret school than a floating city in the Uther Pentwegern Sea. No doubt the powerful mages control the iceberg's movement.

Finally, there is a very expansive appendix of cold weather terrain specific encounter charts (26 pages).

Frost and Fur closes with four chapters covering cultures, starting with the Norse (29 pgs). The section on gods is of little use if you have Deities & Demigods. Each god is given a very brief description, alignment, domains, weapon and rank within the pantheon. Inexplicably Odin is not listed. Eskimo (11 pgs), Slavic (17 pgs) and Ice Age (6 pgs) round out the cultures.

**********************************

Snoring rock:

I have copied/pasted and printed this post of yours Lead. Your observations are valued. I am going to get a copy of Frost and Fur. I see that it is usually listed a t a slightly higher price than Frostburn. I suspsect circulation numbers and content are the reasoning. If a copy of Frostburn happen my way at the right price then I will snatch that up as well.

I really want this floating iceberg as a school. It is just too fantastic to pass up. Thanks for all the insights.



Hey Lead, I received my Frost and Fur. Excellent book. This thing is jam-packed with cold goodness. I like the white pages too. There is more content, less fluff. I appreciate your review of the book and the comparisons between this and Frostburn. This will help a great deal with my Avalonian area to the north.


*****************************


-Havard]]> http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/9283
Snoring rock:
Ok, all of you are full of great ideas.....so what is a good city already packaged and ready to go, preferably 3.5E, but will convert, to use for Valon, city of the Ice Wizards? Leadjunkie I am counting on you here.

Thanks.....Snoring Rock

***********************

Leadjunkie:
Putting me on the spot huh? I've actually given this one some thought myself. I got nothing. Valon is a unique setting. I can't say that I have run across anything that would fit the bill. It would be a cool city. Properly done it could probably sell as a stand alone product independent of the Wilderlands.

*************************************

James Mishler:
Glantri City is indeed an excellent substitution for Valon, from the nature of the city structure (including the canals) to the nature of the culture and society. The Council of Princes works very well for the lawful-oriented city; however, it would be in balance with the Avalonian King, definitely more of a Parliament rather than a ruling council (though you ould change that, too). You'd need to make a fair number of changes with some of the alignments of members of the noble houses; I'd shift most of them one step closer to Lawful Good (shift the Law-Chaos axis first, then the Good-Evil).

You'd also need to leech out some of the multi-culturalism of the city, if you want it to be closer to the Wilderlands version; there are a LOT of vastly different cultures in Glantri, and most of Valon "by-the-book" is Avalonian (read: blue-skinned Arthurian Chivalric where Merlin had ruled, with a dash of Old Norse. Oh, and blue-skinned with platinum hair). If you want a lot of magic AND multi-culturalism, that's found in Tula, the City of Mages, on the other side of the Wilderlands.

You could lose the emnity toward dwarves and halfling thing, or keep it as a weird thing of the Avalonians.. that would confuse the hell out of players, the Avalonians being "good and lawful folk" who happen to enjoy vivisection of dwarves and halflings as a hobby...

The ideals about magic ruling, though, are very similar, though the Avalonians still respect the gods (clerics just aren't as high in society as wizards, as compared to Glantri, where clerics and religions are outlawed). Perhaps there are only certain gods allowed, and all others are heretical, with the heretical priests being burnt at the stake (wouldn't want to poison the holy waters of Amala with their flesh, would you now?)

If you want to use the various Noble Houses of Glantri, here are some suggestions:

House of Crowngard: You can keep the otherwordly origins of this house, or you can go with them being founded by Tharbrians who have intermarried with the Avalonians. They can pretty much remain the same either way.

House of Igorov: This house was founded by Tarshians who fled the fall of that city long centuries ago; they are intermarried with Avalonians, but still maintain pale blue skin and black-blue hair, as well as an unhealthy interest in the Black Arts.

House of Linden: This house works just fine as an Avalonian noble house; the names are Dutch-based, but work fine. The connection to Old Alphatia is instead a connection to the Elemental Plane of Fire, as opposed to the more common connection to the Elemental Plane of Water as is found among the Avalonians.

House of Ritterberg: These guys work just great, too. They are a mix of native Avalonians and exiled Alryans.

House of Silverston: Avalonians, pure and simple, but with the elemental relationship changed from Air to Water. Name changes will need to be made; or perhaps you can keep the Aendyrs as-is with Air, and create several others with the more natural Avalonian relationship with Water.

House of Singhabad: These guys could not make a more perfect Exiled House of Karakhans if Bruce had planned it that way...

House of Sirecchia: Either change this one greatly, or make it a combined Antillian/Alryan/Avalonian house. Antillians are sorta/kinda Italians, so that would work...

House of Sylaire: Keep the otherworldly origins (which, as with Crowngard, works fine in the Wilderlands) or make them a native and ancient Avalonian house; change the names in this case to something more classically Arthurian, rather than Renaissance French.

Clan of Alhambra: You can keep this as a clan of elves descended from a far-distant land settled in the dismal north, or change it to a clan of Alvar (Blue Elves), blue-skinned Norse-style elves. Hell, keep them as Flamenco Elves and add a new House of Alvar...

Clan of Ellerovyn: As elves, these work just fine. There are forests north of Avalon that suit them perfectly. They are High Elves, of the Wilderlands Kingdom of Alfheim (as opposed to the Mystaran Kingdom of Alfheim, very different...) In addition to dealing with forest-magic, they concentrate on teleportation and gate magic, as it is the Fairie Gates that Alfheim builds that keep the disparate lands of the kingdom together...

As for the Radiance, that fits in just fine, too. There are all sorts of reasons it could exist in the Wilderlands, including the original techno-magical source of the Mystaran version.

James Mishler
Main Man, Adventure Games Publishing
jamesagp1@gmail.com
http://adventuregamespublishing.blogspot.com/
Personal Gameblog: http://jamesmishler.blogspot.com

*******************************************************

Leadjunkie:

Snoring Rock - you convinced me. I scored a copy of the Glantri box set new in the shrink wrap on eBay for just under $15.

James - really good recommendations. Thanks for the insight. Is this from conversations with Bob or your updated take for WoHA? When you say "Arthurian Chivalric", are you referring to a Tennyson like version of the Arthurian tales or a more modern understanding of a Sub-Roman Dark Ages Arthur?

James goes on to say, "a dash of old Norse". This could explain the enmity toward Dwarves (I'd definitely drop the hafling enmity). Norse mythology lumps Dwarves and Elves (not to be confused with the Vanir of Asgard) together to include all manor of strange beings with supernatural powers. Given James' inclusion of two sub-races of Elves in the noble houses, I think I would drop this aspect all together.

*****************************

James Mishler:
Well, however you want to make it, really...

Generally, take everything you know about Arthurian romance, add in Boorman's Excalibur, a dash of T.H. White's Sword in the Stone, the Kingdom of Merilon from the Darksword Trilogy, ice and water magic in particular and all sorts of magic in general; mix well; and let stew for 4,000 years with minimal outside influence, and that's what Valon and the Avalonians are like. Core ideas:

1) Ancient, complex social class and caste system;
2) Concepts of honor and order;
3) Advancement outside caste system through chivalry and wizardry;
4) Culturally isolationist, yet individuals may believe in "personal crusades to the benighted lands;"
5) Wizard/knights in shining plate mail (think Lancelot from Excalibur, will fight a non-wizard foe with swords, wizarding foes with magic);
6) Dash of Norse = modern movie interpretations of Beowulf, but classier. The recent Beowulf movie hits the look dead on, as it is a late Dark Age/early Middle Ages style. 13th Warrior gets the feel of the setting more rightly, as it is still quite dark and ugly in the world outside. Put the warriors from 13th Warrior in the setting of the later parts of Beowulf, plus most folks know at least some magic, and it's just about right...

I've adapted the ancient, staid ice wizard elements and religion of the Boxed Set Valon to my own more savage Arthurian/Norse interpretation of the setting, to keep things more intact. I liked the ideas presented in the boxed set about ice magic and the deities, so just adapted them wholesale to my own original interpretation (which was more a Dark Age/Excalibur mix of the Arthurian mythos and Norse pantheon from the original D&DG). The idea of wizarding knights is cool; I kinda liked what David Eddings did with his Elenium series in that direction, so I have no problem with adapting it for the WoHA...

Oh, and the "Roman" influence in the area, as such, is more distinctly "Russo-Byzantine." The ancient Imperial influence in the region is Auld Tarshian, which is a mere shadow of the utterly ancient and (originally) inhuman Empire of Torsh from the Far East... in the WoHA, the people of Tarsh are Russo-Slavic in culture.

And I should add that the "Norse" influence is from the barbaric Valonar peoples, the cousins of the Avalonians. The three tribes of the Valonar (Markka, Norkka, and Sverkka) are the cousins of the Avalonians and Skandiks equally; it was a mixed tribe of Valonar exiles that undertook the original colonization of Altania under Skandi Greywulf in the late 22nd century...

James goes on to say, "a dash of old Norse". This could explain the enmity toward Dwarves (I'd definitely drop the hafling enmity). Norse mythology lumps Dwarves and Elves (not to be confused with the Vanir of Asgard) together to include all manor of strange beings with supernatural powers. Given James' inclusion of two sub-races of Elves in the noble houses, I think I would drop this aspect all together.
The emnities are from the Glantri set, and can be kept or dumped depending on the needs of the campaign... and it is all predicated on using Glantri as Valon, as no such thing exists in the Valon of the WoHA...

BUT again, I cannot emphasize enough, the Wilderlands is always and in every way what each individual judge makes of it!

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Snoring Rock:
That was a mouth-full. This is good stuff. I copeid every word an put it in my note book. I have already made some changes over the weekend to Glantri to make it more Avalonian. I agree, the principalities can be adapted to fit the traditional Wilderlands Valon, which is the flavor I am after. I like the magical/Norse mixture you have suggested. I am scanning the book today, but in my forst quick pass, I find very few alliances or tribute to Valon. They really are isolationist. I can set up a few out-lying villages as homes or manner-homes of leadership in these royal houses to adapt Galantri. This was an excellent choice.

********************

James Mishler:
One thing you can do, if you want more lands for the Avalonians, is draw up your own map to the north of Valon. The Avalonians control extensive territories north of Valon, the lands known as Valonaria. An excerpt from the World of the Wilderlands article in AGJ #1:

"Immediately to the north of the Wilderlands and south of the Great Escarpment is Valonaria, the domain of the Avalonians and their savage Valonar cousins. The great northern city-states of Val-Torsh, Valfodthr, Valamala, Valoria, and Valmidthra, each the equal of Valon itself, are known only in legend to the southern peoples. The savage lands between the fiefdoms of the Avalonian city-states are home to various tribes of semi-nomadic Valonar, as is the Lower Ukulan Sea below Sûrya Falls. The Ice Temple of Aram Kor sits atop a glacier in the mountains of a vast island between the eastern and western arms of the falls."

These are their homelands, including several more cities, a good number of towns, and plenty of hamlets, castles, and citadels. One of the reasons the Avalonians were never expansionist to the south is that they didn't need to be; they essentially ruled all the fertile lands between the Uther Pentwegern Sea and the Great Escarpment, south of the Alvar Kingdoms, west of Tarsh, and east of Land of Beasts. As mentioned, though, the lands in-between are home to savage barbarians, Valonar and otherwise, so in their homelands the Avalonians are much like the Alryans of the Roglaras; they rule the cities and towns, small "Points of Light" amidst a howling wilderness. Each of the aforementioned cities is ruled by a Prince (never a son of the King, nor even of the same royal clan, by ancient laws to keep a balance between the houses)...

Anyhoo... there will be a map of Valonaria soon enough. The Continental Map is first up, then a map of Near Karak; thereafter the map of Valonaria, the Infinite Desert, or the Demon Empire, I've not yet decided...


*******************************

Snoring rock:
James....you are scaring me. I just got back on here to ask what was north of Valon and to see what you thought of making small city states out of these very clannish principalities. The Wilderlands do not lend themselves to large controlled areas like Glantri, but both worj well with several points of light north of Valon. Since I happen to already be working on remapping Blackmoor and the Hak to the west, they would connect at the great glacier. This is good stuff.....again I am on a roll here. Thank you for all the awsome tidbits. Oh, hurry up and get those maps done!

************'
Lead Junkie:
Snoring Rock - If you aren't subscribing to James WoHA Journal, you should be. The first issue was great. I'm really looking forward to the second one.

* Not so subtle nudge to James*
****************************

Snoring rock:

Ice Elves
I see that the population of elves is nat all thet great in the Wilderlands. I am thinking, since they are more prevelent in Blackmoor, perhaps to the north there are more of them. So, for my Great Glacier map, north of Valon, I have mountains covered by glacier.....so anyone have any idea where to find some stats on some d20 blue elves?

***********************

James Mishler:
Ummm... in the Player's Guide to the Wilderlands? Page 24, "Northern Elves" entry, aka "Blue Elves" or "Alvar." One thing they forgot to include, though, was the ice/cold resistance and suseptibility to fire/heat... add:

Resistance to Ice and Cold (Ex): Alvar ignore the first 5 points of damage dealt to them by any ice or cold-based attacks.

and

Susceptibility to Fire and Heat (Ex): Alvar suffer a -2 penalty to saves against fire or heat effects.

******************************

Snoring rock:
ames, what I meant was that the population is not that large and that they do not controll or "haunt" so to speak, a large swath of territory. I have the Players Guide and I am going down stairs to get it now. I finished my Great Glacier map today (expert autocad user)....you would be proud. It even connects to my Plains of Hak from the "re-drawn" Blackmoor map.....as you suggested. Thank you for all of your cool advice, ideas, and knowledge on the best setting ever published!


**************************

James Mishler:
The continental map is designed under the assumption that the Wilderlands region maps remain at their 5-mile-per-hex scale.

Each regional map is 170 miles north-south and 230 miles east-west (the Wilderlands book incorrectly states 260 miles eas-west).

Each district of 3 maps east-west and 6 maps north-south is thus ~690 miles east-west and ~1,020 miles north-south.

The Rhadamanthia Continental Map is five districts east-west and three districts north-south, for a total area of ~3,450 miles east-west by ~3,060 miles north-south. The area covered is huge, about equal to Europe, Africa north of the central Sahara, the western Middle East, and the western portion of Russia... Iceland in the northwest and Canary Islands in the southwest, to the Ural Mountains in the northeast and southern Arabia in the southeast.

*********************************

Snoring rock:

There were a few things I threw out, but I kept quite a lot too. The Great Glacier does not boast a huge population. So I took it principality by principality, and instead of using the populations listed, I devided them by 10. This gave me small villiages, run by nobility from Valon. I used James Mishlers idea for the races in the begining of this thread. I have a huge glaciated mountain range north of the villages and trading posts. The culture from west to east is Slavic changing to a slight Germanic thrust to Escimoes to the east, which connects with the Hak from Blackmoor, which is Native American. It fits nicely. The French influenced names and places from Glantri lend themselves well to the large amount of hunters and trappers along the glacial rim. I love the vampiric families of Rymskigrad and the Werewolves of Loupmont. It just adds to the Wilderlands flavor. Enjoy it this weekend, and if you get any great ideas that are worth sharing.....please do. I thre out the map and made my own of course.

Did you ever get a chance to mail those elves? If you want, I can run a copy of my map and send you one if you want it for ideas. I expect your is better than mine, but you just never know.

************

Leadjunkie:

Frostburn vs. Frost & Fur - environment books for a Valon campaign

Any Judge running an arctic/sub-arctic campaign (or any cold environment for that matter) would be well served to have a copy of WotC's Frostburn or Monkey God Enterprises' Frost & Fur; The Explorer's Guide to the Frozen Lands. It has been mentioned on these boards that Frost & Fur is the better of the two. I don't disagree. If I could only have one, that would be my choice as well. I like both for different reasons and suggest having both if it is in your budget.

Here is a brief compare and contrast.

Frostburn is 224 pages with typical WotC color art and borders. Just a personal issue, but I hate the parchment colored page that starts every chapter, making it difficult for these aging eyes to read. Frost & Fur is 237 pages with black and white art only.

Frostburn's first chapter deals with the Frostfell (WotC's name for the arctic lands). It covers different environments found in the arctic, special hazards, supernatural occurrences, and a brief covering of terrain types found in the arctic (23 pgs). Frost & Fur covers similar topics with its focus being on terrain and environmental hazards (22 pgs).

The second chapter of Frostburn covers Races, Classes and Feats. The racial variants are minor tweaks on the core races with the introduction of Neanderthals and Uldras (7 pgs). A couple of pages cover existing classes. Arctic feats (but not skills) take up the remainder of the chapter (5 pgs). The third chapter is devoted to ten prestige classes; the bane of 3.5 to my mind (21 pgs). Frost & Fur covers these topics in three chapters, declining to add prestige classes with the statement that they are campaign specific and the Judge should determine which core prestige classes are appropriate. Races are not given short shrift here (11 pgs). Most of the core races are provided with Slavic, Nordic, Eskimo and Ice Age variants. Some board members have expressed distaste for historical analogs to their fantasy settings. Nevertheless, there are interesting insights to be gained here. One can borrow ideas without having a fantastic Slavic race. Classes, including NPC classes (not covered by WotC) are given some options (5 pgs). Much more attention is paid to skills and feats in Frost & Fur The application of skills in the arctic along with new skills is covered, which is glaringly missing from Frostburn (4 pgs). A greater selection of environment related feats is provided (8 pgs). Curiously, Frost & Fur tags on a page of modifiers to the schools of magic and a new ice domain to this chapter.

Frostburn's 4th chapter covers new equipment (6 pgs). Frost & Fur's chapter has a much greater selection of equipment, especially weapons and transportation (14 pgs). Oddly, Frost & Fur tacked on a page of information about trade commodities in the classes' chapter.

Magic of the Frostfell is covered in chapter 5 of Frostburn. New spells, a cold domain and a page each devoted to psionics and magic items (26 pgs). Frost & Fur breaks this up into two chapters; spells (24 pgs) and magic items (8pgs).

Monsters can be found in chapter 6 of Frostburn. About 50 monsters are covered (53 pgs). Frost & Fur has much more with 85 creatures and about 15 templates (51 pgs).

The remainder of the books is where they greatly diverge.

Frostburn's final chapter provides two adventure sites. Delzomen's Iceforge (EL5) provides a nice two level mini dungeon that introduces many of the features and creatures introduced in the book (11 pgs). Icerazer: The Ice Berg City is a small city, population 5,800 consisting of snow goblins 25%, tieflings 20%, humans 17%, orc 6% and uldra 6%. A decent map and a good selection of NPCs with full stats are provided. Eleven major encounter areas are described with a three level map of the palace (21 pgs).

I could easily see Icerazer's population being changed, making Icerazer Palace home to an Avalonian mages school. What better way to have a secret school than a floating city in the Uther Pentwegern Sea. No doubt the powerful mages control the iceberg's movement.

Finally, there is a very expansive appendix of cold weather terrain specific encounter charts (26 pages).

Frost and Fur closes with four chapters covering cultures, starting with the Norse (29 pgs). The section on gods is of little use if you have Deities & Demigods. Each god is given a very brief description, alignment, domains, weapon and rank within the pantheon. Inexplicably Odin is not listed. Eskimo (11 pgs), Slavic (17 pgs) and Ice Age (6 pgs) round out the cultures.

**********************************

Snoring rock:

I have copied/pasted and printed this post of yours Lead. Your observations are valued. I am going to get a copy of Frost and Fur. I see that it is usually listed a t a slightly higher price than Frostburn. I suspsect circulation numbers and content are the reasoning. If a copy of Frostburn happen my way at the right price then I will snatch that up as well.

I really want this floating iceberg as a school. It is just too fantastic to pass up. Thanks for all the insights.



Hey Lead, I received my Frost and Fur. Excellent book. This thing is jam-packed with cold goodness. I like the white pages too. There is more content, less fluff. I appreciate your review of the book and the comparisons between this and Frostburn. This will help a great deal with my Avalonian area to the north.


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-Havard]]> <![CDATA[[Necromancer Repost] Valon, City of the Ice Wizards (Apr 08)]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1624 Sat, 23 Nov 2013 04:04:45 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1624 http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... ce-Wizards

Snoring Rock:

Ok, still looking for more ideas. James Mishler and Leadjunkie have me going already. Here is what I have so far. I am using Glantri as Valon. I am using the principalities in the Glantri as the nobility spread over the lower rim of the great glacier north of Valon. I have created a map the same size as those in the Wilderlands boxed set and used the same numbered hexes. It connects on the east with Blackmoor, which I have also converted the standard 5 mile hex grids and on the south to map #2 Valon.

The features are points of light-type settlements ruled by princes from Valon, some good, some not so much. I have inter-mingled the Pathfinder adventures 3 and 4. By the way, these Pathfinders are so much worth the money, I cant even describe my sheer joy with the quality and art, the thoughtful and tastefull work, thank you Dark Mistress for turning me on to these. Most excellent!

Anyway, I have positioned the Pathfinder modules, as well as 3 short adventures free off the WoTC download site (Tower in the Ice, Frozen Whispers, An Icy Heart, and Haunting Lodge) then I got a copy of the DCC #43 Curse of the Barrens and plugged it in. I have named a few places out of each module and then tied it all together, along with a huge population of blue elves, cavemen, migrating mastodons, ice monsters, and ice wizards.

I have out done myself this time. Now I am looking for ideas for the hidden secret school of magic for the ice wizards of Valon, that is rumored to be up there somewhere. I know where, its on my map, I just want ideas for the place itself. You have all been so helpful, so I figured I would go to te experts. Ok Leadjunky....you first.

*****************


Dark Mistress:

Why not a giant ice castle. made long ago with powerful magics. while it is indeed made of ice. it never melts and the walls are harder than stone. With a curtain wall around the whole thing and a large castle/keep in the center with smaller buildings around it. The newer buildings could be more traditional built. The ice keep it's self could even have the inner walls that glow faintly on command, giving off a pale blueish white light as they do.

Also if you like the 3rd and 4th pathfinder I recomened checking out the rest. While the 6th might be of limited use since it is the grand finally of series and focuses on... well I won't say. But lets just say i am not sure it would make a great stand alone adventure. You could rework it though with a little effort and have it be stand alone. then 1st and 2nd ones are both good. the 5th one is the only one of the series I don't have yet. From what I have seen and heard their gamemaster adventures aka pathfinder adventures (as they are now called) are all mostly stand alone and of similar quality as the Pathfinder Rise of the Runelords series.

******************************


Snoring rock:

I went to FBN last Saturday during D&D day and got 20% off on both. They have the new Gamemaster Series and the other Pathfinders. I just cant say enough about the quality. if this is what Necro is turning out on their Pathfinder, then the 4E players are in for quite a treat.

I am printing your description of the Ice Castle. I am seeing this thin glowing blue in the cold darkness of the long arctic night. The out-buildings really add character to the place with an on-going feel, yet keeping with the ancient. I am seeing the ancient castle with tall "Disney" spires and some sharp icy things like in Superman's ice hide-out surrounding it and the outer buildings. Excellent ideas, and even better description.

Thank you Mistress.


What about wizards spells that can only be learned in Valon or in the hidden school? Is there anything like that in Frostburn or Frost and Fur?



*************************
Dark Mistress:

Your welcome.

I am sure their is tons of cold based spells, but I never bought many spell books. So I am not sure, i am sure they exist just not sure where you might find them.

****************


Sykoholic:

If "G2 - Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl" doesn't find it's way in there, I will come looking for you and when I find you, it will not be pretty.

Might I also suggest "Dragons of Ice" from the classic Dragonlance series.


*************************


Varianor:

*Their spells are frozen in the ice. To learn one of the secret spells, you must freeze yourself into the ice. Only when you know the spell will they thaw you. The greatest wizards of the order are perpetually entombed inside the glacier, sending forth magical projections with the secret spells of the school.

*The doors only open once a year - at midwinter.

*The healers of the school literally put icewater in the veins of the students. It's a prerequisite to learning the secret spells.

*A tiny little path atop the glacier leads to a long, blue ice-cave, that twists and worms its way into the heart of the glacier, where an ice wall as clear as glass holds a portal within the glacier. A portal to a world of eternal ice where the wizards rule supreme once they achieve high levels of power. Acolytes, students and apprentices must find the portal, enter it, and survive a night and a day in a world of eternal dark and cold.

Now, how about a spell? (You might want to charge a feat for this.)

Ice Insight
Transmutation
Level: 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Duration: 1 day/level
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

When you become the target of a cold-based spell, you may redirect it back at the caster. Make a caster level check opposed by the caster of the cold spell. If you succeed, the spell directs back and targets or centers upon the caster. If the DC of the saving throw would be higher (as if you cast the spell yourself), it increases to your save DC.


**********************

Snoring rock:

Holy Cow Syk, I have already put G2 in the summit of a mountain in map #1, Elpahand Lands. I would never tempt the Gods by leaving that classic out. I will get Dragons of Ice for sure dude.
Valianor......this is fantastic stuff, its not copy righted is it?
image

*******************************


varianor:
All yours my friend. Just wrote it.


*************************

Sykoholic:

Snoring Rock wrote:
Quote:I have already put G2 in the summit of a mountain in map #1, Elpahand Lands.
My masters are pleased and have bid me grant you a stay of execution. Use it wisely.

All joking aside, I seem to recall Fiery Dragon had a couple of "artic" adventures. I can't saying whether or not they were any good though. I can't even recall the titles right off hand.

Troll Lords' "Treklant" adventure series might fit as well. There's also the Greyhawk adventure "Howl from the North" and the Forgotten Realms adventure "The Accursed Tower".


**************************************


Treebore:

I don't think it was Fiery Dragon. It could have been, but I think it may have actually been MonkeyGod your thinking of.


******************************


Dark Mistress:

MonkeyGod made Frost and Fur and arctic book. it if I recall dealt with the hazards, cultures, ect of such a enviroment. As for the adventure i think your thinking of Natures Fury by Fiery Dragon a book with 2 arctic adventures in it. One was with a ice keep and forget the other one off hand.


*****************

Sykoholic:

I just looked. It was Fiery Dragon. The book is called "Nature's Fury" and contains two adventures, "Swords through the Ice Gate" by Mike Mearls and "The Crystal Tower" by James Bell.

MonkeyGod made some good stuff too, though I'm not sure if any of it was "artic". Maybe "Maze of Scream Silence" but I'm not 100% positive.

*********************************


Deepcut:

I think that you should rent the A Year Without Santa Claus and study in depth the Freeze Meister. He is quite diabolical.

I'm Mister White Christmas
I'm Mister Snow
I'm Mister Icicle
I'm Mister Ten Below

Friends call me Snow Miser
What-ever I touch
Turns to snow in my clutch
I'm too much!


*************************


Snoring Rock:

Actually Syk I placed G1-3 in the Elphandlands right away, when I got the Wilderlands Boxed Set. I debated taking G2 out and placing it in the Great Glacier, but that region in the Elphan territories makes too much good sense. It is just infested with giants. I had thought of inserting Pathfinder Fortress of the Stone Giants there as well, but after taking a close look, I decided to use it as a lead into the colder regions. I am so glad to hear someone that likes those giant modules as much as I do. They are some of the all time best ever. They make it into every campaign I run. I am checking out these other suggestion of yours too. We seem to like the same stuff, so I trust your judgement for sure.

Whats your feeling on the D-series? I was not impressed so much. And Q1 kind of left me wanting. I have run the two series separately over the years. I have the re-wrtie of the Shrine of the Kuotoa and I like the island setting much better.

Varianor, I have infused your ice-blood transfusions and frozen wizards in the blue cave with Dark Mistress' ice castle. The creativity is just fantastic. Thanks again.

Deepcut, I cannot thank you enough for your brilliant comic relief. Ok, now I am wondering how you can remember those lyrics. :lol:


*************************
Seppuku Squirrels:

Ice Spells.... Ice Spells... wasn't there a spell like Ice Sled designed for snow region travel in that book Eldritch Sorcery? Why yes, there is. I'm sure your campaign will be the first to use it.

***************


Sykoholic:
Have you checked out the Silver Anniversary version? All three complied along with the surrounding countryside that the giants and their allies have invaded, including several villages and a number of giant forts and outposts, as well as an "alternate ending" that involves cloud giants rather than dark elves.

*****************

Snoring rock:

No, I have not seen the silver aniversary edition. I figured it was just a compilation. I like the idea of the alternate ending. That fits my campaign much better. I went to WoTC site and I have the really cool, re-drawn color maps. They came out really nice. I am guessing that in order to get this alternate ending that I will have to search the farthest reaches on the known world to find a copy. I am sure it is a collector's dream to have. I know its not on pdf anywhere I have seen. Got any ideas where to look first?

There is a JG cloud giant adventure out there somwewhere too. That is probably on $2 pdf version. I have been toying with the idea of adding aerial adventures to my Wilderlands, through some kind of Avalonian/Valon/Ice Wizard connection. That old JG module seems like it could fit in there possibly or even this silver edition G-series.

**************

varianor:
You're welcome! You will let us know how this goes, right? Right? This is all damn cool imagery.


********

Continued in next post:]]> http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... ce-Wizards

Snoring Rock:

Ok, still looking for more ideas. James Mishler and Leadjunkie have me going already. Here is what I have so far. I am using Glantri as Valon. I am using the principalities in the Glantri as the nobility spread over the lower rim of the great glacier north of Valon. I have created a map the same size as those in the Wilderlands boxed set and used the same numbered hexes. It connects on the east with Blackmoor, which I have also converted the standard 5 mile hex grids and on the south to map #2 Valon.

The features are points of light-type settlements ruled by princes from Valon, some good, some not so much. I have inter-mingled the Pathfinder adventures 3 and 4. By the way, these Pathfinders are so much worth the money, I cant even describe my sheer joy with the quality and art, the thoughtful and tastefull work, thank you Dark Mistress for turning me on to these. Most excellent!

Anyway, I have positioned the Pathfinder modules, as well as 3 short adventures free off the WoTC download site (Tower in the Ice, Frozen Whispers, An Icy Heart, and Haunting Lodge) then I got a copy of the DCC #43 Curse of the Barrens and plugged it in. I have named a few places out of each module and then tied it all together, along with a huge population of blue elves, cavemen, migrating mastodons, ice monsters, and ice wizards.

I have out done myself this time. Now I am looking for ideas for the hidden secret school of magic for the ice wizards of Valon, that is rumored to be up there somewhere. I know where, its on my map, I just want ideas for the place itself. You have all been so helpful, so I figured I would go to te experts. Ok Leadjunky....you first.

*****************


Dark Mistress:

Why not a giant ice castle. made long ago with powerful magics. while it is indeed made of ice. it never melts and the walls are harder than stone. With a curtain wall around the whole thing and a large castle/keep in the center with smaller buildings around it. The newer buildings could be more traditional built. The ice keep it's self could even have the inner walls that glow faintly on command, giving off a pale blueish white light as they do.

Also if you like the 3rd and 4th pathfinder I recomened checking out the rest. While the 6th might be of limited use since it is the grand finally of series and focuses on... well I won't say. But lets just say i am not sure it would make a great stand alone adventure. You could rework it though with a little effort and have it be stand alone. then 1st and 2nd ones are both good. the 5th one is the only one of the series I don't have yet. From what I have seen and heard their gamemaster adventures aka pathfinder adventures (as they are now called) are all mostly stand alone and of similar quality as the Pathfinder Rise of the Runelords series.

******************************


Snoring rock:

I went to FBN last Saturday during D&D day and got 20% off on both. They have the new Gamemaster Series and the other Pathfinders. I just cant say enough about the quality. if this is what Necro is turning out on their Pathfinder, then the 4E players are in for quite a treat.

I am printing your description of the Ice Castle. I am seeing this thin glowing blue in the cold darkness of the long arctic night. The out-buildings really add character to the place with an on-going feel, yet keeping with the ancient. I am seeing the ancient castle with tall "Disney" spires and some sharp icy things like in Superman's ice hide-out surrounding it and the outer buildings. Excellent ideas, and even better description.

Thank you Mistress.


What about wizards spells that can only be learned in Valon or in the hidden school? Is there anything like that in Frostburn or Frost and Fur?



*************************
Dark Mistress:

Your welcome.

I am sure their is tons of cold based spells, but I never bought many spell books. So I am not sure, i am sure they exist just not sure where you might find them.

****************


Sykoholic:

If "G2 - Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl" doesn't find it's way in there, I will come looking for you and when I find you, it will not be pretty.

Might I also suggest "Dragons of Ice" from the classic Dragonlance series.


*************************


Varianor:

*Their spells are frozen in the ice. To learn one of the secret spells, you must freeze yourself into the ice. Only when you know the spell will they thaw you. The greatest wizards of the order are perpetually entombed inside the glacier, sending forth magical projections with the secret spells of the school.

*The doors only open once a year - at midwinter.

*The healers of the school literally put icewater in the veins of the students. It's a prerequisite to learning the secret spells.

*A tiny little path atop the glacier leads to a long, blue ice-cave, that twists and worms its way into the heart of the glacier, where an ice wall as clear as glass holds a portal within the glacier. A portal to a world of eternal ice where the wizards rule supreme once they achieve high levels of power. Acolytes, students and apprentices must find the portal, enter it, and survive a night and a day in a world of eternal dark and cold.

Now, how about a spell? (You might want to charge a feat for this.)

Ice Insight
Transmutation
Level: 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Duration: 1 day/level
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

When you become the target of a cold-based spell, you may redirect it back at the caster. Make a caster level check opposed by the caster of the cold spell. If you succeed, the spell directs back and targets or centers upon the caster. If the DC of the saving throw would be higher (as if you cast the spell yourself), it increases to your save DC.


**********************

Snoring rock:

Holy Cow Syk, I have already put G2 in the summit of a mountain in map #1, Elpahand Lands. I would never tempt the Gods by leaving that classic out. I will get Dragons of Ice for sure dude.
Valianor......this is fantastic stuff, its not copy righted is it?
image

*******************************


varianor:
All yours my friend. Just wrote it.


*************************

Sykoholic:

Snoring Rock wrote:
Quote:I have already put G2 in the summit of a mountain in map #1, Elpahand Lands.
My masters are pleased and have bid me grant you a stay of execution. Use it wisely.

All joking aside, I seem to recall Fiery Dragon had a couple of "artic" adventures. I can't saying whether or not they were any good though. I can't even recall the titles right off hand.

Troll Lords' "Treklant" adventure series might fit as well. There's also the Greyhawk adventure "Howl from the North" and the Forgotten Realms adventure "The Accursed Tower".


**************************************


Treebore:

I don't think it was Fiery Dragon. It could have been, but I think it may have actually been MonkeyGod your thinking of.


******************************


Dark Mistress:

MonkeyGod made Frost and Fur and arctic book. it if I recall dealt with the hazards, cultures, ect of such a enviroment. As for the adventure i think your thinking of Natures Fury by Fiery Dragon a book with 2 arctic adventures in it. One was with a ice keep and forget the other one off hand.


*****************

Sykoholic:

I just looked. It was Fiery Dragon. The book is called "Nature's Fury" and contains two adventures, "Swords through the Ice Gate" by Mike Mearls and "The Crystal Tower" by James Bell.

MonkeyGod made some good stuff too, though I'm not sure if any of it was "artic". Maybe "Maze of Scream Silence" but I'm not 100% positive.

*********************************


Deepcut:

I think that you should rent the A Year Without Santa Claus and study in depth the Freeze Meister. He is quite diabolical.

I'm Mister White Christmas
I'm Mister Snow
I'm Mister Icicle
I'm Mister Ten Below

Friends call me Snow Miser
What-ever I touch
Turns to snow in my clutch
I'm too much!


*************************


Snoring Rock:

Actually Syk I placed G1-3 in the Elphandlands right away, when I got the Wilderlands Boxed Set. I debated taking G2 out and placing it in the Great Glacier, but that region in the Elphan territories makes too much good sense. It is just infested with giants. I had thought of inserting Pathfinder Fortress of the Stone Giants there as well, but after taking a close look, I decided to use it as a lead into the colder regions. I am so glad to hear someone that likes those giant modules as much as I do. They are some of the all time best ever. They make it into every campaign I run. I am checking out these other suggestion of yours too. We seem to like the same stuff, so I trust your judgement for sure.

Whats your feeling on the D-series? I was not impressed so much. And Q1 kind of left me wanting. I have run the two series separately over the years. I have the re-wrtie of the Shrine of the Kuotoa and I like the island setting much better.

Varianor, I have infused your ice-blood transfusions and frozen wizards in the blue cave with Dark Mistress' ice castle. The creativity is just fantastic. Thanks again.

Deepcut, I cannot thank you enough for your brilliant comic relief. Ok, now I am wondering how you can remember those lyrics. :lol:


*************************
Seppuku Squirrels:

Ice Spells.... Ice Spells... wasn't there a spell like Ice Sled designed for snow region travel in that book Eldritch Sorcery? Why yes, there is. I'm sure your campaign will be the first to use it.

***************


Sykoholic:
Have you checked out the Silver Anniversary version? All three complied along with the surrounding countryside that the giants and their allies have invaded, including several villages and a number of giant forts and outposts, as well as an "alternate ending" that involves cloud giants rather than dark elves.

*****************

Snoring rock:

No, I have not seen the silver aniversary edition. I figured it was just a compilation. I like the idea of the alternate ending. That fits my campaign much better. I went to WoTC site and I have the really cool, re-drawn color maps. They came out really nice. I am guessing that in order to get this alternate ending that I will have to search the farthest reaches on the known world to find a copy. I am sure it is a collector's dream to have. I know its not on pdf anywhere I have seen. Got any ideas where to look first?

There is a JG cloud giant adventure out there somwewhere too. That is probably on $2 pdf version. I have been toying with the idea of adding aerial adventures to my Wilderlands, through some kind of Avalonian/Valon/Ice Wizard connection. That old JG module seems like it could fit in there possibly or even this silver edition G-series.

**************

varianor:
You're welcome! You will let us know how this goes, right? Right? This is all damn cool imagery.


********

Continued in next post:]]> <![CDATA[[Necromancer Repost] Question about Black Moor (March 2008)]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1623 Sat, 23 Nov 2013 03:54:50 -0700 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1623 http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... Black-Moor

Snoring Rock:
So far using this forum, I have found the regular "haunters", to be quite knowledgeable, so I continue on asking questions of the great oracles...

Past the Valley of the Ancients, far to the east, somewhere north I guess, of Karak is the correct location for Blackmoor. I know there was once published, maybe not, the "First Fantasy Campaign Map". I would like to add this map and any connected information to my Wilderlands campaign. Is there somewhere to get old maps, PDF's, or anything on this? I have Dave Arneson's Balck Moor published by Zeitgeist Games, but would really like to expand upon it and put is where it was intended to go. I know it was used by the late and very Great Gary Gygax in Grey Hawk, but I want the JG-like version. Please enlighten me o great oracles.


*****************

James Mishler:

First Fantasy Campaign was indeed Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, as close to direct from the author's version as possible. The map therein is in 10 mile hexes, which means that Blackmoor is the size of four regular Wilderlands maps, if you use the standard 5-mile hex. You can use four hex sheets to re-draw it at 5-mile hexes to make it fit perfectly if you want.

All you need to do is get the original First Fantasy Campaign, and you can tack it on the Wilderlands map to the northeast, as you say. It fits with the southwestern quarter directly above the Valley of the Ancients map. Of course, this is easier said than done, as the FFC set is now rare and expensive on eBay (usually ~$50+ depending on condition), and no legal PDF was ever made, as the rights were no longer held by Judges Guild when that technology came around.

Note that there is, at this time, a map of Blackmoor from the FFC on eBay alone, going for dirt-cheap because someone colored it in... so if you just need the map (having the Zeitgeist verison, that is all you would need), you could pick that up probbaly at a song.

The DA 1 Blackmoor map is essentially the same, though they changed the scale to the 24-mile hexes of the Known World of the day, they didn't actually change the map in any essential way, save to make it full color. You could use that with 10-mile hexes, and it would still fit right.

The new Zeitgeist map has been re-hexed entirely, so it would not fit quite right. But there is far more info on Blackmoor itself in the Zeitgeist books than in the FFC; the FFC has lots of interesting tidbits about gaming in the day, bit is not really the best campaign guidebook for the setting.

*********************


Snoring Rock:

I found the current Zeitgeist edition of the compaign at Drive Thru RPG. Seeing as I get 25% discount today, it is indeed my lucky day. Thank you for the info. I looked at another site with lots of maps, noe really good for gaming, but geeeeee....how many versions, locations, etc, are there for Black Moor? I find it in Greyhawk and in Mystara's deep past, but not the same. I see no mention or Thonia in the Wilderlands. Is there an official link or is this just "one of those given" things?

**************

James Mishler:
The Blackmoor found in Greyhawk is not the same Blackmoor as developed by Dave Arneson. Gary Gygax named it in honor of Dave's campaign, but there was no relation between the two lands.

When Blackmoor was attached to the Wilderlands, in First Fantasy Campaign, Blackmoor was to the north east of the Wilderlands, and Karak directly east, so Thonia was presumed to be somewhere east by northeast, perhaps even east of Karak. No real details were ever developed in Wilderlands canon, and after Judges Guild lost the rights to FFC, there was never any mention of Blackmoor still being a part of the Widlerlands. So really, it is up to the individual judge (as it always is with anything in the Wilderlands, anyway).

The relationship between Mystara and Blackmoor developed later, and the Wilderlands did not fit into it at all. Blackmoor was in Mystara's past, as was Thonia. In the Mystaran version of Blackmoor, Thonia was a vast empire to the south and southeast.


************************

Snoring Rock:
Thank you James, you always seem to be able to answer all those hard to answer questions on the Wilderlands. Speaking of which; just how committed are you to continuing your work in WoHA? I think if you continue, I will follow. Not with C&C I am committed to 3.5, but the generic mix is good, I can convert as I need. I get to add my own flavor that way.

************


mtbdm:
If you still need a map I can tell you I got all my old JG maps from NobleKnight Games at www.nobleknight.com


*****


Snoring Rock:

Thank you mtbdm! I find more stuff by asking here than anywhere else. I am a JG-CSIO freak I suppose. I am chasing after everything Blackmoor now. Noble Knight has some very hard to find material. I bet the collectors love this site!

************


leadjunkie:
If you are collector, then this is the site you need to check out:

http://www.acaeum.com/jg/

******

Snoring Rock:

I visited the site. Speachless.....

I am not actually a collector per se, but there are a few items near and dear to my heart that are "must have" items.


******

MtbDM:
Yes, I do! Seriously I've found the bulk of the hard-to-find stuff in my D&D collection on Nobleknight. It's a lot better than getting sniped on E-bay and you KNOW you're not going to get screwed dealing with Aaron Leeder. He's a great guy to do business with.

****************


Snoring rock:

Ebay.....the mind shutters. Like everything it seems, it was wonderful when it started...then the greed sets in. My next conquest is finding just the level 2 map for Dragon Mouintain. I ma using that for Analagorn's lair in the Majestic Fastness.

****************

Leadjunkie:

Didn't you post in another thread that you bought Dragon Mountain in PDF format? Is it missing a map, or not come with maps? Let me know. I can copy mine and send it to you. Shhh... don't tell anyone.

********************

Snoring Rock:

Check this out, I downloaded it from Drive-Thru RPG....never noticed that the disclaimer clearly informs the purchaser that the 2nd level map is missing. Doh! But on the bright side, the module is most excellent. I have some tweaking to do, but this fits nicely. I would very much like to take you up on the offer, as I am working on this and now that my appetite is whetted I will go crazy if I dont find the map of the 2nd level. I walked aboud the house bumping into wall mindlessly uttering...2nd level, 2nd level. Not good when you have guests. Oh, you can send that 2nd level to ckell (at) charter (dot) net. Many thanks Sir Leadjunkie and please know I am indebted to thee.



***********************


Havard:

Quote:jamesmishler wrote:

The relationship between Mystara and Blackmoor developed later, and the Wilderlands did not fit into it at all. Blackmoor was in Mystara's past, as was Thonia. In the Mystaran version of Blackmoor, Thonia was a vast empire to the south and southeast.


I like using Blackmoor and the Wilderlands in my historical Mystara

Havard

*****************************


James Mislher:

While officially they are distinct, as Havard and others do, one can most certainly use them together in one's own campaigns... I was merely stating the "official, canonical" stance on the relationship between the settings.


*********************************


Snoring rock:

and just to make things really confusing, I am using Glantri (set in Mystara) as Valon in the Wilderlands, with the principalities reoganized as the northern city states of Avalonians in the great glacier, and to the east i have Blackmoor. Its a crazy world huh?


************]]> http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... Black-Moor

Snoring Rock:
So far using this forum, I have found the regular "haunters", to be quite knowledgeable, so I continue on asking questions of the great oracles...

Past the Valley of the Ancients, far to the east, somewhere north I guess, of Karak is the correct location for Blackmoor. I know there was once published, maybe not, the "First Fantasy Campaign Map". I would like to add this map and any connected information to my Wilderlands campaign. Is there somewhere to get old maps, PDF's, or anything on this? I have Dave Arneson's Balck Moor published by Zeitgeist Games, but would really like to expand upon it and put is where it was intended to go. I know it was used by the late and very Great Gary Gygax in Grey Hawk, but I want the JG-like version. Please enlighten me o great oracles.


*****************

James Mishler:

First Fantasy Campaign was indeed Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, as close to direct from the author's version as possible. The map therein is in 10 mile hexes, which means that Blackmoor is the size of four regular Wilderlands maps, if you use the standard 5-mile hex. You can use four hex sheets to re-draw it at 5-mile hexes to make it fit perfectly if you want.

All you need to do is get the original First Fantasy Campaign, and you can tack it on the Wilderlands map to the northeast, as you say. It fits with the southwestern quarter directly above the Valley of the Ancients map. Of course, this is easier said than done, as the FFC set is now rare and expensive on eBay (usually ~$50+ depending on condition), and no legal PDF was ever made, as the rights were no longer held by Judges Guild when that technology came around.

Note that there is, at this time, a map of Blackmoor from the FFC on eBay alone, going for dirt-cheap because someone colored it in... so if you just need the map (having the Zeitgeist verison, that is all you would need), you could pick that up probbaly at a song.

The DA 1 Blackmoor map is essentially the same, though they changed the scale to the 24-mile hexes of the Known World of the day, they didn't actually change the map in any essential way, save to make it full color. You could use that with 10-mile hexes, and it would still fit right.

The new Zeitgeist map has been re-hexed entirely, so it would not fit quite right. But there is far more info on Blackmoor itself in the Zeitgeist books than in the FFC; the FFC has lots of interesting tidbits about gaming in the day, bit is not really the best campaign guidebook for the setting.

*********************


Snoring Rock:

I found the current Zeitgeist edition of the compaign at Drive Thru RPG. Seeing as I get 25% discount today, it is indeed my lucky day. Thank you for the info. I looked at another site with lots of maps, noe really good for gaming, but geeeeee....how many versions, locations, etc, are there for Black Moor? I find it in Greyhawk and in Mystara's deep past, but not the same. I see no mention or Thonia in the Wilderlands. Is there an official link or is this just "one of those given" things?

**************

James Mishler:
The Blackmoor found in Greyhawk is not the same Blackmoor as developed by Dave Arneson. Gary Gygax named it in honor of Dave's campaign, but there was no relation between the two lands.

When Blackmoor was attached to the Wilderlands, in First Fantasy Campaign, Blackmoor was to the north east of the Wilderlands, and Karak directly east, so Thonia was presumed to be somewhere east by northeast, perhaps even east of Karak. No real details were ever developed in Wilderlands canon, and after Judges Guild lost the rights to FFC, there was never any mention of Blackmoor still being a part of the Widlerlands. So really, it is up to the individual judge (as it always is with anything in the Wilderlands, anyway).

The relationship between Mystara and Blackmoor developed later, and the Wilderlands did not fit into it at all. Blackmoor was in Mystara's past, as was Thonia. In the Mystaran version of Blackmoor, Thonia was a vast empire to the south and southeast.


************************

Snoring Rock:
Thank you James, you always seem to be able to answer all those hard to answer questions on the Wilderlands. Speaking of which; just how committed are you to continuing your work in WoHA? I think if you continue, I will follow. Not with C&C I am committed to 3.5, but the generic mix is good, I can convert as I need. I get to add my own flavor that way.

************


mtbdm:
If you still need a map I can tell you I got all my old JG maps from NobleKnight Games at www.nobleknight.com


*****


Snoring Rock:

Thank you mtbdm! I find more stuff by asking here than anywhere else. I am a JG-CSIO freak I suppose. I am chasing after everything Blackmoor now. Noble Knight has some very hard to find material. I bet the collectors love this site!

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leadjunkie:
If you are collector, then this is the site you need to check out:

http://www.acaeum.com/jg/

******

Snoring Rock:

I visited the site. Speachless.....

I am not actually a collector per se, but there are a few items near and dear to my heart that are "must have" items.


******

MtbDM:
Yes, I do! Seriously I've found the bulk of the hard-to-find stuff in my D&D collection on Nobleknight. It's a lot better than getting sniped on E-bay and you KNOW you're not going to get screwed dealing with Aaron Leeder. He's a great guy to do business with.

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Snoring rock:

Ebay.....the mind shutters. Like everything it seems, it was wonderful when it started...then the greed sets in. My next conquest is finding just the level 2 map for Dragon Mouintain. I ma using that for Analagorn's lair in the Majestic Fastness.

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Leadjunkie:

Didn't you post in another thread that you bought Dragon Mountain in PDF format? Is it missing a map, or not come with maps? Let me know. I can copy mine and send it to you. Shhh... don't tell anyone.

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Snoring Rock:

Check this out, I downloaded it from Drive-Thru RPG....never noticed that the disclaimer clearly informs the purchaser that the 2nd level map is missing. Doh! But on the bright side, the module is most excellent. I have some tweaking to do, but this fits nicely. I would very much like to take you up on the offer, as I am working on this and now that my appetite is whetted I will go crazy if I dont find the map of the 2nd level. I walked aboud the house bumping into wall mindlessly uttering...2nd level, 2nd level. Not good when you have guests. Oh, you can send that 2nd level to ckell (at) charter (dot) net. Many thanks Sir Leadjunkie and please know I am indebted to thee.



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Havard:

Quote:jamesmishler wrote:

The relationship between Mystara and Blackmoor developed later, and the Wilderlands did not fit into it at all. Blackmoor was in Mystara's past, as was Thonia. In the Mystaran version of Blackmoor, Thonia was a vast empire to the south and southeast.


I like using Blackmoor and the Wilderlands in my historical Mystara

Havard

*****************************


James Mislher:

While officially they are distinct, as Havard and others do, one can most certainly use them together in one's own campaigns... I was merely stating the "official, canonical" stance on the relationship between the settings.


*********************************


Snoring rock:

and just to make things really confusing, I am using Glantri (set in Mystara) as Valon in the Wilderlands, with the principalities reoganized as the northern city states of Avalonians in the great glacier, and to the east i have Blackmoor. Its a crazy world huh?


************]]> <![CDATA[Arneson put R into RPGs (Cracked.com article)]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1574 Sun, 08 Sep 2013 11:02:33 -0600 Havard]]> https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/showthread.php?tid=1574 http://www.cracked.com/article_19576_6- ... it_p2.html

I'm sure you have seen this article before, which has the following to say about Dave Arneson:

Quote:E. Gary Gygax is considered the father of not only Dungeons and Dragons, but also the modern RPG industry itself. When, in reality, he was more like the weird uncle who lives in the garage and keeps clogging the toilet.


Who Actually Deserves the Credit:

During a nerd side quest, Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax had an epic random encounter when they chanced to meet at Gen Con in 1969. Gygax was working on something called Chainmail, which was a war simulator only a bit more complicated than the average board game. With Arneson's influence, Chainmail was adapted to include:

- Exploring dungeons

- Using a neutral judge/dungeon master

- Conversations with imaginary characters (NPCs) to develop the storyline

- Hit points

- Experience points

- The concept of role-playing an individual character rather than just rolling dice

So, basically, he put the "R" in RPG.


In fairness, Gygax was the man who introduced Cheetos and Mountain Dew to tabletop gaming.

Then why did Arneson's name fail its saving throw against history? Because in 1976, Arneson left TSR, the company that published D&D, to pursue a career as an independent game designer. In 1977, TSR released a new version of the game, cleverly titled Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, and insisted that they didn't owe him any royalties. Arneson started filing lawsuits, while Gygax just looked around, realized that somebody was paying him to play D&D and tried his best not to rock this boat that should not be.

I think the slam against Gary in the article is unneccesary. It should be possible to honor both men for their important contributions to founding our hobby. However, it is nice to see someone giving Arneson credit besides those belonging to our little community here Smile

-Havard]]> http://www.cracked.com/article_19576_6- ... it_p2.html

I'm sure you have seen this article before, which has the following to say about Dave Arneson:

Quote:E. Gary Gygax is considered the father of not only Dungeons and Dragons, but also the modern RPG industry itself. When, in reality, he was more like the weird uncle who lives in the garage and keeps clogging the toilet.


Who Actually Deserves the Credit:

During a nerd side quest, Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax had an epic random encounter when they chanced to meet at Gen Con in 1969. Gygax was working on something called Chainmail, which was a war simulator only a bit more complicated than the average board game. With Arneson's influence, Chainmail was adapted to include:

- Exploring dungeons

- Using a neutral judge/dungeon master

- Conversations with imaginary characters (NPCs) to develop the storyline

- Hit points

- Experience points

- The concept of role-playing an individual character rather than just rolling dice

So, basically, he put the "R" in RPG.


In fairness, Gygax was the man who introduced Cheetos and Mountain Dew to tabletop gaming.

Then why did Arneson's name fail its saving throw against history? Because in 1976, Arneson left TSR, the company that published D&D, to pursue a career as an independent game designer. In 1977, TSR released a new version of the game, cleverly titled Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, and insisted that they didn't owe him any royalties. Arneson started filing lawsuits, while Gygax just looked around, realized that somebody was paying him to play D&D and tried his best not to rock this boat that should not be.

I think the slam against Gary in the article is unneccesary. It should be possible to honor both men for their important contributions to founding our hobby. However, it is nice to see someone giving Arneson credit besides those belonging to our little community here Smile

-Havard]]>