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Old Geezer;9098258 Wrote:Sigh.

You know, Smilin' Dave Arneson is still around, and he's very active in (I think) Church of Christ ( or similar evangelical Church). And Gary was a Jehovah's Witness.

Sigh.

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Old Geezer;12177801 Wrote:Blackmoor started sometime in 1970 or 1971, Greyhawk started in 1972.

Blackmoor was a much grimmer, grittier place than Greyhawk. Blackmoor characters were much more of the "band of thieves in an uneasy alliance" mode, whereas Greyhawk, we were "adventurers, sometimes friendly rivals".

In Greyhawk, if you got killed in a dungeon crawl, we'd bring your body back and pay for the raise dead out of your share of the treasure.

In Blackmoor, if you got killed, the other players would loot your body.

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Old Geezer;6693472 Wrote:"Additional conditions, like the assassin needing complete surprise to assassinate, are added in the next edition the assassin class appears in, but are absent at this point."

That's because it was considered bloody fucking obvious. The first 3 to 4 years at TSR was mostly marked by incredulity at how explicitly things had to be spelled out that seemed totally obvious to us.





They existed side by side.

Though Howard and Leiber have been mentioned as important inspiriations, Original D&D was also VERY much a product of Saturday afternoon "B" movies - hence vampires are straight out of Hammer Films, and Gary's favorite example of a sword fight between high level characters was the climactic duel between Basil Rathbone and Errol Flynn at the end of "Robin Hood".

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Old Geezer;9257005 Wrote:The first fantasy RPG, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, was actually a miniatures campaign.

There were "Good" players, and there were "Evil" players.

Eventually the Good guys won, and all the Evil players got tired of getting trounced and wanted to be Good guys too.

But they all wanted to keep playing.

So Dave just decided that he'd play all the bad guys himself. Everybody else was good with this because it meant the game would go on.

And the rest is history.

EDIT: Two other things to remember:

1) There was an expectation that sometimes, the right answer for the PCs was "Run Away!"

2) Blackmoor and Greyhawk were both "sandbox" games; there was no predetermined plot. "Story" was whatever the PCs happened to do.

Quote:And if you had fun, you were doing it right.

Quote:Yes.

Rob and Gary were in a competition to give each other NPC henchmen with annoying names.

Like Rob's wizard Otto ("Otto iss my name, unt magick is my game!") or his sage, Herb.

Quote:It should be noted that in Dave Arneson's BLACKMOOR, at least at first, a magic user had to do a "Research Project" to go up a level.

And somebody... I believe Ross Maker, though I can't swear to it... decided the corpses strewn around the dungeon were too untidy.

Hence Ochre Jelly, Black Pudding, and other handy "Cleanup Crew" monsters.

Yep, invented by a PC.

Quote:THAT is sad.

Actually, the whole damn thing makes me sad. I liked Dave and Gary both. I hate the notion of "sides".

EDIT: I gave a deposition to Dave's lawyer for "The Lawsuit". My statement, which I STILL stand by, was that "Dungeons and Dragons" would not exist if not for BOTH Dave Arneson AND Gary Gygax.

Quote:Thanks.

I have stated elsewhere that this shit happened 30 to 38 YEARS ago, and my memory is far from... what was I saying?

Also, Gary and Dave were the creators; I was one of the first CONSUMERS of what they wrote. That in itself will make for a very different viewpoint.

They were also about 30 and 25 when they started. I was 17 and had never encountered anything like this before.

I've never said I offered "absolute unvarnished truth", just "how I remember things going".

And it's fun for me to think back on it and to see how my perspective has changed as well. For instance, despite being one of the people who argued most vigorously against "all weapons do the same damage", I now think that the original highly abstract combat of brown-box D&D is friggin' genius.

And it's fun to spin yarns.

Quote:[quote]Just for history's sake:

Dave Arneson was running a recognizable RPG in Blackmoor before Gary started running Greyhawk.

BOTH of these are long before anything at all was published.

Interestingly, the first Blackmoor game was a wargame with a "Good" side and an "Evil" side, each with numerous PCs who had advancement abilities. But that's quite a story in and of itself.

Quote:Re: Old Geezer's take on RPG history.

CROWD: "GEE-ZER! GEE-ZER! GEE-ZER!"

(Steps out onto balcony, arms upraised. Strikes 'Il Duce' pose.)

(Crowd cheers wildly)

Hm.

Mkay, the Internet is a biggie. If Teh Intarweb had been around in 1967, "Chainmail" would have been a set of house rules on a web page.

And so would D&D.

Popular culture is a lot different now from what it was 37 years ago, and of course popular culture influences gaming.

The biggest change I see is that people seem to not understand the attitude of all the very early games -- Original D&D, black box Traveller, even Tunnels and Trolls and whatnot else.

That attitude is, "Here's a set of simple guidelines to build your own world. The rest is up to you, and isn't that grand? Huzzah!" Everybody was a referee, as well as being a player. Building settings and creating your game world was considered the major part of the fun.

Like the review of BLACKMOOR a while back that said it was a fault that the supplement did not discuss how to incorporate the monk into your game world.

That was not a fault, that was a feature. Figuring out how to incorporate the monk was the fun part!!!!!

(Sorry to keep harping on that example, it just happens to perfectly illustrate what I mean.)

The other change is the marginalization of small game companies into what looks like, to me, the ghetto of "indie". Back in the 1975 - 1983 or so time period, there were TONS of new game companies. See, in about 1975 plain-paper xerography became fairly cheap -- so, pretty much ANYBODY with a few bucks could print a hundred copies of "Their Very Own Greatest Game in the Whole Wide World", and pretty much everybody DID. The GenCon dealers' room would be full of one-person enterprises offering everything from game systems to 3d dungeons.

Yeah, the production values were often marginal -- my Dungeon Tiles are Masonite floors and chipboard walls, painted grey with stone patterns silkscreened on.

But the guy selling them was REALLY ENTHUSIASTIC.

But there wasn't this "Big Companies Or Indie Gaming" thing. There were game companies. Some were bigger than others, but there were just game companies.

I suppose that's partly cost; I expect that every guy with "Yet Another Fantasy Heartbreaker" can't afford a table at Gen Con, and that would also tend to make the Forge folks, for instance, share table space.

But I really, really miss the days of wandering through UW Parkside gym (the dealer's room) and finding table after table of one-person, one-product companies. You never knew WHAT you were going to find. Much was not very good, and even more was presented amateurishly, at best. But it was done with PASSION.

And that's maybe what I miss more than anything -- the PASSION. Ron Edwards is probably a very smart guy, but reading his writing does NOT make me jump up and down and scream "THIS IS SO FUCKING COOL!!"

First edition Traveller did. "This is Free Trader Beowulf... Mayday, Mayday..."

Now, THAT's cool!

Quote:Things Gary didn't like didn't end up in Gary's game.

Not to say they weren't in others' games. Gary's notes on his version of Dave's game is just what got published.

Quote:I played for 3 years with Gary Gygax and made it to 9th level. Rob Kuntz made it to, I think, 14th level with Robilar, and he played more often and more years. EDIT: About once per week.

I don't think anybody ever made it even that high in Blackmoor.

Quote:Re: Poll: Should there be firearms in D&D?

You know, Dave Arneson's "Blackmoor" had firearms.

The premise was his friends were teleported to Blackmoor. After several years, they had reached the level of black powder cap and ball revolvers.

One shot per turn, range about 60 feet, did 1d6 damage, roll a d6 per shot, on a 1 it misfires, on a 6 it blows up in your hand doing 1d6 for every round left.

Reloading happened "overnight".

Nice to have, but hardly a game breaker. Not when a 6th level wizard could drop a 6d6 fireball on the whole party from 240 yards away.

And larger field guns and the like were just targets. Especially if the bad guy had a few subdued dragons working for him.

Quote:Rick Snider was one of Dave Arneson's original Blackmoor players, so yeah, that would be EXTREMELY appropriate.

Quote:Blackmoor was very much "characters in an uneasy alliance" play experience. EDIT: And as far as Braunstein, don't forget that all these folks were dedicated "Diplomacy" players.

And yeah, Dave is a SUPER bad-ass player.

You'd never know it talking to him out of context. Sweetest guy in the world.

And then at the gaming table, he suddenly eats your spleen.

Quote:Okay, now I read it.

That is PURE Dave Arneson.

Years ago, Dave was involved in the playtest of a SF boardgame. "Bug Eyed Monsters from Outer Space (They Want Our Women)", I believe.

I remember it involved monsters trying to steal human women. That much I do know.

Dave noticed that the aliens lost huge amounts of points for killing a human female.

He also noticed that the only thing an alien could do to a human with a gun, was kill it.

SO...

He gave all the weapons to the women, had them form a skirmish line, and retreat in good order out of the town, protecting all the men behind the line as they retreated. The women had lousy combat abilities, but it didn't matter... killing any of them would cost the aliens the game.

The publisher changed the rules.

Quote:Keep two things in mind:

1) The OD&D rules are Gary's and Dave's cobbled-together original rules, VERY rough around the edges. If you're looking for something that's fairly detailed, to run out of the box, it's not there (in 1974).

2) These rules are wide-open for a DM and players to add whatever they want. The goal would be to be minimalist, only adding what is desired at the time, and not worrying about the rest.

3) Most everything is resolved with either a d20 roll, or a d6 roll. In the first book, there are three classes, and three races (fighting man, magic-user, cleric, and human, elf, and dwarf). Each has certain abilities, but only one or two per class and race.

4) For obvious reasons, an OD&D game is RIDICULOUSLY easy for a group of people to roll up some characters in 15 minutes, equip themselves, and just go. If 3rd edition were Starfleet Battles, OD&D would be like checkers. You have maybe a dozen stats to keep track of, if that. Monsters have maybe six or eight stats.



Wow, that's a great summary.

#1 is spot on. If you know what a RPG is, you can read the Brown Box edition and know how to play. A lot of people used to things like AH and SPI games got stymied, though.

#2 is also very, VERY important. Really, that's the whole crux; that's what makes OD&D OD&D, and that's what I like about it. Only the absolute, bare bones minimum of character advancement, combat tables, saving throws, monster stats, and treasures is there. This was deliberate; the mindset is that building a world is FUN.

If you can live with #1, and are excited by the thought of #2, then you'll like OD&D.

Quote:My name is Michael Mornard.

I was one of Gary's original playtest group in Greyhawk 1972-1977 or so.

I was also a regular player in Dave Arneson's "Blackmoor". This makes me the only person to ever be a regular in both games.

One of my Minnesota players was Prof. M.A.R. "Phil" Barker. After playing a bit of D&D with us, he disappeared for about six weeks and came back with the first draft of "Empire of the Petal Throne."

I put Phil in touch with Gary.

While I was helping Phil find artists for EPT, I met Dave Sutherland. I introduced him to Phil, and later encouraged him to send a portfolio to Gary.

His drawing "A Paladin in Hell" was modeled after a real 15th century harness of armor he copied from my copy of Claude Blair's "European Armor" sometime in 1976, I think.

I also taught D&D to Adrian Morgan, who then taught it to Steve Brust.

Quote:The first PCs in Dave Arneson's Blackmoor played themselves.

And they still meet once a year and play, 38 years later.

So, yeah, I guess it can work.

Quote:Re: When did you start playing?

1971.

Dave Arneson was running Blackmoor before 1970, IIRC.

Havard Wrote:Thanks!

The above is a mess and there are things missing. I couldnt find the quote where Michael talks about the origin of the Monk class for instance, which I know is there somewhere.

Some basics:

Michael Mornard (Born: 1954?)
He joined Dave Arneson's group in 1971. He was 17 at this time. In the late 1972 he joined Gary Gygax' playtest group. He introduced Phil Barker to D&D and was a player in Barker's Tekumel group. He knows Dave Wesely* and Ross Maker and also knew Dave Sutherland. Michael was the one who introduced Prof. Barker to Gary Gygax.

*Wesely was doing military service from 1970-73 and 76-77, so they problably met between 73-76, unless Mike knew Wesely before that, which seems perhaps unlikely given their age difference (Wesely was born in 1945, so 25 i 1970).



-Havard