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+--- Thread: Is Zugzul Iuz? (/showthread.php?tid=1538)
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Is Zugzul Iuz? - Rafael - 06-28-2013
Hi all,
Quick question: Given the shared history of the two settings, is Zugzul really a stand-in for Greyhawk's Iuz the Evil, or vice versa?
Pondering to use this one for my home game. - So, discuss!
Your benevolent tyrant in retirement,
Rafe
Re: Is Zugzul Iuz? - gsvenson - 06-28-2013
I believe that Zugzul was present in Blackmoor before Greyhawk.
Re: Is Zugzul Iuz? - Rafael - 06-28-2013
Thank you, Greg! That's most interesting, given how similar the concepts really are.
I think - but that's a distant memory from the wold 90s - that Iuz even had some fire witches that served him.
(Or something really similar.)
Re: Is Zugzul Iuz? - Havard - 06-29-2013
Thanks Greg, that is indeed quite interesting.
We know that David Ritchie's wife is attributed to providing more detail on Afridhi culture for DA4. However, this is yet another piece of information on what the pre-DA4 Afridhi were like. We already know that Toska Rusa, Bride of Zugzul was played by Deborah Naffziger from MAR Barker's group.
To be it seems like Iuz could be a good replacement for Zugzul if you want to use Blackmoor in the Greyhawk Setting but really to me the two deities seem to be very different except for the fact that they both are patrons of barbaric empires that want to attack Blackmoor.
Perhaps you could tell us more about Iuz? I honestly don't know that much about him.
-Havard
Re: Is Zugzul Iuz? - Rafael - 06-29-2013
Greg or me?
Iuz is (sort of) a half-demon, who was imprisoned under Castle Greyhawk until he was freed during the Lake Geneva campaign.
he supposedly fled north (!) after that, and assembled an all-star army of evil which he would send against the other countries of the Flanaess,
in the event known as the Greyhawk Wars (which was not part of Gygax' run on D&D, but was heavily insinuated to be an upcoming event).
I think the parallels are obvious, though I would like to see if Iuz was really yet another concept introduced by RJK - Iuz in Greyhawk is essentially the major antagonist of the Great Kingdom.
Re: Is Zugzul Iuz? - Havard - 06-30-2013
Le Noir Faineant Wrote:Iuz is (sort of) a half-demon, who was imprisoned under Castle Greyhawk until he was freed during the Lake Geneva campaign. he supposedly fled north (!) after that, and assembled an all-star army of evil which he would send against the other countries of the Flanaess, in the event known as the Greyhawk Wars (which was not part of Gygax' run on D&D, but was heavily insinuated to be an upcoming event).
Thanks!
The main similarities seem to be the role of an enemy to Blackmoor/Greyhawk. If they were working based on the same concept, it still seems like the two deities were expanded upon individually in the two campaigns. In DA4 identifies Zugzul as a clearly Chaotic deity (Immortal) and not a Demon (he would have been associated with Entropy under Mentzers terms, which he is not) strongly associated with fire and volcanoes. Iuz seems to have a whole other thing going for him in terms of his mythology and background.
Quote:I think the parallels are obvious, though I would like to see if Iuz was really yet another concept introduced by RJK - Iuz in Greyhawk is essentially the major antagonist of the Great Kingdom.
I don't know enough about Greyhawk to comment on this, but it would be interesting to know if any of this is mentioned in Domesday Book #6 or #9 which is what Arneson based his Great Kingdom etc on.
It seems to me that Zugzul was meant to be more of a minor enemy of Blackmoor, while the real enemy is the Egg of Coot. The DA modules seem to shift towards having Zugzul and the Afridhi as the real threat, but I believe that this is only because they were saving the Egg of Coot stuff for DA5 (City of Blackmoor) or possibly a 6th module in the series. Since DA4 was the last module to see the light of day that makes it seem like this is the conclusion of the series.
-Havard
Re: Is Zugzul Iuz? - Rafael - 06-30-2013
Yeah, it sounds like a common concept was used, and then - understandably - developed in different ways.
Tell you what, I'll look further into this! Maybe, indeed, the old Domesday Books etc contain a source that points us to the right answer...
Re: Is Zugzul Iuz? - Havard - 06-30-2013
Checking the fragments of the C&C Society Newsletter that I have access to, it seems that the Newsletter does establish a longstanding enemy for all the members of the Great Kingdom. This enemy is called the Paynim Kingdom. Few details are given on the Paynim Kingdom except that they have a strength of 150% of any of the other kings of the Great Kingdom. Paynim, apparently is a term used in medieval literature to describe Islamic antagonists during the Crusades.
Originally, I thought that references to the Paynim could also include the Peshwa, but I now suspect this is not the case. Greyhawk still has its Plains of the Paymin, but in Blackmoor I suspect that the Paynim evolved into the Afridhi. The FFC mentions The Treasure of the Paynim Princess*. I now believe that the Paynim Princess could be no other than Toska Rusa.
*=Actually the text says Treasure of the Payme Princess which could be either a typo or a pun.
In any case, from what I understand the Paynim of Greyhawk are a different entity than the Kingdom of Iuz, which may be a later addition.
Looking at the Greyhawk map, I notice that the Mountains of Yatil separate the Paynim Kingdom from the Blackmoor region. A parallell to Goblin Kush marking the border against the Afridhi Empire? This would make Perrenland into the Vales? :o
-Havard
Re: Is Zugzul Iuz? - Rafael - 07-01-2013
No time for a long answer - essentially, I agree, and there's more to it, I am sure.
Jeff Perrin's campaign, which was the base for Chainmail, had a Near East/Crusades setting at its end, IRRC. This to become *phantasized*, that's not a big step.
Also, based on Chainmail, Tolkienian Easterlings are proto-Arabs as well. (That would put *Rhun* back on the map.)
The Afridhi, as far as I see it, are a borrowing from Tekumel, though; now the question is, is there a Zugzul, or Iuz, in Tekumel? :twisted:
Re: Is Zugzul Iuz? - Havard - 07-01-2013
Le Noir Faineant Wrote:No time for a long answer - essentially, I agree, and there's more to it, I am sure.
Jeff Perrin's campaign, which was the base for Chainmail, had a Near East/Crusades setting at its end, IRRC. This to become *phantasized*, that's not a big step. Also, based on Chainmail, Tolkienian Easterlings are proto-Arabs as well. (That would put *Rhun* back on the map.)
Cool, I knew nothing about Jeff Perrin's campaign.
Quote:The Afridhi, as far as I see it, are a borrowing from Tekumel, though; now the question is, is there a Zugzul, or Iuz, in Tekumel? :twisted:
I don't see much evidence for it yet, but given that the woman who played Toska Rusa was from Prof Barker's group it seems likely that she brought in some Tekumel-ish ideas. She also played in Gary's games though.
Dungeondevil suggested that the names Peshwa and Afridhi were both Afghan inspired names.
Greg told us that Arneson presented the Afridhi as a kind of devil-worshippers.
-Havard