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+--- Thread: Blackmoor Maps (/showthread.php?tid=348)
- Havard - 04-10-2010
Dave L Wrote:I have just been doing some rough drawings and calculations based on Havard's map - I wanted to know how much space anyone had to leave if they were attempting to link up to Thonia in the south.
It's quite interesting - if you take a standard Wilderlands map (at 5 miles/hex), it turns out that Havard's map is the size of 12.8 WL maps!
What this says to me is that the WL area is really quite small - all 18 maps only cover an area 4.5 times the size of the original Blackmoor map.
I always thought the WL area was huge - simply because there were so many maps, so I did some checking on RW country sizes.
It seems the Blackmoor area has twice the area of Great Britain, and all 18 WL maps combined are just over a quarter of the size of the USA.
So, compared to the size of GB, the maps are big, but compared to the USA, the whole WL is only 3 times the size of Texas.
I suppose it just depends on your perspective, but it will help me to visualize things in my mind while drawing.
This is pretty interesting. I dont remember exactly which method I used for determining the size of the Wilderlands area, but remember that different versions of the Wilderlands operate with different sizes per hex. Apparently Bob Bledsaw himself used 15 miles per hex for his original Wilderlands campaign. More on this here:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=490650&page=3
Havard
- Dave L - 04-10-2010
Havard Wrote:This is pretty interesting. I dont remember exactly which method I used for determining the size of the Wilderlands area, but remember that different versions of the Wilderlands operate with different sizes per hex. Apparently Bob Bledsaw himself used 15 miles per hex for his original Wilderlands campaign. More on this here:I think I saw that thread when I was looking at the whole 12/24 mile confusion between DA1 and DA4. I have to admit I'd never thought of playing a map at a scale different from the one printed on it!
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=490650&page=3
Obviously, change the scale and the sums all change too.
I did think 5 mile per hex was quite a small scale for the main campaign maps. I think it's too big for tactical use though - villages, lairs, forest clearing ambush sites, ruined towers - all those things can fit together in a single 5 mile hex. 1 mile per hex is much better, and even then Thunder Rift looks a little crowded.
Given that, the Mystara maps are only 8 miles/hex and have worked well for years.
Perhaps that's why so many create their own worlds - they can do whatever they like then, and ignore those who don't like it.
Hmm, now there's a thought .... :wink:
- Havard - 04-10-2010
Dave L Wrote:I think I saw that thread when I was looking at the whole 12/24 mile confusion between DA1 and DA4. I have to admit I'd never thought of playing a map at a scale different from the one printed on it!
Agreed. However with the Wilderlands, there seems to have been alot of different takes on the scales. As mentioned the creator of the Wilderlands, Bob Bledsaw used 15 miles per hex. Rob S Conley uses 12.5 miles per hex in his Majestic Wilderlands. All of these with the same map!
In my own case, my goal was to combine Blackmoor, Pre-Cataclysmic Mystara and the Wilderlands. I was less willing to make compromises with the first two settings than I was with the WL. We also considered making the Wilderlands truly huge, making the Wilderlands Sea into the Alphatian Sea, connecting Valon to the Northern Arctic. However, that would not have allowed us to use the Valley of the Ancients as a connection point between Blackmoor and the WL.
Quote:Obviously, change the scale and the sums all change too.
I did think 5 mile per hex was quite a small scale for the main campaign maps. I think it's too big for tactical use though - villages, lairs, forest clearing ambush sites, ruined towers - all those things can fit together in a single 5 mile hex. 1 mile per hex is much better, and even then Thunder Rift looks a little crowded.
Given that, the Mystara maps are only 8 miles/hex and have worked well for years.
Different scales for different purposes of course. 1 mile hexes work best for tactical situations as you say, but they wouldnt be very good for mapping multiple nations, would they?
Quote:Perhaps that's why so many create their own worlds - they can do whatever they like then, and ignore those who don't like it.
Hmm, now there's a thought .... :wink:
Creating your own setting is alot of fun, but I also think there's nothing wrong with making tweaks to published settings. One cool thing about published settings is that you will have an entire community of people online that you can discuss the setting with
Havard
- Rafael - 04-10-2010
Havard Wrote:Creating your own setting is alot of fun, but I also think there's nothing wrong with making tweaks to published settings. One cool thing about published settings is that you will have an entire community of people online that you can discuss the setting with
*Points to secret project, and wags finger.*
- Havard - 04-10-2010
Rafael Wrote:*Points to secret project, and wags finger.*
Ah yes...
Havard
- Dave L - 04-11-2010
I wonder if the two of you could check the "continuity 3" file I've uploaded.
I've upped the scale to 20/24 miles per hex (your choice)
It's quite simple - grey is 1977 Blackmoor, red is Havard's map.
The black rectangles are the size of a Wilderlands map.
I suggest that either Havard or Raphael fills in the spaces round Havard's map to take it to the black lines.
It hopefully also will give you an idea of how to match up to Thonia in the south.
The yellow, blue and green are the possible locations for the Valley of the Ancients Wilderlands map, which I have posted a preview of here.
If the two of you can confer and tell me which location you'd like to use, or how many rectangles west you'd like it moved, then I can make sure I'm not encroaching on plans for the campaign map.
Does that make sense?
- Havard - 04-11-2010
Dave L Wrote:I wonder if the two of you could check the "continuity 3" file I've uploaded.
I've upped the scale to 20/24 miles per hex (your choice)
It's quite simple - grey is 1977 Blackmoor, red is Havard's map.
The black rectangles are the size of a Wilderlands map.
Wow, this is quite cool Dave. This will be very helpful in my future work.
Quote:I suggest that either Havard or Raphael fills in the spaces round Havard's map to take it to the black lines.
Gaah! You make this sound easy. I am working on expanding the map, but rather than just make up stuff, I am trying to figure out what the official sources say about the surrounding lands.
I will see what I can do though, and confer with Rafe. We have had this scheduled for a while actually, but I have been kinda busy...
Havard
- Dave L - 04-11-2010
Havard Wrote:Gaah! You make this sound easy.
Hehe, I know it's not easy - why do you think I suggested you do it?
I know the real world (or a fantasy world) doesn't fit neatly into same-sized blocks - but from a map maker's point of view it would be nice if it did!
- Dave L - 04-12-2010
Oh good grief!
What is the POINT of producing maps that fit together IF THE TERRAIN FEATURES DON'T MATCH!
I've just looked at linking maps 1, 2 and 3 of the WL - the coastlines match pretty accurately, but why do the forests not match? Why does map 2 start a road - that doesn't appear on map 3?
I haven't even looked at north-south linkup yet, only east-west.
What is the point of a coherent campaign spanning 18 maps - if you can't put the maps side by side, or even slightly overlap?
Has no one ever noticed this before?
This problem would have be SO easy to avoid.
Aargghh!
There, I feel better now.
Edit: You can see the sort of thing I'm talking about here, where someone has had the maps printed onto card and laid them out.
Second photo, 3rd sheet down on the left - look at how it matches with the sheet above it - the river matches, but the forests don't.
Then look at the sheet next to it, it doesn't match with either the sheet above or the sheet to the right - the coastline mostly matches, but the forests and even the river don't. Sloppy.
- isomage - 04-15-2010
As the author of the HexGIMP script that Dave L has been using I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of the impressed. That's top-notch work, Dave, and so's your Wilderlands stuff -- my hat would be off to you if I had one