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Re: Blackmoor reading list - Rafael - 01-21-2011
Havard Wrote:Confirmed:
Robert Heinlein
Robert Adams (Horseclans Series)
Robert E. Howard (and DeCamp/Carter Conan pastiches)
JRR Tolkien
Poul Anderson (Dave really liked those regenerating Trolls)
John Norman (aka Dr. John Langue)
Star Trek TOS
Homer's Illiad and Odyssey
Godzilla/Monster B-movies
Kung Fu Movies
Okay, if we go through that list, that's authors, not works. :wink:
Which of their works in concrete would be of interest, then?
For example, I've never read anything by Poul Anderson. Where do the trolls come from?
Quote:Frank Herbert (Greg also confirms this)
Fritz Leiber (seems even more likely after recent discoveries)
HP Lovecraft (according to Jeff Berry as an inspiration for Frogfolk)
Clark Ashton Smith (Tsaothoggua as inspiration for the deity behind the Frog?)
Michael Moorcok
Edgar Rice Burroughs
Again, which books in concrete, would be my question?
Quote:As Greg once pointed out, fantasy and sci fi literature was not very common back in the 70s. Fans of those genres were stuck with ready whatever they could get hold of. This might be one reason why the list seems limited. OTOH, it is certainly possible that there are sources we have overlooked.
Really?! I mean, granted I was still, errh, existing only in concept during those years, but wasn't the late 60s and the 70s the big day of Sci-Fi and fantasy?!
Quote:I agree that connecting the authors with specific elements can be useful where possible.
That is exactly what I am after.
Quote:I am no expert, but I am wondering how much Moorcock influence there would be at all? The main legacy from Moorcock is the Law/Chaos axis, which IIRC Arneson did not start using untill much later. That and perhaps the idea of dragon riders?
And, obviously Moorcok the Slayer, the idea of magic items with a soul for their own, and so on.
I read the Elric stuff a while back, as well as some later Moorcock, and instinctively, I would say he was a big influence on classic D&D. - Yet, that was so long ago that I can't really recall what exactly. - For example, the pirates Elric sails with against Melnibone, aren't they also some sort of proto-vikings?
Also, in my perception, Sir Fang is pretty much Elric.
Quote:I dont know if these need to be one or the other, most likely the idea of frogmen appealed to Arneson and he took ideas from various authors who had used the concept before. Complicating things even more, these authors probably stole from eachother as well.
Yeah, of course.
That there are literary sources for some stuff doesn't mean that there is a concrete source for everything.
Quote:I have heard Riverworld mentioned in some internet discussions, but beyond that I am not sure. I have never read any of his works personally so I cannot comment.
He wrote a few other fantasy novels, for example "Dark is the Sun", that kind of cling to the style of fantasy in the Horseclan books, so I wondered if he could be a resource as well.
Quote:"As far as books go, fantasy books, science fiction/fantasy books that inspired me, we’re talking about Poul Anderson, Robert Heinlein, and a lot of the other authors, like the author of the Horse Clans series. (Robert Adams) Gary [Gygax] Seems to have listed every book he’s ever read in his bibliography, and I’ll be blunt, I don’t think I’ve read a lot of those books."
That is a great start!
Re: Blackmoor reading list - Rafael - 01-21-2011
Overall, I again feel like I should apologize; I am using a pseudo-scientific attitude to build my reasons for disagreeing with you.
Basically, I think twe should make a distinction between:
1. Confirmed sources, by the author, or by other people close to him.
2. Likely sources, for which we find evidence within the written work, like, say matching character and location names, direct or indirect quotes, etc.)
3. Possible sources, which we consider likely, but have no hard evidence for.
As to the lists in concrete, I'll try to put up omething tomorrow.
Re: Blackmoor reading list - aldarron - 01-22-2011
Rafael Wrote:Aldarron Wrote:Ah, well I think the horror movies that Dave loved are too easily glossed over when one thinks of sources. Blackmoor castle in its abandoned state, "feels" not unlike Dracula's castle - an abandoned ediface on a rocky outcrop filled with ghosts and with a creepy old dungeon ruled by a vampire (Sir Fang).
There's also the "van Helsing" model used to create the Cleric class - both being doctors/healers who hunt and destroy unlife.
Isn't that a bit far fetched? I mean, there are so many vampires throughoutliterary history, it doesn't really have to be that particular one.
The same goes for Van Helsing as a model for clerics. Possible, but not demanding a conenction.
Well, no, when you consider this is 1970 and the american midwest we are talking about. There really were no other famous vampires or vampire stories. Dracula was it. That was the time frame when the Christofer Lee Dracula was so influential on the image of vampires, although Bela Lugosi sort of laid that ground work. (Lee of course later being brought in for nostalgia roles in Lotr and Star Wars - brilliant performances both.) And of course, Arneson said he was influenced by the horror movies he loved.
As for the van helsing model of the cleric, here is what Mike Mornard said about it
"Then there was Dave Arneson’s first miniatures/roleplaying campaign. Some players were ‘good guys’ and some players were ‘bad guys’ and Dave was the referee.
One of the ‘bad guys’ wanted to play a Vampire. He was extremely smart and capable, and as he got more and more experience he got tougher and tougher.
This was the early 70s, so the model for ‘vampire’ was Christopher Lee in Hammer films. No deep folklore .
Well, after a time, nobody could touch Sir Fang. Yes, that was his name.
To fix the threatened end of the game they came up with a character that was, at first, a ‘vampire hunter’. Peter Cushing in the same films.
As the rough specs were drawn up, comments about the need for healing and for curing disease came up.
Ta da, the “priest” was born. Changed later to ‘cleric’."
Note that Mike Carr's priests churrch is called the church of the facts of LIFE, and that priests could from the start turn UNLIFE. I think it was a pretty deliberate dichotomy based on van helsing.
I'll try to dig up a some better info on those dune parrallels tommorow if I can.
Re: Blackmoor reading list - finarvyn - 01-22-2011
Aldarron Wrote:The Gor books (first three) were obviously influential as was Robert adams Horseclan novels.The Gor books get a lot of heat nowadays because of the style that the series eventually took, but there is no doubt that the early Gor books are at-heart somewhat classic "sword and planet" style stories. As far as which books, exactly, I just checked and book #3 came out in 1969 so at least the first three would have been out there for Dave to read. (#8 was pubished in 1974, so if we pin down a specific date we could decide which books were "in" or "out".) And we know that Gor had a direct influence on Blackmoor because of (1) tarns, and (2) white/red silk slave girls. Both are in the FFC.
The Horseclans novels are harder to pin down, because they seem more of a philosopical inspiration rather than a direct "copy-paste" of a setting into Dave's world. Indeed, Coming of the Horseclans (book #1 of the series) was published in 1975, so it couldn't have had any direct impact on early Blackmoor development.
Re: Blackmoor reading list - finarvyn - 01-22-2011
Rafael Wrote:And which works in concrete?Try to keep in mind that there may not be an answer to this question. If, for example, Dave read the Elric books by Michael Moorcock (and we'd first want to determine which books were out pre-1971 or so) he might not have taken any single person or event from the books as much as he might have taken a mind-set of dark fantasy, hero doesn't always get the girl, bad things happen to good people, or whatever.
In the case of Elric, however, I suspect that Stormbringer was a major inspiration for the magic swords matrix. While there had been famous swords prior to Stormbringer (Excalibur, for example) none were to my recollection sentient and conveying powers to the user.
Re: Blackmoor reading list - finarvyn - 01-22-2011
Havard Wrote:Fritz LeiberHavard, are you kidding me?
I haven't read any of Leibers Lankhmar novels, but I know they deal with rogue-ish characters and are generally city based adventures.
hock: Your homework is to track down at least one F&GM story and read it. There will be a quiz!
I suggest Swords Against Death (collection 1970, expanded and revised from Two Sought Adventure 1957)
1. "The Circle Curse" (1970, first publication)
2. "The Jewels in the Forest" (novelette 1939 Unknown, as "Two Sought Adventure")
3. "Thieves' House" (novelette 1943 Unknown)
4. "The Bleak Shore" (1940 Unknown)
5. "The Howling Tower" (1941 Unknown)
6. "The Sunken Land" (1942 Unknown)
7. "The Seven Black Priests" (novelette 1953 Other Worlds)
8. "Claws from the Night" (novelette 1951 Suspense as "Dark Vengeance")
9. "The Price of Pain-Ease" (1970, first publication)
10. "Bazaar of the Bizarre" (novelette 1963 Fantastic)
Maybe skip over "The Circle Curse" since it's clearly a later add-on. The neat thing about this volume is that it's a bunch of short stories so they're fast reading, and that most of the stories in this volume harken back to the 1940's and 1950's. If you can't find it, PM me and I'll see what I can do to hook you up with something.
In my opinion, F&GM were OD&D before OD&D was written!
Re: Blackmoor reading list - finarvyn - 01-22-2011
Havard Wrote:As with Horseclans, one must check dates. Thieves World was first published in 1979, which means it can't have had any impact on the 1971 campaign.Quote:Rather than that, I'd like to know the impact of stuff he actually is sure to have known - like, probably "Thieves World", given the AiF angle, or stuff he directly references to, like the Beagle.I'm not really familiar with Thieves World at all, so I can't comment much. Seems likely though.
Indeed, my copy of Adventures in Fantasy is listed as 1978, which suggests that unless Dave perfected time travel Thieves World couldn't have had an impact on AiF, either.
The problem we encounter for most of this is that from 2011 we look back and say "dang, those books are old -- they go back to the 1970's" and we forget that Blackmoor was created somewhere around 1971. This means that we have to dig back into the 1960's and before for most of our inspiration. While I'm sure there were lots of old fantasy stories going around, the most popular had to include:
- Robert E. Howard's Conan (although probably the DeCamp/Carter edits and not pure REH)
- Leiber's Lankhmar
- Moorcock's Elric
- Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings"
- Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions" along with "The Broken Sword"
- Norman's Counter-Earth (Gor) Books
- Lovecraft (one of the few really popular horror authors over the ages) and other classics of horror, perhaps Stoker's Dracula and Shelby's Frankenstein
- Mythology (lots of Greek and Norse)
Re: Blackmoor reading list - finarvyn - 01-22-2011
Rafael Wrote:Temple of the Frog: Cthulhu, or frogmen from 1930s vintage fantasy books? (I think Edgar Rice Burroughs did them already.)I can't recall ERB using frog creatures, but certainly Robert E Howard filled his horror with "toad like creatures" and things like that. Lovecraft probably did as well.
My understanding is that much of the "Temple of the Frog" inspiration came from a frog-shaped planter or some sort of prop that Dave used as a visual aid when he ran the game. (Kind of like using a bowl as a miniature for the gaming table.)
Re: Blackmoor reading list - Rafael - 01-22-2011
Aldarron Wrote:Well, no, when you consider this is 1970 and the american midwest we are talking about. There really were no other famous vampires or vampire stories.
Really? - Again, I wasn't born then, and the lands of my parents had a very different media culture, but I'd say that by 1970, there were more than enough other examples for Vampire-ish characters. Namely (using wiki for convenience):
The Giaour by Lord Byron (1813)
Varney the Vampire or The Feast of Blood by James Malcolm Rymer (or Thomas Peckett Prest) (1847)
The Lair of the White Worm by Bram Stoker (1911)
"The Dark Castle" (1931) by Marion Brandon
"The Girl with the Hungry Eyes" (1949) by Fritz Leiber
I Am Legend by Richard Matheson (1954)
'Salem's Lot by Stephen King (1975)
And that, leaving out movie interpretations like Nosferatu, the Omega-Man (based on I Am Legend),
all the sci-fi b-movies featuring vampires, all the magazine short stories, all the comic books, comic strips,
and so on...
Quote:This was the early 70s, so the model for ‘vampire’ was Christopher Lee in Hammer films. No deep folklore .
Just so you get me right, I don't think you're wrong. I just think pinning it to Dracula is very, very difficult.
Of the rating I use, I would give Dracula a (2) or a (3), in the sense that an influence is likely, but not exactly provable by evidence. - Unless I miss something.
Quote:As the rough specs were drawn up, comments about the need for healing and for curing disease came up.
Ta da, the “priest” was born. Changed later to ‘cleric’."
That is one of the things I find most interesting:
Where does this concept stem from, that priests can heal by magic, and turn undead?
Who was the first author that had such characters?
Re: Blackmoor reading list - Rafael - 01-22-2011
finarvyn Wrote:Havard Wrote:As with Horseclans, one must check dates. Thieves World was first published in 1979, which means it can't have had any impact on the 1971 campaign.Quote:Rather than that, I'd like to know the impact of stuff he actually is sure to have known - like, probably "Thieves World", given the AiF angle, or stuff he directly references to, like the Beagle.I'm not really familiar with Thieves World at all, so I can't comment much. Seems likely though.
Yepp. I think any books released later than 1975 (DA himself named the Horseclan series, mind you) do not need to be taken into consideration.
For consistency's sake, I would say we don't name any book written before the end of WWI (1918/1919), to facilitate a distinction between what might be possible direct literary sources (Howard, Moorcock, Leiber), and what might have been simply a response to the common media tropes of the time (like, Dracula-ish vampires, mutants, spaceships, etc).