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+--- Thread: Nystul and the Duchy of Ten (/showthread.php?tid=933)
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Re: Nystul and the Duchy of Ten - Havard - 03-30-2013
Hi Aegir,
thanks for letting us know about this unfortunate news.
I found some more information on Mike Nystul's blog:
Mike Nystul Wrote:So here we are. I have three (yes, three) Kickstarters and no resources to do it. I made just about every mistake in the book and made up a few of my own. I fucked up. Simple as that.
He does go on to say that he still wants to get back and finalize the projects however.
My question is: Doesn't kickstarter prevent this sort of thing from happening? If the projects arent finalized, people get their money back, right?
-Havard
Re: Nystul and the Duchy of Ten - Aegir - 03-30-2013
Havard Wrote:Doesn't kickstarter prevent this sort of thing from happening? If the projects arent finalized, people get their money back, right?
In theory, yes. But its like filing a lawsuit against someone with no money: you could win the case, but don't expect to see the money. If he doesn't have the funds to complete the projects, I doubt he has the funds to refund peoples money.
Re: Nystul and the Duchy of Ten - Big Mac - 04-02-2013
Aegir Wrote:Havard Wrote:Doesn't kickstarter prevent this sort of thing from happening? If the projects arent finalized, people get their money back, right?
In theory, yes. But its like filing a lawsuit against someone with no money: you could win the case, but don't expect to see the money. If he doesn't have the funds to complete the projects, I doubt he has the funds to refund peoples money.
Actually the answer to Havard's first question is "no" not "yes", as per Kickstarter Basics: Accountability:
Kickstarter Basics: Accountability Wrote:Who is responsible for completing a project as promised?
It's the project creator's responsibility to complete their project. Kickstarter is not involved in the development of the projects themselves.
Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it.
That is Kickstarter legally washing their hands of any responsibility to ever refund anyone. Essentially they are blaming the customers for backing projects that fail.
Then they say this:
Kickstarter Basics: Accountability Wrote:How do backers know if a project will follow through?
Launching a Kickstarter is a very public act, and creators put their reputations at risk when they do.
Backers should look for creators who share a clear plan for how their project will be completed and who have a history of doing so. Creators are encouraged to share links and as much background information as possible so backers can make informed decisions about the projects they support.
If a creator has no demonstrable experience in doing something like their project or doesn't share key information, backers should take that into consideration. Does the creator include links to any websites that show work related to the project, or past projects? Does the creator appear in the video? Have they connected via Facebook?
Don't hesitate to request information from a creator. You can always reach out before pledging via the "Contact me" button on the project page.
Essentially their attitude is that if Mike Nystul's project gets into trouble, they have no obligation to help him and the fact that he may feel like he has let fans down is his own problem. From what I can see Mike has ticked all the boxes for showing that he has done stuff like this before and is in touch with fans, so how could anyone anticipate he would get in trouble? Essentially it is the fault of the backers for not giving Mike the third degree about how he was planning to run his project.
Here is their proceedure for what happens if a project hits problems:
Kickstarter Basics: Accountability Wrote:What should creators do if they're having problems completing their project?
If problems come up, creators are expected to post a project update (which is emailed to all backers) explaining the situation. Sharing the story, speed bumps and all, is crucial. Most backers support projects because they want to see something happen and they'd like to be a part of it. Creators who are honest and transparent will usually find backers to be understanding.
It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.
If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.
As you said, if he has used up the money, he probably isn't going to be able to offer refunds. He could publish his accounts and show how the money got used, but that isn't going to get anyone the products they were promised.
Here is Kickstarter's answer to Havard's second question:
Kickstarter Basics: Accountability Wrote:Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
So "a failure to do so may result in legal action" but not from Kickstarter. They already have their commission. They don't care. And here is where they start to prove they don't care:
Kickstarter Basics: Accountability Wrote:Can Kickstarter refund the money if a project is unable to fulfill?
No. Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds as transactions are between backers and creators, and creators receive all funds (after fees) soon after their campaign ends. Creators have the ability to refund backers through Amazon Payments (for US projects) and Kickstarter (for UK projects).
Essentially, they are saying. Ask the creator for a refund. This question should really be "Will Kickstarter refund the money...", because technically they can put money back into your bank account. They just choose not to. If that is the deal, that is the deal, but they are being misleading if they say they can not offer a refund, as backers set up accounts via their payment system.
Creators "have the ability to refund backers", but clearly if the project goes totally down the toilet, they are not going to be able to offer a full refund. So this is nonsense. Creators have the facility to offer a refund, but don't really have the ability unless they still have the money. So the only way I can see a refund getting issued is if a creator does something like break their arm and they decide to pull the plug on the project rather than ask their backers to wait until they are able to get back to work.
Under the sort of circumstances that happened here, this is just Kickstarter's way of saying: "Not our problem. Go talk to the creator about your problems."
Here is the bottom line:
Kickstarter Basics: Accountability Wrote:Why can't Kickstarter guarantee projects?
We started Kickstarter as a new way for creators and audiences to work together to make things. The traditional funding systems are risk-averse and profit-focused, and tons of great ideas never get a chance. We thought Kickstarter could open the door to a much wider variety of ideas and allow everyone to decide what they wanted to see exist in the world.
Kickstarter is full of ambitious, innovative, and imaginative ideas. Many of the projects you see on Kickstarter are in earlier stages of development and are looking for a community to bring them to life. The fact that Kickstarter allows creators to take risks and attempt to create something new is a feature, not a bug.
This is "a feature, not a bug". Kickstarter allows creators to take risks, but it allows them to take risks with the money belonging to backers.
Essentially, if you "back" a RPG project on Kickstarter, you are not "buying something". You are gambling.
It's a real shame this project went wrong. I didn't back this, but I would have wanted to know what was in it and might well have wanted to buy a copy.
I wonder if the backers could work with Mike on a plan to salvage something out of this. Perhaps if it could be brought to the commercial PDF stage and go up somewhere like DriveThru RPG, the profits could be ringfenced, to either give backers a partial-refund for the bits they didn't get or maybe to go into a fund to eventually pay for any dead-tree rewards to start going out.
Re: Nystul and the Duchy of Ten - Havard - 04-03-2013
Thanks for filling me in on how Kickstarter works. I guess I there was a lot I didn't know about that. Mike Nystul seems intent on getting the kickstarter projects back on track. I hope he succeeds.
This thread was really about the Wizard Nystul. If anyone has more ideas on how to make use of this character, go ahead and post on that too!
-Havard
Re: Nystul and the Duchy of Ten - Big Mac - 04-20-2013
Havard Wrote:Thanks for filling me in on how Kickstarter works. I guess I there was a lot I didn't know about that. Mike Nystul seems intent on getting the kickstarter projects back on track. I hope he succeeds.
Sorry for the off-topic diversion. I didn't know a lot of that either, but I've been uncomfortable about the over-optimistic way that Kickstarter has been plugged for a while.
Mike Nystul seems like he is actually a really great guy, so I'm hoping that he can turn this around, at some point. I wasn't a backer, but I'm guessing that any products containing the Wizard Nystul will be things that both Greyhawk and Blackmoor fans can raid ideas from.
Havard Wrote:This thread was really about the Wizard Nystul. If anyone has more ideas on how to make use of this character, go ahead and post on that too!
Looking at the existing Greyhawk canon could maybe give us some inspiration. The Great Library of Greyhawk has a pretty good article on Nystul.
The Great Library of Greyhawk also has an article for the Duchy of Tehn. There is a bit less detail on that page, so far, but it does have links to articles that deal with locations in Tehn, so maybe that might help to work out how they would interact with Nystul or elements of Greyhawk's Blackmoor.