+- The Comeback Inn (https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums)
+-- Forum: The Garnet Room - Blackmoor General Forum (https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=34)
+--- Forum: General Blackmoor Discussions (https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Thread: Peshwa literary origins (/showthread.php?tid=648)
Re: Peshwa literary origins - Havard - 04-20-2014
finarvyn Wrote:Wikipedia (not always the best source) seems to indicate that HEAVY METAL magazine had a debut in 1977, so if there are Horseclan books serialized there they probably aren't the first ones.
That still puts the date of Horseclans after the events listed in FFC.
Good to have that clarified then. Now I have no reason to try to hunt down more information on these magazines.
Thanks Fin!
-Havard
Re: Peshwa literary origins - Rafael - 04-20-2014
Raphael Pinthus Wrote:http://www.oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/c8vd708n/
In case you indeed overread it, this is the place to start.
Re: Peshwa literary origins - gsvenson - 04-20-2014
I honestly don't know where the inspiration for the Peshwa came from, but I know that they were present earlier then 1975. It could have simply been reading the history of the American Indians.
Re: Peshwa literary origins - Havard - 04-21-2014
gsvenson Wrote:I honestly don't know where the inspiration for the Peshwa came from, but I know that they were present earlier then 1975. It could have simply been reading the history of the American Indians.
What you are saying makes sense Greg. Arneson used many other historical groups as well, such as Vikings, Picts, Nomads etc. The Peshwa are mentioned in the earliest parts of the FFC, in the Egg of Coot Scenario
DungeonDevil has suggested that the name Peshwa could be derived from a Central Asian term. In the Mystara group, it was speculated that could also be a variant of a Native American word.
-Havard
Re: Peshwa literary origins - finarvyn - 04-21-2014
Havard Wrote:I'm still curious, however. I like to read short story versions of things that later become good books, just to see what they looked like in their early versions.finarvyn Wrote:Wikipedia (not always the best source) seems to indicate that HEAVY METAL magazine had a debut in 1977, so if there are Horseclan books serialized there they probably aren't the first ones.Good to have that clarified then. Now I have no reason to try to hunt down more information on these magazines.
That still puts the date of Horseclans after the events listed in FFC.
I can't find out much at all about these horseclan stories. Except that they seem to be after the FFC, that is.
If anyone knows more I'd like more information.
Re: Peshwa literary origins - Rafael - 04-21-2014
Raphael Pinthus Wrote:Raphael Pinthus Wrote:http://www.oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/c8vd708n/
In case you indeed overread it, this is the place to start.
finarvyn Wrote:Havard Wrote:I'm still curious, however. I like to read short story versions of things that later become good books, just to see what they looked like in their early versions.finarvyn Wrote:Wikipedia (not always the best source) seems to indicate that HEAVY METAL magazine had a debut in 1977, so if there are Horseclan books serialized there they probably aren't the first ones.Good to have that clarified then. Now I have no reason to try to hunt down more information on these magazines.
That still puts the date of Horseclans after the events listed in FFC.
I can't find out much at all about these horseclan stories. Except that they seem to be after the FFC, that is.
If anyone knows more I'd like more information.
AM I INVISIBLE? DO YOU GUYS HAVE ME ON IGNORE? ARE YOU PUZZLED BY THE LINK ABOVE CONSISTING OF NUMBERS, LETTERS, AND SYMBOLS?
![[Image: Der-unglaubliche-Hilk-1.gif]](http://www.woebbel-power.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Der-unglaubliche-Hilk-1.gif)
Re: Peshwa literary origins - Rafael - 04-21-2014
More seriously, Adams definitely published some stuff BEFORE 1975; but mind you that my original quote was from 2011.
That was two computers, four (not kidding) house moves, and one operating system ago.
Now, judging from how US publishing worked by then, if in doubt, I'd look for in-house magazines from Pinnacle Books, or Signet Publishing
(which is kind of a misnomer), because that's how people gave sneak peaks of possible book projects, back then.
In another sort of retrospect, I would assume that the quote by Arneson is unreliable: What people today do not know is that Robert Adams,
until his untimely death, like Robert Asprin, was considered one of the most progressive and creative writers in his field.
"Horse Clans" was one of the best-selling series of the time, virtually the only even remotely popular Swords & Planets series around:
That Arneson named him is more of a general statement that shows that he was really into the genre. Gygax, and that is not a jab,
never goes this deep when asked for his fantasy reading.
As to the name "peshwa", well, I think the Asian name origin is the most probable option. Why?
Because the term is used in context with Napoleonic war gaming. India-based scenarios like the Maratha Wars, concerning a territory where the term "peshwah" was used for headpeople of horserider clans (!!!),
were played out with the same rules, and drew on the same resources that Europe-based campaigns did. Someone more into it than me can
pinpoint you directly to a couple of sources Arneson likely had access to. - That, plus the proximity to Tekumel, plus the relative popularity
of colonial Indian fiction in the late 60s.
Now, where Adams comes in with the Horseclans again: The series, which I read in part, mind you, has a plot about an immortal, IIRC, in search for a spaceship, or something alike.
I never specifically cared about DA3, and the whole City of Gods arc, but, hey, St Stephen and the spaceship, not that of a far call.
Was CoG not something post-FFC? At least in the parts that were published, and in the way the scenario was run for Kuntz and Gygax?
Re: Peshwa literary origins - Rafael - 04-21-2014
Yes, indeed, it's 3 AM here. I think I need to cut on coffee, and on working hours.
Three hours more to go, expect more increasingly crazy ramblings.
Re: Peshwa literary origins - Havard - 04-22-2014
Raphael Pinthus Wrote:AM I INVISIBLE? DO YOU GUYS HAVE ME ON IGNORE? ARE YOU PUZZLED BY THE LINK ABOVE CONSISTING OF NUMBERS, LETTERS, AND SYMBOLS?
Hehe sorry Rafe. I took a look at the link, but could not find anything. That place appears to be massive though so it will take some time searching through. I appreciate the link though
Raphael Pinthus Wrote:As to the name "peshwa", well, I think the Asian name origin is the most probable option. Why?
Going with Arneson's tradition of battle field names, we do have the Battle of Peshawar.
Quote:Because the term is used in context with Napoleonic war gaming. India-based scenarios like the Maratha Wars, concerning a territory where the term "peshwah" was used for headpeople of horserider clans (!!!), were played out with the same rules, and drew on the same resources that Europe-based campaigns did. Someone more into it than me can pinpoint you directly to a couple of sources Arneson likely had access to.
Sources? Links?
Quote:Now, where Adams comes in with the Horseclans again: The series, which I read in part, mind you, has a plot about an immortal, IIRC, in search for a spaceship, or something alike.
Milo, founder of the Horseclans after World War 3 was immortal, ie he could not die of old age. I havent found anything about a spaceship though.
Quote:I never specifically cared about DA3, and the whole City of Gods arc, but, hey, St Stephen and the spaceship, not that of a far call.
City of the Gods is mentioned in The FFC. It appeared towards the end of the campaign, probably around 1975. Several PCs were reported killed in their quests for the city. Arneson ran the City of the Gods scenario for Kuntz and Gygax when he was working for TSR in 1976.
St. Stephen and references to Space Ships appear much earlier in the Blackmoor Campaign of course as they are linked to the Temple of the Frog and Stephen Rocheford (Maybe 1974).
The Peshwa are already around for the Coot Invasions (1972).
-Havard
Re: Peshwa literary origins - Rafael - 04-22-2014
The remarkable thing about this is, I am awake. Still, or, again, I don't know. ...Are those my feet? :x Give me a coffeeeeeeeeee...
hock: Quote:http://www.oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/c8vd708n/entire_text/
Here you have all manuscripts by Robert Adams that presumably still exist from Adams. Mainly from the 1980s. not the 1970s.
No mention of a magazine article, or an entire collection of the original novels; that's why I suggested looking for the publisher.
Let's see... Original publisher was Pinnacle Books, acquired by Kensington Books in 1988.
Then, eventually, after a time of completely falling of the grid, the novels were republished by Mundania Press, in a rather shitty edition, since 2005.
(Those were the books I own, at least in part.)
Now, I also own some books from anthology series from the 70s, like "Flashing Swords", and "Swords Against Darkness", which were arguably among the most famous of the time, and, again, no Adams, no horseclans, and nothing pre-1975.
As I stated earlier, in retrospect, I think the Horseclan-series might have had more of an impact on the DA series, than on Blackmoor itself.
This is from this page giving an overview on the Horseclan series:
http://www.geocities.ws/evilsnack/horse.html
Quote:The Moon Maidens
are a sub-group of Ahrmehnee who occupy a hold in a volcanic valley bordering on the main Ahrmehnee territory. Their society is a strict matriarchy (ruled by a Council of Grandmothers), in which men have been reduced to slavery. The women are either lesbian or celibate, having carnal relations with men only for reproductive purposes. After the Witchmen loot their hold and trigger a volcanic eruption that utterly destroys their entire valley, the Silver Lady instructs the Maidens to abandon both their lesbian and matriarchical ways, and marry into a group of Freefighters and Confederation soldiers that they encounter.
Sounds very much like something one could draw upon for the Afridhi, though I have to confess - I don't remember much from the books, as in, where this is first mentioned. But all of this is post-1975, of course, and how much sense it makes with the origins of Toska Russa that we know about, your call.
Quote:Sources? Links?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Maratha_Wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Maratha_War
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... s#ref79712
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baji_Rao_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshwa
http://www.heritage-history.com/www/her ... hratta.php
No doubt there. If anything pre-FFC-publication is crystal-clear, then this. The article on Peshwa by Wikipedia is unclear, I think - "peshwa" just means "leader", "king", or "chieftain" in Persian. Really, any historical fiction about the area or the ethnic group usually uses the term.
As to where other writers weigh in with Arneson - the only textual references we have from him pre-TSR point to a reception of Tolkien and Moorcock.
All the rest, really, probably not so much Arneson's contribution, but that of the respective players on his table, with every character giving the setting a new spin.
Middle-Eastern-inspired fantasy, by the way, was very popular in the 70s, from Sprague de Camp's "Ishtar Gate" (?), over Moorcock, to Tanith Lee's "Cyrion". - While the use of ME tropes in the DA series might seem overproportional from today's perspective, it was pretty normal around the time, in general.