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+--- Thread: The Afridhi (/showthread.php?tid=478)
- Havard - 10-01-2010
Rafael Wrote:Now, I think even though Havard plays in my game, and we share most ideas about BM, our perception is completely different.
I think the differences are more on the conceptual/philosophical level. In terms of spirit, our perceptions of the setting are not that different IMO.
Quote:To me, Peshwa = Legend of Arslan people, Afridhi = Picts, Thonians = Romans.
In terms of the roles they play, this is not inappropriate. However, to me Picts and Romans dont work too well as analogies beyond that because they represent ancient world cultures rather than medieval ones.
Instead of comparing the Thonians to Romans, I tend to liken them with the Germanic and Italian people of the Holy Roman Empire.
My Peshwa are not that different from what I have seen in Legend of Arslan, but I like to give them a slightly exotic look; generally leaning towards dark eyes, hair, but still probably generally European in appearance.
-Havard
- Rafael - 10-01-2010
Yeah, that's obviously as legit as my approach.
- My reason was, more than anything else, my desire to give Blackmoor a distinctive visual model in my mind.
Means, if I picture BM as LotR, it will become LotR.
If I picture BM as Vampire Hunter D (Steampunk), it will become Vampire Hunter D.
So, I chose a rather unconventional setting, basically Rosemary Sutcliffe's Eagle series,
as an approach to the universe and added everything else up to this base.
Why I chose that visualization? I don't remember any more.
- aldarron - 10-01-2010
Havard Wrote:You ask some highly relevant questions here, Aldarron:
1) Where do the Afridhi come from?
2) How and why has their culture developed into something so different from that of Blackmoor and its neighours?
Your theory of having the Afridhi come from Tekumel is sound, but I am hesitant about weaving Tekumel and Blackmoor together so closely together. One reason for this is because I dont know Tekumel well enough. Another is because AFAIK there is no such thing as Afridhi in Tekumel. A third reason is that I am not sure such an elaborate explanation is neccessary.
Reason one - I'm not very well versed in Tekumel either, but DA and friends certainly did know Tekumel well, and I've seen you freely incorporate stuff from sources DA and Co would have had no knowledge of so I'm thinking its okay to think beyond your comfort zone
Reason two - by name no, but see the end of this post.
Reason three - elaborate? Come now Havard, with all the world jumping, time traveling, and incorporation of Sci Fi, refugees traveling through a gateway from Tekumel is rather typical and run of the mill for Blackmoor it seems to me. Anywho there's already a precedent of an entire ship being transported to Blackmoor from Tekumel as Jeff Berry relates in his Q&A:
""Playing in Blackmoor": Yes, Phil did play in Dave's Blackmoor for a while; the two of them conspired to transport us there in our ship, and we just appeared in Blackmoor Bay one day. Phil wanted to take a break from GM duties, so Dave took over the job of running our Tekumel PCs in his world. Phil played a Livyani character he'd rolled up, and was a very active player. "
Anyway I would also point out that it is very much in keeping with Dave's approach to incorporate the game worlds of your friends and associates (Great Kingdom, Greyhawk, Wilderlands) into Blackmoor
Havard Wrote:Here's how I see it: The heartlands of the Afridhi Empire are far from Blackmoor and even the Duchy of Ten. Goblin Kush lays to the far west, across the Vales from the Duchy of Ten, and Goblin Kush itself is not the Afridhi Heartlands, but rather the mountain that marks the border into the traditional Afridhi Empire. The name Goblin Kush could be one given to the mountain by the Valemen before they learned of the true nature of the people who lived there.
The arrival of the Afridhi to the vicinity of Blackmoor's neighbours is very recent. Untill a few decades ago, noone in Blackmoor had heard of the Afridhi. It was only when their god Zugzul ordered them to march eastwards in order for Toska Rusa to obtain the Well of Souls that the people of Blackmoor began learning of the Afridhi.
Given the 1000+ years of advanced civilization in the north, including the Duchy of the Peaks and the various wizards societies, its impossible a people as exotic as the Afridhi would go unnoted or left to develop in pure isolation. There should also at least be related/varient peoples. Nothing of the sort has ever happened on earth except in the case of island cultures, like Tasmania and Polynesia, but even there people shared cultural and genetic links with thier neighbors.
Havard Wrote:Their strange appearance is certainly unnatural, possibly because they are not really human at all, perhaps related to Fire Giants, but I also like your theory that it could be a result of manipulations from their God.
uh Fire Giant pygmies? Maybe, but I dunno...
On Tekumel, black hair is typical but red hair sometimes occurs. Most people are brown skinned and fairly similar in appearance. There are two exceptions, a somewhat lighter skinned and taller group of people in the far north, and the Nom. Here is the description from the Tekumel Bestiary:
Nom
Nomadic sailors of the great ocean east of Salarvya . An
island archipelago is located there, from whence the Nom
range the seas. Many islands are justcoral atolls, but others
are large enough to support half a hundred families .
The Nom are not encountered anywhere in the Five
Empires, but explorers whohave ventured out to the far
eastern ocean, Farise Isle, Dressa Isle, and the White
Water Shoals report having met the black ships of these
strange people . Racially, the Nom are very distinct: they
have almost jet-black skin, straight hair, and sharp,
triangular faces with long, slightly slanted eyes. At
times their eyes are a red-brown or even an amber gold
in hue. Theylive in societies centred around their ships:
the Captain is the ruler; under him is the warrior caste;
there is a small and relatively powerless caste of priests
and merchants; and at the bottom are the slaves . Each
ship has a home island, where a fortress and "home
crew" (replacements for the ship's personnel) live.
Women accompany their menfolk to sea and have a
powerful say in the society. The males ostensibly rule
the women and marry wives in groups of three (a
religious belief), but women may refuse such a marriage
- or divorce the husband and leave, as they wish.
Premarital sex is permitted, but extra-marital sex is
frowned upon as "shameful." In some ways, thus, the
Nom are the most puritanical of Tekumel's many
societies. Slaves seem to be a separate caste by choice
also; they do not intermarry with the warrior caste and
are quite proud of their status . These people are great
warriors and fashion excellent weapons of bronze,
bone, and obsidian. Armour is made of fish scales .
There are always feuds and piratical raids to take goods,
slaves, and treasure, and the life of a Nom warrior is
sometimes a short one. The Nom have eight major
deities: five males and three females; there are also
minor gods, sacred islands, and a host of spirits and
tabooes. They are good at sorcery but have a very
different concept of it: a Nom sorcerer memorises just
one spell and becomesknownforthatalone. Literature,
history, etc. are all "remembered" with the aid of spellpictures,
and a sorcerer may take his/her name from a
particular spell. Thus, Chari-Nom is the name of a
person who is a "picture" : a person who uses the
picture-spell to create visible, three-dimensional pictures
of places and events . Ka-Nom is a dramatist and
drama historian, who uses a similar spell to "recall"
dramas and present them again. Dre-Nom is an historian,
whose recollections of past events are kept in
pictorial formwith the aid ofa history-picture spell. An
offensive sorcerermaybe named "Flame-Strike" Qhte-
Nm), or "Ship-Shield" (MyC-Nom). Most sorcerers are
concerned with such mundane matters as finding fish,
avoiding storms, etc. The society of the Nom is complex
and deserves further investigation."
Also on Tekumel are a wide range of deities, one of the oldest and most well know is Vimuhla:
"Vimúhla, Lord of Fire, Power of Destruction and Red Ruin,
Maker of Thunders, the All-Cleansing One, are outwardly straightforward: he is that part of each being’s spirit that longs for violence and obliteration, the "simple and direct solution" to problems, the wiping away of all of the encroachments of time and reality by the most direct, pure, and final method: the Flame. Matter and substance are "impure," while raw energy is "pure." The catharsis of annihilation is pleasure, while existence is pain."
according to Barker, "Lord Vimúhla exists in various forms in Salarvyá, Jánnu, Kilalámmu, and the little states of the northeast..... in such places as Tsoléi, the Nyémesel Isles, and other distant lands there are hints of His doctrines in the tenets of the local deities, but no direct correlations."
Zugzul is a dead ringer for a "varient form" of Vimuhla.
I imagine the worship of Zugzul/Vimuhla taking root among priestesses in one of the Nom islands in the Salarvya sea, taking control of the society. I imagine the island is called Afrid. I imagine those islanders sailing forth to other Nom Islands on a mission of conversion and conquest in the name of Zugzul, thier hair turned (or dyed?) fiery red as a mark of devotion to the god of flame. I Imagine a uniting of Nom peoples against the threat. I see Afridhi defeated and Afrid invaded. I see Zugzul opening a gate to a harsh and isolated corner of Blackmoor to save his Priestesses and a few hundred of his followers. I see them dreaming of revenge and conquest again.
- Rafael - 10-01-2010
Basically, to bring things a bit more back on track, I think this is absolutely possible.
I think the possibility exists that the Afridhi and other elements were taken from other settings - we are talking about an era when noone gave a flying duck about canon, mind you.
But why Tekumel alone? - Several of Mr Arneson's players had more than enough side projects; for example, the Snider brothers, with their P&P.
For all we know, the Afridhi could have been taken from anywhere.
...
I would like to put LotR into the equation, though: Easterlings, anyone? :twisted:
- Havard - 10-01-2010
Aldarron Wrote:Reason one - I'm not very well versed in Tekumel either, but DA and friends certainly did know Tekumel well, and I've seen you freely incorporate stuff from sources DA and Co would have had no knowledge of so I'm thinking its okay to think beyond your comfort zone
Good point
Quote:Reason three - elaborate? Come now Havard, with all the world jumping, time traveling, and incorporation of Sci Fi, refugees traveling through a gateway from Tekumel is rather typical and run of the mill for Blackmoor it seems to me.
You are right. Perhaps I was being too conservative here. As I said, the idea is pretty new and the implications are potentially massive, but we can certainly explore this option.
Quote:Anywho there's already a precedent of an entire ship being transported to Blackmoor from Tekumel as Jeff Berry relates in his Q&A:
""Playing in Blackmoor": Yes, Phil did play in Dave's Blackmoor for a while; the two of them conspired to transport us there in our ship, and we just appeared in Blackmoor Bay one day. Phil wanted to take a break from GM duties, so Dave took over the job of running our Tekumel PCs in his world. Phil played a Livyani character he'd rolled up, and was a very active player. "
Yeah, you are right. There are certain things that ocurred in Dave's campaign that I would never used in my own (WWII soldiers in particular), but Tekumel is much more acceptable.
Quote:Anyway I would also point out that it is very much in keeping with Dave's approach to incorporate the game worlds of your friends and associates (Great Kingdom, Greyhawk, Wilderlands) into Blackmoor
True. I guess at some point we should draw the line, but Arneson's connection to Prof Barker is a good argument for your case.
Quote:Given the 1000+ years of advanced civilization in the north, including the Duchy of the Peaks and the various wizards societies, its impossible a people as exotic as the Afridhi would go unnoted or left to develop in pure isolation. There should also at least be related/varient peoples. Nothing of the sort has ever happened on earth except in the case of island cultures, like Tasmania and Polynesia, but even there people shared cultural and genetic links with thier neighbors.
Well, in spite of Blackmoor being founded almost a milennia ago, I still see the North as a pretty uncivilized place. I generall consider the lands beyond the Vales as unknown to even most sages. That said, I do believe that the Afridhi are part of a bigger cultural group, just one that stretches westwards (or southwest) rather than to the east. This could apply even if we use the Tekumel connection.
Quote:uh Fire Giant pygmies? Maybe, but I dunno...
I know, this was my reaction too. But it does seem like the direction that ZG were taking them. The illustrations in DA4 are a little different from those in the D20 material.
Quote:On Tekumel, black hair is typical but red hair sometimes occurs. Most people are brown skinned and fairly similar in appearance. There are two exceptions, a somewhat lighter skinned and taller group of people in the far north, and the Nom. Here is the description from the Tekumel Bestiary:
Good find. Alright, you are on your way of having me convinced here.
Quote:Also on Tekumel are a wide range of deities, one of the oldest and most well know is Vimuhla:
Another good find here. This is very interesting!
Quote:I imagine the worship of Zugzul/Vimuhla taking root among priestesses in one of the Nom islands in the Salarvya sea, taking control of the society. I imagine the island is called Afrid. I imagine those islanders sailing forth to other Nom Islands on a mission of conversion and conquest in the name of Zugzul, thier hair turned (or dyed?) fiery red as a mark of devotion to the god of flame. I Imagine a uniting of Nom peoples against the threat. I see Afridhi defeated and Afrid invaded. I see Zugzul opening a gate to a harsh and isolated corner of Blackmoor to save his Priestesses and a few hundred of his followers. I see them dreaming of revenge and conquest again.
Not bad, not bad! If they are chased from their own land, that would also give them motivation for conquering more land. I like the idea that the Afridhi dye their hair red by the way. And somewhere beyond Goblin Kush, there could be a gate leading back to Tekumel...
-Havard
- Rafael - 10-02-2010
Quote:I imagine the worship of Zugzul/Vimuhla taking root among priestesses in one of the Nom islands in the Salarvya sea, taking control of the society. I imagine the island is called Afrid. I imagine those islanders sailing forth to other Nom Islands on a mission of conversion and conquest in the name of Zugzul, thier hair turned (or dyed?) fiery red as a mark of devotion to the god of flame. I Imagine a uniting of Nom peoples against the threat. I see Afridhi defeated and Afrid invaded. I see Zugzul opening a gate to a harsh and isolated corner of Blackmoor to save his Priestesses and a few hundred of his followers. I see them dreaming of revenge and conquest again.
So, this is something of your making, or somehow Blackmoor lore?
- Havard - 10-02-2010
Rafael Wrote:Quote:I imagine the worship of Zugzul/Vimuhla taking root among priestesses in one of the Nom islands in the Salarvya sea, taking control of the society. I imagine the island is called Afrid. I imagine those islanders sailing forth to other Nom Islands on a mission of conversion and conquest in the name of Zugzul, thier hair turned (or dyed?) fiery red as a mark of devotion to the god of flame. I Imagine a uniting of Nom peoples against the threat. I see Afridhi defeated and Afrid invaded. I see Zugzul opening a gate to a harsh and isolated corner of Blackmoor to save his Priestesses and a few hundred of his followers. I see them dreaming of revenge and conquest again.
So, this is something of your making, or somehow Blackmoor lore?
That's all Aldarron
-Havard
- Havard - 10-02-2010
Rafael Wrote:But why Tekumel alone? - Several of Mr Arneson's players had more than enough side projects; for example, the Snider brothers, with their P&P.
I am certainly interested in exploring cross influences with P&P, both in case of the Afridhi and with Blackmoor in general.
Havard
- Rafael - 10-02-2010
Yeah, I mean, we have Star Frontiers and P&P, both written by some of of Mr Arneson's principal players, and yet, noone is really taking it into consideration.
Also, if there was really a female player for Toska Russa (I forgot where I read this around here), isn't the most logical assumption that SHE made those people up, based on whatever she wanted.
ALSO, sorry to rain your parade, but degenerated humans that have a matriarchy and worship a burning eye?
We have seen this before.
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Black_N% ... C3%B3reans
- aldarron - 10-02-2010
Rafael Wrote:Yeah, I mean, we have Star Frontiers and P&P, both written by some of of Mr Arneson's principal players, and yet, noone is really taking it into consideration.
I wouldn't say noone... I consuluted P&P fairly heavily when working on the DaD rules, when tracing out certain threads of development, particularly magic and combat. But in setting terms you are quite right, we don't draw from it much. I think part of that is that Richard deliberately distanced the setting from Blackmoor. He made it clear the Perilous Lands were not related to Blackmoor (at least in his mind) so I'm not sure how appropriate it would be to draw on that cosmology. I am planning to run his Tower of the Dead as an adventure for my group but I haven't mmade the stat conversions yet.
Rafael Wrote:Also, if there was really a female player for Toska Russa (I forgot where I read this around here), isn't the most logical assumption that SHE made those people up, based on whatever she wanted.
Yep, Deborah Nafziger (sp?), according to Jeff Berry, and but its likely she and Dave concieved the idea together. As an EPT player she likely proposed a EPT like character she was familiar with (priestess) and she and Dave crafted an EPT like background for the character. I'm not suggesting there was a real one to one correlation or that they were consciously thinking of the Nom when making the Afridhi, just that its a nice fit. What I like about the Nom/ZugZul/Vimulha idea I proposed is that it takes a bit of real Twin cities gaming history (EPT player creeating a character for Blackmoor) and turns it into a bit of ingame history.
As I see it Afridhi have some Spartan like elements in their fanatical discipline and superiority complex. I can see their society as being on a constant war footing, with everyone focused on growing the nation. The women, perhaps, take multiple husbands and being rewarded for producing (but not raising) as many children as possible.
Rafael Wrote:ALSO, sorry to rain your parade, but degenerated humans that have a matriarchy and worship a burning eye?
We have seen this before.
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Black_N% ... C3%B3reans
Numenoreans are cool but I'm not seeing much similarity there. Very different mythologies.