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+--- Thread: Tell me about the Iron Duke (/showthread.php?tid=2918)
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Rafael - 12-11-2020
Havard Wrote:I am not familiar with "Markovia" in that form of the name, but the Iron Duke's real name is Taha Marcovic.
(Just FTR, there are one or two other Markovias in D&D; I'm NOT confusing them with this one.)
Markovia, from what I remember, was the Iron Duke's home province, South of the Thonian Rand. I do not remember the source for this info, though. Since, in old wargamer fashion, the FFC featured some places that were "statted out", but never visited, it's possible this one was just a name in some income chart for the heroes, but not a place that otherwise had an impact on the game. - But I'm speculating here. I know the place is likely not of my own creation, because I use the name in the LFC, in 2011, in a thread called "Erdath's Story": viewtopic.php?f=21&t=729
And back then, I wasn't making additions to Blackmoor canon in that kind of the way. So, I doubt I "invented" Markovia for the game.
(The reason why I still have access to this kind of info is that I've been using programs like DocFetcher and Recoll, for some time now, by the way: Global in-document search programs. Maybe that software is worth a look to you guys, too, especially when it comes to investigating this kind of information that really has the character of a footnote.
)Quote:This would absolutely be interesting. We know that Dave kept his annual games going with the original group, but after moving to California (1984?), I don't know who he played with on a more regular basis. In the 1990s he moved to Florida to teach at Full Sail University where he met Dustin Clingman. I am not sure if they played D&D together before they formed Zeitgeist Games in 2004.
Greg's second main character in the Blackmoor game, Sol, seems to predate ZGG-era Blackmoor for a few years. So, apparently, there was both a time jump, and an in-between game.
Quote:DA1 and DA3 provide the best info on the Iron Duke. I actually think this character has tons of potential. He is a military genius and has married into one of the most powerful families of the Empire. He is also ambitious enough that many suspect he is planning to succeed the current Emperor (Iyx). His provess includes highly successful battles against the Skandaharians and the Peshwah. He is also interested in making deals to get technology from the City of the Gods. He has a number of allies and agents deep within Blackmoor. If one wanted to, one could easily run an entire campaign based around him.
- Which is why it seemed so counter-intuitive to me that noone would have used him later on. I understand that the campaign had different goals, and different plots it wanted to curate, but especially with respect to the more mundane, "social-themed" adventures, it almost seemed like a missed opportunity not to use the Iron Duke. (Say, for example, the classic "Ties That Bind" adventure. We have agents of the Egg, there but not agents of the Iron Duke, even though Jackport is a Southern harbor.)
But, yeah, the info on the Iron Duke from the old DA modules is quite extensively. Can't spoil this, but what I'd been looking for, I found it already.
What a treasure, these old modules! - Still so, I'm obviously interested in learning more if we can find something.
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - aldarron - 12-13-2020
Havard Wrote:It seems to me that already before talking to Ritchie, Dave was developing Blackmoor's post FFC timeline. During the FFC Blackmoor is still a part of the Great Kingdom/Thonia and this realm functions as a supporter of "the Good Guys". In the Post-FFC setting on the other hand, Thonia is an adversary. In this context, the Iron Duke, becomes a much more meaningful NPC than he would have been during the FFC era. One question is how closely this post FFC setting is connected to events in Dave's later campaign. Based on Dave's earlier works, it seems likely that this is a combination of actual play experiences, unused ideas etc.
Yeah there are some interesting gaps there. At least a couple DA1 characters come from late Twin Cites gaming (1975+) like Laferie and Veslo, and you get a few more from the Adventure Game days, like Lortz and Fletcher William. Things in Blackmoor may not have develop as quickly or intensely as before, because Blackmoor games were less frequent than other games being playtested at Arnesons company.
Nevetheless I think we get a really good window on to the direction Arenson had taken Blackmoor with the two Garbage Pits of Despair adventures. It seems a sure bet these were originally among the 8 planed "Chronicle" adventures, and may have been the most developed and playtested, which is why Arneson could publish them separately.
So, while the information is limited, comparing what GPoD says about Blackmoor is a useful way to see some of the direction change TSR introduced. GPoD does not present the sort of tension between the Great Kingdom and Blackmoor we see in the DA series. GPoD is based around the idea that Blackmoor regular recruits new settlers from the GK.
Havard Wrote:Quote:It would perhaps be interesting to shed some light on the later-day Blackmoor campaign (post-publication FFC until Arneson's move out of the early 910s until the games simply became fewer, and the different core players started gaming increasingly independently from one another: What had happened until then? Did we see Uther's coronation in-game? Because, if the Afridhi where in Arneson's later games, then that would imply that - Uther was already king, as per DA 1, when they first appeared. - That could give us an idea whether the Iron Duke was part of the original game, or not. (Standard TSR trope character that he seems to be.)
This would absolutely Minnesota, some time in the 1980s), at some point, if you haven't done it yet. So, in-game, the campaign timeline reached aroundbe interesting. We know that Dave kept his annual games going with the original group, but after moving to California (1984?), I don't know who he played with on a more regular basis. In the 1990s he moved to Florida to teach at Full Sail University where he met Dustin Clingman. I am not sure if they played D&D together before they formed Zeitgeist Games in 2004.
Yeah, things are pretty spotty. So there were some games played during the Adventure Games phase, but as I said, most of Dave's gaming was playtesting other games or playing Harchar in Tekumel. There was a series of crossover games where Chirine and company adventured in Blackmoor. I think Uther was a character Arneson made up to represent himself, but I don't know that it was ever more than a paper character. Anyone I've asked about it so far has no memory of the character in games.
It seems like after Arneson went to California his Blackmoor gaming was restricted to convention appearances. He was pretty heavily involved in his church in the '80's and a new father and husband. Of course he did do writing and other work for Tadashi Ehara.
Havard Wrote:TSR/Ritchie's influence is clear on the first couple of pages of each module where the connection to The Known World/Mystara and how to bring Known World PCs back to Blackmoor, but it is not apparent to me that TSR excerted a strong influence on the main parts of the adventures. It is a shame that we never got to interview Ritchie about this before he passed away. Regarding The Rand and the Iron Duke, we do know that that material was presented in modules DA1 and DA3 which were fully approved by Arneson.
I'm not sure what you are drawing on here. Arneson complained that he wasn't consulted by Ritchie on the final product and gave off pretty mixed signals about the content. I don't recall any information about him giving pre-print approval to any of the adventures, but I could be wrong.
Anyway, I think the adventures were influenced to varying degrees by TSR, but heavily reworked when it came to plot elements.
Temple of the Frog is probably closest to what Arneson sent in, and City of the Gods is possibly not far off either, but it is hard to say how much of the plot was his.
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - aldarron - 12-13-2020
Rafael Wrote:I also think that there was a player in the later stages of the original Blackmoor campaign. (The one that I've been referring to as "Phase III", 1978 until Marfeldt's exit from the campaign, some time in 1981 or 1982.)
Not quite sure what you are referring to here Rafe. Marfelt does "disappear" in the story after looting some vaults in Maus according to the DA description, but Marfelt was pretty much always a background character based on the circle of frenemies Arneson had in 1971. Specifically you had Randy Hoffa and Gregg Scott setting up a rival Napoleonics campaign and Bill Hoyt more or less joined them - so Arneson created the Egg of Coot and the Ran of Ah Foo as piss-takes on them along with the waffling lord WhiteHead (Note the initials).
Marshall Hoegfelt and Bill Hoyt were supposed have factions in the Blackmoor Campaign, per the March '71 letter to Kuntz. Hoegfelt however was, um, a difficult person at times and got thrown out bodily from the group, before any of the Blackmoor games really began in the summer/fall of '71. So Marfeldt the Barbarian also got a "bad guy" write up. Hoegfeldt never actually played the character with the other players. Maybe there were a couple of early games of some sort in the spring of '71, possibly wargames that took place without anyone elses knowledge and provided some of the basis or his FFC description, but more likely it was all just made up.
There are actually a number of, let's call them "tribute" characters in Blackmoor like that. Shepro na Peshwah, for example. The first time Ken Shepro sat down and actually played an RPG was for the Secrets of Blackmoor documentary. It makes it tough to know about certain of the more obscure characters.
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Havard - 12-14-2020
Aldarron Wrote:Yeah there are some interesting gaps there. At least a couple DA1 characters come from late Twin Cites gaming (1975+) like Laferie and Veslo, and you get a few more from the Adventure Game days, like Lortz and Fletcher William. Things in Blackmoor may not have develop as quickly or intensely as before, because Blackmoor games were less frequent than other games being playtested at Arnesons company.
Yes, very true!
BTW, do we know who Veslo was based on? Don't have my notes right now, but not sure if I ever pinned that one down.
Quote:Nevetheless I think we get a really good window on to the direction Arenson had taken Blackmoor with the two Garbage Pits of Despair adventures. It seems a sure bet these were originally among the 8 planed "Chronicle" adventures, and may have been the most developed and playtested, which is why Arneson could publish them separately.
So, while the information is limited, comparing what GPoD says about Blackmoor is a useful way to see some of the direction change TSR introduced. GPoD does not present the sort of tension between the Great Kingdom and Blackmoor we see in the DA series. GPoD is based around the idea that Blackmoor regular recruits new settlers from the GK.
Absolutely true. Garbage Pits is interesting since it was released in 1986, the same year DA1 and DA1 were published. Good point abut this adventure (does it count as two?) was part of the 8 adventure Chronicle. Discrepancies between GPoD and the DA series could account for differing visions between Arneson and Ritchie/TSR, but could it not also be a result of them being written at different times with Dave sending Different Worlds Magazine an older manuscript that for some reason was not considered for TSR publication? It might be worth checking with Tadashi Ehara about the full story of GPoD's publication. My assumption was that it was an attempt to boost the sales of the TSR modules and raise awareness of Blackmoor in general.
Quote:Yeah, things are pretty spotty. So there were some games played during the Adventure Games phase, but as I said, most of Dave's gaming was playtesting other games or playing Harchar in Tekumel. There was a series of crossover games where Chirine and company adventured in Blackmoor. I think Uther was a character Arneson made up to represent himself, but I don't know that it was ever more than a paper character. Anyone I've asked about it so far has no memory of the character in games.
I think this makes sense. I always thought the story of Uther vs the Great Kingdom echoed the story of Dave himself "rebelling" against TSR so in that sense it is interesting that this story made it in a publication by TSR. The close friendship between the heroes of Blackmoor, especially Svenny, and Uther supports the idea that Uther is meant to represent Dave.
Quote:It seems like after Arneson went to California his Blackmoor gaming was restricted to convention appearances. He was pretty heavily involved in his church in the '80's and a new father and husband. Of course he did do writing and other work for Tadashi Ehara.
True.
Quote:I'm not sure what you are drawing on here. Arneson complained that he wasn't consulted by Ritchie on the final product and gave off pretty mixed signals about the content. I don't recall any information about him giving pre-print approval to any of the adventures, but I could be wrong.
The basis of my theory is exactly this. Arneson complained that he wasn't consulted by Ritchie on DA4. I don't have the exact quote, but this lead me to believe that he did give final approval of DA1-3 or that he was at least happy with how these turned out.
Quote:Anyway, I think the adventures were influenced to varying degrees by TSR, but heavily reworked when it came to plot elements.
If we read the DA modules (including DA4) next to the ZGG books, the similarities in terms of background content are stunning. ZGG added material, but with a few explicit exceptions generally kept things very close to what we learn in the DA modules.
But you are right about the plot elements. It is possible that these were, added or at least reworked by TSR as you say. Characters could definitely have been added to serve such plot changes. It is possible that the Iron Duke is an example of this, but I would not put it above Dave to have created additional NPCs that were not based on real life people.
1970s adventures seem to have been structured more like Keep on the Borderlands or the original Temple of the Frog with much fewer story/plot elements than what became the norm in later decades. The DA modules are closer to the 1980s style of adventures, but I think the decision to make them into Companion Set adventures was clever. If you look at the other Companion Set adventures, many of those are also toolkit-type adventures ala KotB with only a handful of story elements. This is also true for the DA modules which offer tons of additional adventure options beyond the plot. DA1 is more railroady in that respect in that the Inn Between Worlds section is significant, but the overview of Blackmoor and NPC sections offers tons of more adventure potential.
Quote:Temple of the Frog is probably closest to what Arneson sent in, and City of the Gods is possibly not far off either, but it is hard to say how much of the plot was his.
I think that is probably correct. Note that DA3 does cover quite a bit about the lands of the Iron Duke. It could be interesting to compare the depiction of DA3 with Dave's earlier notes about adventures to the City of the Gods (FFC and Oerth Journal), but that is perhaps worthy of a separate topic?
-Havard
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - aldarron - 12-14-2020
Havard Wrote:BTW, do we know who Veslo was based on? Don't have my notes right now, but not sure if I ever pinned that one down.
Oh yeah, took me forever to figure it out. See this https://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=945
In short it's Wesely (Veslo). Back in 2010, Wesely told me the story of rescuing Lotsa the Elf maid and being rewaraded with a 24 hour marriage. The result of which was a female half-elf character he played later. The Half Elf is mentioned in the d20 books. I asked what the half elf's name was and he said (paraphrasing) "Martan Vessaloy or something like that." I took me forever to realiize what he told me was Veslo Meridan backwards and slightly garbled.
Havard Wrote:The basis of my theory is exactly this. Arneson complained that he wasn't consulted by Ritchie on DA4. I don't have the exact quote, but this lead me to believe that he did give final approval of DA1-3 or that he was at least happy with how these turned out.
Alright. My read on Arneson comments is that much like the Supp II Blackmoor edit with it's changes and added material, he accepted DA 1-3 as "okay but not exactly what he wanted".
Havard Wrote:If we read the DA modules (including DA4) next to the ZGG books, the similarities in terms of background content are stunning. ZGG added material, but with a few explicit exceptions generally kept things very close to what we learn in the DA modules.
Yeah, mostly so, and somewhere there is a discussion, (was it with Dustin Clingman?) where Zeitgeist games made the conscious decision not to rewrite/fix Blackmoor but to build on the DA material because of the ready made fan base and their expectations. It was a business decision.
-Havard[/quote]
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Rafael - 12-15-2020
Aldarron Wrote:Hoegfelt however was, um, a difficult person at times and got thrown out bodily from the group, before any of the Blackmoor games really began in the summer/fall of '71. So Marfeldt the Barbarian also got a "bad guy" write up. Hoegfeldt never actually played the character with the other players. Maybe there were a couple of early games of some sort in the spring of '71, possibly wargames that took place without anyone elses knowledge and provided some of the basis or his FFC description, but more likely it was all just made up.
Yeah, I know the stories. That said, it was my understanding that this happened in the early 1980s, close to Arneson's move away from St Paul - not in the 1970s.
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - Havard - 12-15-2020
Aldarron Wrote:Havard Wrote:BTW, do we know who Veslo was based on? Don't have my notes right now, but not sure if I ever pinned that one down.
Oh yeah, took me forever to figure it out. See this https://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=945
In short it's Wesely (Veslo). Back in 2010, Wesely told me the story of rescuing Lotsa the Elf maid and being rewaraded with a 24 hour marriage. The result of which was a female half-elf character he played later. The Half Elf is mentioned in the d20 books. I asked what the half elf's name was and he said (paraphrasing) "Martan Vessaloy or something like that." I took me forever to realiize what he told me was Veslo Meridan backwards and slightly garbled.
Brilliant! I did suspect the Wesely / Veslo similarities, but it is nice to get it confirmed and I hhad missed the name of that half elf. Thanks!
Quote:Havard Wrote:The basis of my theory is exactly this. Arneson complained that he wasn't consulted by Ritchie on DA4. I don't have the exact quote, but this lead me to believe that he did give final approval of DA1-3 or that he was at least happy with how these turned out.
Alright. My read on Arneson comments is that much like the Supp II Blackmoor edit with it's changes and added material, he accepted DA 1-3 as "okay but not exactly what he wanted".
Yep, this is the difference in our interpretation. As I recall it, I have never heard Dave express any dissatisfaction with DA1-3. All those quotes were related to DA4.
Quote:Havard Wrote:If we read the DA modules (including DA4) next to the ZGG books, the similarities in terms of background content are stunning. ZGG added material, but with a few explicit exceptions generally kept things very close to what we learn in the DA modules.
Yeah, mostly so, and somewhere there is a discussion, (was it with Dustin Clingman?) where Zeitgeist games made the conscious decision not to rewrite/fix Blackmoor but to build on the DA material because of the ready made fan base and their expectations. It was a business decision.
Again, Dusin was talking about DA4 and the Afridhi invaisions which they kept even though Dave had other plans for the Duchy. I do believe the Afridhi were part of his campaign, but as we have been speculating in the past, Dave's plans for the Duchy of Ten were probably linked to the Ran of Ah' Foo etc. We also know that Deborah Ritchie added details to Afridhi culture, but I have never seen Dave express explicit dissatisfaction with their portrayal at least. Greg Svenson once described his memories of the Afridhi in Dave's campaign as something akin to Devil Worshippers, but I don't know that much more about them. Toska Rusa was apparently based on a Deborah Nafziger.
Interesting naming conventions for female NPCs: "Toska, Lotsa (pun noted), Rissa.... "
Now, if we reject not just basic plotlines, but the majority of the DA modules as strongly deviant from Dave's vision of Blackmoor, I think the logical conclusion is also that the wast majority of the ZGG books need to be rejected given how closely they follow the DA modules. To me, that is too extreme an approach. In fact, I think the DA modules are likely closer to Dave's vision as they don't contain the changes required to adapt the setting to 3E which is more different from the way Dave ran his games than BECMI is.
Another question is how closely the DA modules and the entire King Uther era of Blackmoor follows events from actual gaming sessions. If that is the main point of interest rather than Dave's overall vision for his world, then I think it is better to stick to the FFC, Supplement II and tales from players alone. But I think that we can talk about Dave's visions for the setting beyond what he was able to run for his players.
-Havard
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - gsvenson - 12-15-2020
Rafael Wrote:Marshal's and Dave Arneson's clash was in the 1970-71 timeframe. Until the clash happened and he was expelled from the group, I had been driving Marshal to Dave Arneson's house for the gaming sessions. The incident with Marshal in the early 1980's happened at a gaming convention and got him thrown out of the convention. I don't really know any of the actual details of either incident, but I heard stories about both at the time they happened...Aldarron Wrote:Hoegfelt however was, um, a difficult person at times and got thrown out bodily from the group, before any of the Blackmoor games really began in the summer/fall of '71. So Marfeldt the Barbarian also got a "bad guy" write up. Hoegfeldt never actually played the character with the other players. Maybe there were a couple of early games of some sort in the spring of '71, possibly wargames that took place without anyone elses knowledge and provided some of the basis or his FFC description, but more likely it was all just made up.
Yeah, I know the stories. That said, it was my understanding that this happened in the early 1980s, close to Arneson's move away from St Paul - not in the 1970s.
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - aldarron - 12-15-2020
Greg did Marshall always rely on you for rides to Arneson's? If so that pretty much rules out any early Blackmoor games for "Marfeldt" since you would have been there and known about them.
Re: Tell me about the Iron Duke - gsvenson - 12-16-2020
I believe that I drove him to all of the sessions I was present at, but I don't think I was present when he and Dave clashed (or if I was, it wasn't obvious that it was happening), so he may have gotten rides to other sessions that I was not present for.