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+--- Thread: Blackmoor dungeon history (/showthread.php?tid=251)
- aldarron - 02-08-2010
Arguably each different Blackmoor must have a different time line to some extent. So Blackmoor + Wilderlands is not going to have the same history as Blackmoor + Great Kingdom or Mystara + Blackmoor or Greyhawk + Blackmoor or d20 Blackmoor (that's 5 more or less published versions!) or any attempts at blendings of the above. I'm cool with whatever somebody likes but my own preference is for Blackmoor + Great Kingdom, more or less in line with the original and my sense is that the timeline should just be a Cthonic age and a Present "rise of humans" age, but I like to keep things simple anyway.
- Havard - 02-08-2010
Aldarron Wrote:Arguably each different Blackmoor must have a different time line to some extent. So Blackmoor + Wilderlands is not going to have the same history as Blackmoor + Great Kingdom or Mystara + Blackmoor or Greyhawk + Blackmoor or d20 Blackmoor (that's 5 more or less published versions!) or any attempts at blendings of the above. I'm cool with whatever somebody likes but my own preference is for Blackmoor + Great Kingdom, more or less in line with the original and my sense is that the timeline should just be a Cthonic age and a Present "rise of humans" age, but I like to keep things simple anyway.
I can see not being interested in including the Wilderlands and Mystara stuff, but leaving out the DA series seems too purist to me. I also think the D20 line has too many good ideas to be ignored. While Arneson's level of involvement in the DA series and the D20 line may be debatable, it remains a fact that he was involved at some level or other. The historian in me says to use the primary sources first (ie FFC), but certainly not to ignore other sources.
Havard
- Rafael - 02-08-2010
Sure. But I am not the one to do that.
I mean, just the d20 line master script would be gold in this respect.
My personal way of doing my stuff works like this:
MMRPG < d20 books < Mystara stuff < DA series < WL stuff < FFC < C&C Society notes < Havard < Greg
- Havard - 02-08-2010
Rafael Wrote:Sure. But I am not the one to do that.
I mean, just the d20 line master script would be gold in this respect.
Oh, would I *love* to get my hands on something like that!
Quote:My personal way of doing my stuff works like this:
MMRPG < d20 books < Mystara stuff < DA series < WL stuff < FFC < C&C Society notes < Havard < Greg
Whoah, my name does not deserve to be up there next to Greg's. :oops:
Otherwise, pretty interesting model though. I like that you are considering all the sources. My own isnt too different, though I probably move the WL and C&C Society (Unless authored by Arneson) a bit further down the line.
I'm not that systematic either though. The overall rule is what is fun and cool to play with is what goes IMC
Havard
- aldarron - 02-08-2010
Havard Wrote:Yeah, basically I agree with you, and really am happy to accept a good bit of the zgg stuff, particularly from Wizards Cabal and Blackmoor Dungeons as they seem to have the most input from Dave himself. I'm not keen on some of the 3.5/4e fluff (like Docrea IMHO, hobbits are good enough for me). I dunno what to think of the DA stuff as I only have ToTF and its very TSR in character, but it only makes sense to look at all the later materials as sources of information, and where it doesn't contradict the FFC, seems to fit in with the character of early Blackmoor or comes directly from Dave, then its good. So for the DA material I cheat and rely on you guys excellent summaries and write ups.Aldarron Wrote:Arguably each different Blackmoor must have a different time line to some extent. So Blackmoor + Wilderlands is not going to have the same history as Blackmoor + Great Kingdom or Mystara + Blackmoor or Greyhawk + Blackmoor or d20 Blackmoor (that's 5 more or less published versions!) or any attempts at blendings of the above. I'm cool with whatever somebody likes but my own preference is for Blackmoor + Great Kingdom, more or less in line with the original and my sense is that the timeline should just be a Cthonic age and a Present "rise of humans" age, but I like to keep things simple anyway.
I can see not being interested in including the Wilderlands and Mystara stuff, but leaving out the DA series seems too purist to me. I also think the D20 line has too many good ideas to be ignored. While Arneson's level of involvement in the DA series and the D20 line may be debatable, it remains a fact that he was involved at some level or other. The historian in me says to use the primary sources first (ie FFC), but certainly not to ignore other sources.
Havard
- Havard - 02-09-2010
Aldarron Wrote:Yeah, basically I agree with you, and really am happy to accept a good bit of the zgg stuff, particularly from Wizards Cabal and Blackmoor Dungeons as they seem to have the most input from Dave himself. I'm not keen on some of the 3.5/4e fluff (like Docrea IMHO, hobbits are good enough for me). I dunno what to think of the DA stuff as I only have ToTF and its very TSR in character, but it only makes sense to look at all the later materials as sources of information, and where it doesn't contradict the FFC, seems to fit in with the character of early Blackmoor or comes directly from Dave, then its good. So for the DA material I cheat and rely on you guys excellent summaries and write ups.
I recommend DA1 in particular. The bad thing about thisone is that the information is scattered all over the place (since it is an adventure rather than a setting book). This means that alot of vital information about the setting is found in the NPC section for instance.
Note that with the exception of DA4, Dave Arneson was listed as an author on the cover the DA series which meant that Ritchie probably relied heavily on Arneson's notes. Apparently there were a few things in DA4 that Arneson was unhappy with, but it has never become clear what those things were. It is possible that this rumour has been emphasized by ZGG as part of a stratetegy for selling the "real DA4" at some point in the future. This never happened though.
Although I love the FFC, I like the fact that the DA series have taken that information and more and presented in a better organized and less humorous style. The FFC is a very enjoyable read, but the in-jokes means that you will have to change alot of things when running an actual campaign.
I agree with your comment on the Docrae. As they stand they are pretty much superflous. I have some ideas for modifying these so that they get more of a niche of their own.
Havard
- gsvenson - 02-09-2010
Havard Wrote:Apparently there were a few things in DA4 that Arneson was unhappy with, but it has never become clear what those things were. It is possible that this rumour has been emphasized by ZGG as part of a stratetegy for selling the "real DA4" at some point in the future. This never happened though.While Dave Arneson said he was not happy that Dave Richie did DA4 on
his own and that he would have made things flow a bit differently had he
been involved, he accepted it as Blackmoor canon after it was published.
I think that dealing with the results of DA4 was actually a big part of the
ZGG era material for the Blackmoor setting. A number of modules in the
MMRPG were centered around facing the Afridhi, for example. You have
the whole Brotherhood of the Greenwood thing, too. That all came from
DA4.
- Havard - 02-09-2010
gsvenson Wrote:While Dave Arneson said he was not happy that Dave Richie did DA4 on his own and that he would have made things flow a bit differently had he been involved, he accepted it as Blackmoor canon after it was published.
Ah, that explains things. Thanks!
Quote:I think that dealing with the results of DA4 was actually a big part of the ZGG era material for the Blackmoor setting. A number of modules in the MMRPG were centered around facing the Afridhi, for example. You have the whole Brotherhood of the Greenwood thing, too. That all came from DA4.
That makes sense. Comparing it with the FFC, Ritchie advanced the timeline while at the same time making the Afridhi the main threat while the Duchy of Ten were basically taken out of the picture. I can see things having developed differently, but if Dave accepted it, it doesn't make sense that we don't.
Interesting side note: I noticed in one of the old threads at the ZGG forum, Dustin saying that the lisence with WotC did not include the Duchy of Ten. Is that because Arneson didnt have his name on that module, you think?
Havard
- Rafael - 02-09-2010
Havard Wrote:Aldarron Wrote:Note that with the exception of DA4, Dave Arneson was listed as an author on the cover the DA series which meant that Ritchie probably relied heavily on Arneson's notes. Apparently there were a few things in DA4 that Arneson was unhappy with, but it has never become clear what those things were. It is possible that this rumour has been emphasized by ZGG as part of a stratetegy for selling the "real DA4" at some point in the future. This never happened though.
No, no.
It came out as a freeby called "The Grim Winter". :wink:
Havard Wrote:My own isnt too different, though I probably move the WL and C&C Society (Unless authored by Arneson) a bit further down the line.
The reason I do this is that the FFC and JG are complimentary to each other. You can find many ideas that are in Blackmoor (at least in the d20 line) very close or similar to many concepts of the JG world. (Clearly, with the number of modules released by JG, it's normal that some low-fantasy elements repeat themselves.)
Every time, I open a JG book, I find something I can use for Blackmoor.
But as I said earlier, this is just my take on those things.
- Havard - 02-09-2010
Rafael Wrote:No, no.
It came out as a freeby called "The Grim Winter". :wink:
Indeed!
Quote:The reason I do this is that the FFC and JG are complimentary to each other. You can find many ideas that are in Blackmoor (at least in the d20 line) very close or similar to many concepts of the JG world. (Clearly, with the number of modules released by JG, it's normal that some low-fantasy elements repeat themselves.)
Every time, I open a JG book, I find something I can use for Blackmoor.
Oh, I agree with that. Its just that I generally weigh the Mystara stuff higher than then WL stuff whenever there's a contradiction between those two. However for map purposes for instance, the WL is incorporated pretty much 100% on my "world map" and will be in future versions as well.
Quote:But as I said earlier, this is just my take on those things.
We all have our own versions and I think it is interesting to hear about yours and Aldarrons and Garolek's and everyone elses so I can steal what I like and throw away what I dont like
Havard