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+--- Thread: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! (/showthread.php?tid=1277)
Re: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! - aldarron - 08-10-2012
hock: winged monkey ghost from outer space?
That should teach me not to try to skim through posts quickly.
Well, if the object is a stone age setting, then go colder and drier with megafauna and cave men and/or giants. Cities of Sar-aigu, could work as the civilization and there should be some reptilian? civilization in the barrier swamp at some point. maybe that's sar-aigu too. 15-50000 seems a more likely timeframe.
Magic should really develop hand in hand with technology, much as science and medicine did in the real world.
Re: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! - Havard - 08-10-2012
Le Noir Faineant Wrote:One basic question about ancient fantasy worlds is always, why did technology not at some point substitute magic, especially, if we talk about an era of a few millenia?
Like, not everybody is gifted in magic, but everybody can invent a wheel.
So, why does the development stall at some point?
This is an interesting question, especially since Blackmoor is THE setting where this is simply not true. Blackmoor is about a fantasy world that actually does discover and develop technology, right?
Freedom92 already touched upon this, but to answer your question technology will only evolve if it provides an economic benefit. Slave based or Feudal economies tend work against technological advancement. The Romans knew about steam power, but did not explore it much because they saw no benefit from it in their slave based economy for instance.
-Havard
Re: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! - Rafael - 08-10-2012
Quote:This is an interesting question, especially since Blackmoor is THE setting where this is simply not true. Blackmoor is about a fantasy world that actually does discover and develop technology, right?
True, or, well, our accepted consensus here, for the humans. But is it also true for the other races?
Quote:The Romans knew about steam power, but did not explore it much because they saw no benefit from it in their slave based economy for instance.
That's not a bad comparison, but then again, what about basic infrastructural needs?
Like, Tolkien's immortal Elves would have to be kick-ass plumbers, for example. - I am not joking. Think about it.
Re: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! - Havard - 08-11-2012
Le Noir Faineant Wrote:Quote:This is an interesting question, especially since Blackmoor is THE setting where this is simply not true. Blackmoor is about a fantasy world that actually does discover and develop technology, right?
True, or, well, our accepted consensus here, for the humans. But is it also true for the other races?
Depends on the time frame.
My take is that with elves, magic does factor into things. Since almost all elves are able to use magic (at least by OD&D/BECMI standards), they are less likely to develop significant technology.
By 1030, Dwarves are already experimenting with steam tech, but they are very few in numbers due to their constant wars with the Orcs, so this might keep them somewhat limited in what they are able to accomplish.
Quote:Quote:The Romans knew about steam power, but did not explore it much because they saw no benefit from it in their slave based economy for instance.
That's not a bad comparison, but then again, what about basic infrastructural needs?
Like, Tolkien's immortal Elves would have to be kick-ass plumbers, for example. - I am not joking. Think about it.
Perhaps you can explain this further? The Roman Empire did develop quite sophisticated infrastructure, like roads, aqueducts and plumbing. This is a result of a large urban based civilization. The more rural oriented feudal kingdoms would have had less need for such things.
Do these questions link back to the idea of a Stone Age campaign?
-Havard
Re: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! - Freedom92 - 08-12-2012
Curious of what races would be around besides humans though as well as what classes would be acceptable to be around.Wokans, druids/shamans, druids, barbarians, clerics even, possibly almost every low tech material class and bards in the form of oral lore keepers.
Re: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! - Rafael - 08-12-2012
Wow, this got to be the longest lore post I make on any forum pretty much since the beginning of "The Promised Land".
Aldarron Wrote:
winged monkey ghost from outer space?
In the Wilderlands, the "first men" are, essentially, apes with wings, yeah. Think, Flash Gordon. Pretty funky, actually.
The space ghost, that's my interpretation, of course - because it is related to the only literally source we know absolutely sure,
and because it is comprehensible to the players on a very basic level, and opens many oportunities in terms of dramatic storytelling.
Essentially, the "Egg of Coot"/the Evershard's malevolent spirit in my game is "The Color out of Space" from Lovecraft, had it hit a spellshard...
Havard Wrote:Perhaps you can explain this further? The Roman Empire did develop quite sophisticated infrastructure, like roads, aqueducts and plumbing. This is a result of a large urban based civilization. The more rural oriented feudal kingdoms would have had less need for such things.
"Elves are plumbers" - this is actually not from me, but sort of a bonmot already: So, (in Tolkien) Elves are essentially, immortal angels, and they live forever.
The best civilization was the one they build immediately after arriving in Middle Earth, and every historical step from the past to the present only furthered the fall of grace.
- So, if they had the best civilization, and if they had the best functioning infrastructure, that implies they had the best toilets, too.
Havard Wrote:Do these questions link back to the idea of a Stone Age campaign?
Actually, yes, I think so, because it leads to questions about how one likes to depict historic progression:
For example, were the races of the gaming world created (like with Tolkien), or evolved (like in, say, Dragonriders of Pern)?
Or, does one stick to the "older is better" trope that nearly all post-Tolkien fantasy uses for precursor civilizations? Is the current age just an inferior mirror
of a past world (Numenor/Gondor, Valyria/Westeros), or, is it a result of positive evolution (like, where the dwarves simply goatherders before they discovered mining)?
Freedom92 Wrote:Curious of what races would be around besides humans though as well as what classes would be acceptable to be around.Wokans, druids/shamans, druids, barbarians, clerics even, possibly almost every low tech material class and bards in the form of oral lore keepers.
Essentially, the questions one would need to solve, as I understand it, would be:
1. Do we use a creationist, or a evolutionist model for "the beginning of time"?
2. Which races appeared where and how?
3. How evolved were those races when homo sapiens appeared?
4. How do we treat overall mythological aspects? In my specific model, for example, how old are the gods from the Blackmoor setting,
and are they based on legends about real individuals, or more, concepts of belief? - For example, much to Havard's chagrin, the LFC explains the myth
behind the Mystaran deity Ixion as the tale of an Ultron-like robot that got declared god king by a wild halfling tribe... :wink:
Re: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! - Freedom92 - 08-12-2012
I could see the idea of evolution being the core of creation, the fact the neanderthals were around and one of their own became a Immortal and humans also existed as well, so they could have a common ancestor and from what I understand the primal Immortals they don't have a true form, they just have forms so Ixion might appear human while a elemental cult might see him as a fire elemental like being of the sun.
Also what Immortals were of elemental origins? They probably be common in a stone age setting as nomadic tribes try to find new stomping grounds though what immortals are active then anyways?
Also maybe evolved reptilian races? Tie the carnifex into it, they might be those who 'uncovered' the secrets of evolution thus creating reptilian races through magic and temporal warped selective breeding.
Re: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! - aldarron - 08-13-2012
Aldarron Wrote:Magic should really develop hand in hand with technology, much as science and medicine did in the real world.
Me esplain more better:
Magic in a stone age setting should be crude and basic and mostly clerical/shamanic. Technology is required to advance the frontiers of magical study.
Re: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! - Freedom92 - 08-13-2012
Aldarron Wrote:Aldarron Wrote:Magic should really develop hand in hand with technology, much as science and medicine did in the real world.
Me esplain more better:
Magic in a stone age setting should be crude and basic and mostly clerical/shamanic. Technology is required to advance the frontiers of magical study.
More or less how magic in Conans Hyperboria works, most wizards are priest of Set and their way of using magic is usually invoking Set. Other mags did similar things depending on what school of magic they preformed, I remember those who worshipped Set dipped into necromancy, conjuration, and transmutation. The experiments they preformed on slaves were similar to warping the flesh of the slaves to make mindless slave beast. I think the oriental area of Hyperboria though approached divination and elemental magic through religious rites.
I support Aldarrons idea of making magic mostly clerical and shamanistic, make sorcerers 'mutants' who have latent blood that burns with outside influences. The idea of wizards are feared, they have the urge to go and find lost knowledge to filol their spell books and they hunger for more. They'd call outsiders on occasion and make deals, this could be a way to introduce outsiders besides randomly spawned elementals and the use of conjuring magic dealing with entropy and possibly the idea (pulling this from Dark Sun) Defiling if it suits your taste, or just stick with wild magic.
Re: Blackmoor in the Stone Age! - Rafael - 08-15-2012
Freedom92 Wrote:I could see the idea of evolution being the core of creation, the fact the neanderthals were around and one of their own became a Immortal and humans also existed as well, so they could have a common ancestor and from what I understand the primal Immortals they don't have a true form, they just have forms so Ixion might appear human while a elemental cult might see him as a fire elemental like being of the sun.
I wasn't thinking so much about some of the characters I (positively) raped for the LFC. but of Zugzul, the Afridhi god, to begin with.
Freedom92 Wrote:Also what Immortals were of elemental origins? They probably be common in a stone age setting as nomadic tribes try to find new stomping grounds though what immortals are active then anyways?
From the Mystara, WL, or WoB point of view?
Freedom92 Wrote:Also maybe evolved reptilian races?
In my campaign, I have the Sar-Aigu, and the Snakemen of Thracia, the later being 1-1 copies from Robert E. Howard's Shadow Kingdom.
Also, as my players can woefully recount, the Caverns of Thracia are located in Blackmoor in my version.
So, we could sure build on that.
Aldarron Wrote:Me esplain more better:
Magic in a stone age setting should be crude and basic and mostly clerical/shamanic. Technology is required to advance the frontiers of magical study.
Great point. It shows how little D&D writers know about anthropology, BTW. Not the magicians, sorcerers, whatever would have the magic closest to the sources,
but those learning it through oral tradition - which makes me think, do we have a bardic college in Blackmoor?